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Hi all. Since it is getting really goofy "out there", may I list the territories of the USA ? Please share with others. It is surprising to realize people do not know Puerto Rico is USA territory. Our kinsmen and fellow citizens at Puerto Rico still need our help! Please, if you can, help and also pray for their well being. Thanks: Puerto Rico is the USA . American Samoa is the USA. Guam is the USA. U.S. Virgin Islands is the USA. Northern Mariana Islands is the USA. Plus there are some nine identified and uninhabited other areas that are USA territory. All of that plus the fifty seven States that former President Obama states he visited are the USA despite the fact I only know of fifty of them Perhaps he included states of mind. I mention it as reminder that it really isn't a slander nor a strong political statement against the USA to wear a Puerto Rico flagged shirt in the continental United States nor Alaska, nor Hawaii. It is not the making of a claim of open borders at all. Really. Even if it was, so what, many cherish flags of their home States, Texas as example, well maybe a bad example there ( LOL) . [My sweet Texas Peach bride is my Texan]. Locally there is all sorts of Scotsman celebration with flags etc. It really is not a threat to sovereignty of a nation, nor of God's sovereignty over all things, really. Kind of nice to have some fondness for a home locale, even if it comes with a Bostonese accent like mine. We are many individuals with numerous dialects and a few distinct languages. - Each in need of the grace and mercy of God. Loving each other extra for our differences can be fun! So much so for me that I married one. She can't hardly understand me and I seldom know where she is going until the end of a full sentence. I often get even that wrong, but it is fine fun. Let's enjoy how God has differently created each of us, encourage others to do likewise if you have opportunity. Thanks.

Dear Equippers, I had the "privilege " of meeting God, by way of losing family members to sudden deaths, and by being dragged across country to tend to family needs, having my own career up ended, and finding myself working in an industry that I did not know, with 11 hostile partners, and a business to run and sell. My own breaking point in my own denial of God and sin against Him was reached when I was in screaming pain from my chronic back issues and as I considered ending my life if I could only just move instead of scream. I was challenged by what I now think was an angel, who was used of the Holy Spirit to turn me about to God right then and there. I did not then become privileged on earth. Instead I faced five years of civil court battles at State and federal levels, and loss of a small fortune. Only to then be dragged back across country to my old career to do a little something only I could do at a church there. And I did not greatly prosper even then, nor become privileged for that either. Instead I was stuck two years paying for a home clean across country from where I now had to live again. Eventually I was once again called to move back across country, and I started yet another career. In the process of life I have had six careers, suffered many injuries, had many personal hard losses of loved ones, and physical assets, many times over. Through it all I have never received anything but excellent Bible counsel which I do cherish, nor have I been led to anything but wondrously fine local bodies of Christ Jesus. That is not a judgement by me of anyone. It is a declaration that I have never had bad biblical advice. I cling to the word of God as it is revealed by the Holy Spirit as I read and pray. May God ease your pain. May the Holy Spirit guide you to many saints that do have love of neighbor and stranger alike on their hearts, and knowledge through the reveal of Jesus by the Holy Spirit to share and to comfort each other, all under the leadership of some blessed to the high responsibility of being an excellent elder pastor teacher and counselor. In that area, yes I am blessed for God has provided the perfect provision for my need each day. And I thank God.

Yes, that is the plan against all of us; get us worked up "against" instead of "for" each other. We do not battle against flesh and blood ...

Lol not so. we have fairly high rates for license plates. Typically folks try and get out of state plates or refuse to relinquish them in order to avoid paying the vehicle plate fee. For the record, mike and I never did that. We obey the law and have az plates.

BTW, that verse about "preaching in season and out of season" was given to a young man who was specifically chosen by God and was being taught and trained as a regular preacher over lots of people. We tend to like to think that any message in the Bible was written specifically to each and every one of us. They weren't. Despite the fact that some of us think we can get away with doing anything and everything specific people in the Bible were told to do... you will notice even the fanatics do it selectively. You have never yet seen one of them beating a rock with a stick to try and get water out of it, have you? Or seen one of them throw a stick on the ground so it will turn into a snake? Or stand at the beach and part the waters. God made it kind of clear what He intended all of us to be doing.... but we have to read to determine those things.

One small detail...…. Believing in Jesus' ability to save those He wants in His family, is not "hoping against hope." It is trusting that Jesus is stronger than us and knows more than we do.

I'm pointing out the trouble with Pretrib, the same things I examined over the years which led me to the conclusion the doctrine is wanting in many ways. I understand the order as spoken by Jesus concerning the end of the age. That's not an examination. It's more like doctrinal policy as it ignores the real issues. The preceding paragraphs assume the 70th week and God's wrath are equivalent. In that case your arguments have an internal consistency, even as the conclusions are incorrect. If you are going to continue in the belief the 70th week and the wrath of God are one and the same you will never reach accurate conclusions about the end of the age, and there might be little anyone can say to change your mind. Further, it's problematic for the doctrine to hold to any kind of equality in the brothers and sisters of the faith. Paul was speaking to the 'brothers and sisters', as I pointed out earlier, and obviously not to EVERYONE. It's manifest we would only be speaking about those following Jesus in truth as Paul wasn't addressing segregation in the body, nor those who believe not. In that case your arguments fail as Paul would have been only speaking to the faithful when he said we are not appointed to wrath. Now, if you can find an example in scripture that has a book, chapter and verse reference that says 'lukewarm Christians' are destined to the wrath of God then I'll examine the reference. Were you making a point? I don't see one. Is this in reference to the semantic game of 'pouring out wrath through tribulation'? It does not matter how many times 'wrath' appears if one divorces the word from context. But I guess it's better than dealing with the problems of the doctrine. One huge problem is the martyrs at the 5th seal if one demands all the 70th week equates to wrath. God's wrath is now the action resulting in the death of the martyrs if the entire last week is God's wrath. Now one could never say these martyrs were lukewarm, not watching, life a mess, not walking after Jesus, etc, etc. These martyrs are lauded for their great strength in the Spirit of God and complete faithfulness in Jesus and our Father, to wit: "9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:" But it's even more than this; "they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled." Not only have these staunch, powerful, faithful martyrs died for the Lord and their testimony of the Lord, it's not over, more are going to die for Jesus and in His name. Your way of thinking has these people being killed during God's wrath. Not refined and tried and tested like one would expect of the less than faithful believer, killed by the wrath of God through tribulation, as you put it. These martyrs are obviously, abundantly, faithful and found under the altar in the throne room. Is it your contention that the Pretrib adherents are as faithful and true? And what about the 100,000 faithful that die in Jesus name every year, in this age? Where is their Pretrib rapture? Are they lukewarm because they had to die for Jesus? Are they not watching for the Lord and so deserve death? Is their house in disorder so they had to be killed for their faith? What other conclusion can be drawn but that of an elite group that will not experience tribulation while their faithful brothers and sisters are dying all around? And where is that in scripture? But concerning wrath, you know it only begins at the 6th seal, yes? Wrath comes only after the martyrs are all slain for Jesus. No where does scripture say wrath begins before the 6th seal, and at the 7th trumpet coincidentally. So what book, chapter, and verse do you know that tells us wrath begins at the first seal? Or any time other than at the 6th seal, deep into the end of the age, and after the deaths of countless faithful followers of Jesus?

up until the middle 1800's when you picked a grape three things happen..... you eat it is short time, make alcoholic wine from it, or it turns itself into vinegar...... You can play with the words all you want but those are the historical facts about the grape..... One does not get drunk/intoxicated by drinking wine or beer in moderation.... and the Bible is speaking of that when it speaks of wine and whether or not to drink. it is a misrepresentation to use the Bible as abstinence from alcohol completely..... not to abuse alcohol is a different story. Prov 31:6-7 6 Give strong drink to the one who is perishing, and wine to those in bitter distress; 7 let them drink and forget their poverty and remember their misery no more. ESV New Wine from Jewish History and the meaning of the words in the Bible is wine that was made in the year the grape was picked.... it still has some sugar in it and when you drink a bit too much that sugar pulls the alcohol quickly into your blood stream and gives you a very intoxication.... Boons Farm Wine is an example of new wine and it really interferes with your thinking when drinking much of it. But it is always stated that one should not drink in excess.

Hey all first time poster. I've been going to church my whole life, saved at 15, and recently baptized publicly, late 30s. I've been seeking additional counsel online and stumbled on another website where I received really poor non-christian advice that led me down a path of anger, resentment, and distrust. So I'm coming over here now to reinforce advice that is faith-based. It turns out that all of that advice was bad, and very inaccurate. Long story short, my wife feels like she lost love for me a couple years ago after we had kids. Maybe it is midlife crisis, post-partum, or us just not working hard enough on the marriage after coming down off the high of the "in love" feeling. Since May we have been battling this in a variety of ways - fights, counseling, cordial discussions, then back to fighting again. Divorce has been threatened a few times, to the point where we actually discussed the terms of an uncontested divorce. For the past 6 weeks it has been a loveless, sexless marriage. I feel deserted and hopeless. Some days I have knots in my stomach and can't sleep and it causes me to lose weight. I feel like I don't have the stamina to stick this out. I pray on it. And at times I am able to regain strength for a period of time, but it subsides again. I'm a very logical, driven person, that does a lot of reading and works really hard to fix things. My wife on the other hand is a retreater. She finds it hard to follow through on reading the counselor assigned books, she shuts down easily, is entirely guided by emotions, and gets into a rut very easily and cannot get out. I tried being very passive for the last 2-3 weeks, to stop pursuing her so she could relax and feel like she wanted me again. It didn't work. Now I am taking a very active stance and I'm forcing certain exercises on her. For example, we were assigned the 5 languages of love book, and I am making us do all those recommendations of making love deposits. I also feel like my wife's faith and trust in God is weaker than mine. She is embarrassed to pray with me. She won't see a church counselor, only the therapists at the doctor's office. She doesn't have any friends or family that know how to give good Christian advice. We go to church on Sunday and she says she believes, but she just won't surrender to God. I admit, I am not very good at surrendering either, probably none of us are, but I know I'm much further along in trying to become more christ-like. I'm not sure what will happen next, but both of us are at the end of our rope, and we are terrified of divorce. Neither of us have abandoned the other person (physically). We need help!

People not all that versed in Christianity really don't understand that the Bible actually can be used to "prove" just about anything at all. And sometimes the very same verse/verses can be (and often is/are) used to justify either loving or hating someone or their lifestyle. There is a saying that I think is more than true: "You will find (and worship) the god you look for."

I could not have said it better myself. Especially when we see that some future events are specifically sealed. Who knows exactly what those seven thunders said and what effect they might have concerning timings and events. Revelation 10:4 And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.

That's pretty much how I see it as well. I add the nuance of it being divided into two 3.5 year periods. The first being the tribulation period, also the wrath of satan against the church. This is followed by the rapture at the beginning of Revelation 7, followed by the wrath of God on everyone who is left. But seeing as how we're talking about interpretation of prophesy, if it happens differently I wouldn't be surprised. I don't see prophesy as there to "predict the future". Rather, I see it as there to prove God's power and sovereignty. I don't think there was a person alive (other than possibly John the Baptist, and only possibly) that accurately predicted Jesus as he actually came to be with us and was killed and resurrected. I think the same thing will happen regarding the 70th week. We all have our theories, but I think it will happen in ways none of us expected or imagined. But I do think it is important to study it so we will know it when we see it. And we are admonished to watch and prepare.

Tyler, Take the time to reread *Neighbor's* post here. He said some very important things... especially the phrase about being careful not to run to emulate some other Christian. God made you to be special, yourself, and not a "carbon copy" of someone else.

Hi, How to treat others, and how will others treat you will be two different things altogether! As you will find you cannot participate nor will you want to participate in things that others of the world will want to enjoy, you will find yourself excluding and being excluded at times. That is really good at two levels; one you don't want to be involved in certain happenings and activities of the world. Plus secondly, the world is recognizing that you are different that you are a child of God a bond-servant of Jesus. You will still have love and friendship for your acquaintances. It is a burden at times, and it is a privilege as well. The joy of knowing God comes at the price of the world knowing you know God. Take your time in emulating any Christian, take time to read study pray and seek the lead of the Holy Spirit as you do. The word of God learned, is your armor, learn of it polish it well and wear it. It is not easy it don't expect it to be, but persevere in the faith of your savior Jesus to God's glory as it pleases Him. May God bless you greatly. Amen.

So then please! Shed some light if ya have any to shed ?? I’m really needing some “good news” right now and I was really thinking that that was it. I mean if you look at something like Titus 3:5-8 what am I missing? I feel it is important that we understand what "repentance" actually is. If you like, I can PM you an article that puts a clearer light on it than most of the explanations I've read. But, first, I am curious as to what you believe the word "repent" means.

Phil 4:8. Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable--if anything is excellent or praiseworthy--think about such things. 1 thes 5:18. give thanks in all circumstances; for this is God's will for you in Christ Jesus.

They say our bodies repair themselves as we sleep, sounds right to me. However, some of us are just night owls! I've always been one although never staying up this late before. Seems like when we keep changing the clock for Daylight Savings, I just stay up later and later! California is thinking of perhaps keeping the time the same...like in Arizona! P.S. Since coming to Worthy, I stay up later, too! Such interesting posts and people!

Sleep is for sissies.

Now I need the option of being able to select both the laugh icon plus the thumbs up one for the same post. Flagstaff Arizona was a stop on my way to Anaheim, California from Boston, Mass., early January of 1960. It had more snow on the ground than did New England, deep snow, and cold, wow it was cold. Then we entered the desert with it's billboards warning "last Chance for water for 300 miles" standing just barely above the near four foot of snow on the desertscape. Looked just like home to me 'cept the "trees" were prickly tall cactus instead of white birch and yellow pine. We ate there at an old log steakhouse where you picked your own cow. I was used to picking my own lobster, but not my own cow. I still remember the smells of that trip, and Arizona too cold for any smell except one's own frozen breath. People seemed nice there, all dressed out for some cowboy event I guess. Their hats were different than mine- didn't have the ear flaps for one thing - no not really; no one wore hats at Boston, we just went around with a pile of frozen snow and hair greases plastered on our heads back then. Everyone is unique, different, yet all are the same- same need, Jesus as Lord God and savior.

The problem is that God loves sinners but hates their sins. That is why God provided Jesus to wipe out our sin and confer on us His righteousness, so that we can be in God's presence and He can live in us. So God really loves and pities your gay friends and wants them to come to repentance. However, when you are listening to the Holy Spirit and allowing Him to guide you, He will open up opportunities to witness to them. Sometimes they even ask you questions. At times like that I say a quickie prayer: " God, give me Your words--" Then I trust Him to give me what I need to say. But without God's holy love for them dwelling in you, your words will be empty noise. So do keep praying for your friends that they be saved. Ask God to open their eyes and prepare their hearts. Salvation is a free gift. God saves us because we need His help. We can't earn salvation. We come as we are and He changes our desires to conform to His will. Then we learn to follow His Spirit as He draws us. He usually starts by leading us to turn away from our sin and desiring His forgiveness through Jesus. Then He may create a hunger for the Bible, for being baptized, and for fellowship with other Christians. We may even have more love for our old friends because of God's love growing in us, but often our old friends reject us. That is hard, but just pray for them more, care for them anyhow, and forgive them. That is what Jesus did.

As you know Frances, we talked about that some in Chat, However, I will try to get around to commenting here as well, not promises, and not guess on when. Possibly not before next week if I do it! Perhaps someone else will comment. Thanks for participating, that is good for the club, and I appreciate it.

I would suggest you take your wife to a "Weekend to Remember" seminar to strengthen your relationship with your wife. I have known of people who had filed for divorce and stopped it after attending one of these weekends https://www.familylife.com/weekend-to-remember/ One of my cousins was involved with the program and talked us into attending and even though we were not having problems in our marriage it did bring us into a tighter relationship. One of the things I learned that kept from turning into a problem was to meet in a secluded quite place and talk..... and one of the things I was to ask was, "What have I stopped doing that would stifle your love..... and I got an ear full..... and we are still married after 48 years..... and I think partly from the information she gave me that day.... and since I had asked her it also opened up where we could talk openly without fighting..... but you have to swallow your pride a bit some times.... Another thing I have learned over the years is that pushing being right about something sometimes has a price tag that is not worth winning an argument.....

I actually agree and thank you for sharing! I have to remember sometimes that Jesus didn’t come to save the already righteous...he blatantly came to deliver SINNERS to repentance and salvation. So they’re the ones that need it most (and since we’re all sinners I guess we all need it). It’s truly good news. Thank you for the responses! Bless ?

You already know that "The Good News" (Gospel) was sent to all people, That is stated and restated all through the Bible.

Thank you so much! I love the message! I just wish there was some way I could...save them myself because ya know as I said they’re kind and decent folks. They just don’t all believe...I guess I should just leave it to God. Try and live as an example and show them God’s love and “point them to you (God)” when questioned. Thank you again for the advice and musical selections ?. This is a great community! Blessings!

It's the goodness of God that leads us to repentance. (Rom 2:4) God in His goodness has made His Will known through His Works and His Word. Our conduct as Christians is important, and from your OP, Tyler it seems you have a desire to live according to the Will of God, so make this known to those around you. Don't pussyfoot around. Preach the Word in season and out of season, whether popular or not. Here are some verses that I hope you already know, and hope will continually help you: 1Pe 3:14-17 (14) But and if you suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are you: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled; (15) But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asks you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: (16) Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ. (17) For it is better, if the will of God be so, that you suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.

I suppose so. And thank you for bearing with me. I must sound frantic and that’s only because I sort of am...I love these people and they’ve done a lot for me over the years. They’re decent people (by human standards I suppose and not God’s). I want them to be saved. I think I should just take the problem to God in prayer and HOPE against all hope that he touches their lives and they see the truth ?... thanks again. It’s always refreshing to have people actually engage in helping me with such issues ?. Bless!

So, don't. For now, just treat them with the same kindness and love you have for years before. News Flash: You cannot "convert" them. Nor can you "make them change their ways." And you know what? God knows that.

Hi Tyler, Do you know the song "What A Friend We Have In Jesus"Jump to search by Joseph Medlicott Scriven, (10 September 1819 – 10 August 1886) . The message about prayer is clear. The battle is the Lord's so we give Him our support, making sure we have our spiritual armour on daily (Eph 6), but we do not engage the enemy in our own strength or take on burdens the Lord hasn't given us. (Matt 11:30) What a friend we have in Jesus, All our sins and griefs to bear! What a privilege to carry Everything to God in prayer! Oh, what peace we often forfeit, Oh, what needless pain we bear, All because we do not carry Everything to God in prayer! Have we trials and temptations? Is there trouble anywhere? We should never be discouraged— Take it to the Lord in prayer. Can we find a friend so faithful, Who will all our sorrows share? Jesus knows our every weakness; Take it to the Lord in prayer. Are we weak and heavy-laden, Cumbered with a load of care? Precious Savior, still our refuge— Take it to the Lord in prayer. Do thy friends despise, forsake thee? Take it to the Lord in prayer! In His arms He’ll take and shield thee, Thou wilt find a solace there. Blessed Savior, Thou hast promised Thou wilt all our burdens bear; May we ever, Lord, be bringing All to Thee in earnest prayer. Soon in glory bright, unclouded, There will be no need for prayer— Rapture, praise, and endless worship Will be our sweet portion there.

What is keeping you from treating them "with kindness and love?"

Bless you frienduff........YES...there is NO OTHER NAME by which man can be saved.....not priests, not Popes, not saints, not Mary.......only Jesus Christ and He alone.

I find myself in agreement. One must learn how to fear the lord first before they begin to understand, and from there, the love grows. Matthew 16:24 "Then Jesus told his disciples, 'if anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and pick up his cross daily and follow'." That denial of self is much more easier said than done, and far too many people are fond of neglecting that part.

And what ROME wants to hide is SHE alone was the cause of this . SHE put gay men into positions . cause they were so called celibit , as she requires her leaders to be . I dare anyone to investigate . WAS it mostly same sex abuses . YES IT WAS . it was men on boys . GAY MEN . facts are facts . Cause twisted perverts who are hetrosexual will touch lil girls . Not same sex , UNELSS that demon is already IN THEM . IT WAS . SO much for seeker friendly . its opened the doors to this stuff . HONORING same sex , WATCH OUT for the kiddos , things will keep getting worse . YEAH, many men are same sex or all sex this generation is just lost in lust big time . Watch out for the kiddos . You never know . WE SHOULD NEVER have taken GOD OUT , this nation , churches , its reaping , its reaping what it sowed . EVIL is flooding the places .

To taste Islam is to taste its oppression, the fate of Islam is its annihilation as happens with al lies, a lie may last a days, weeks, months, years, centuries, but it is always destined to be exposed. The truth however lasts forever.

It is our belief, as the scriptures have said, And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. Weather it be in or outside any Church, Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. 20For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

It is only unknown to those in darkness. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief. 1 Thessalonians 5:4 Seems that you lean waaaay too heavily on the teachings of men.

Genesis 5:12 "When Kenan lived 70 years, he fathered Mahalel."

Thank you so much @Christine.

Hi Preacherm@n. Mate, if you die in your medical condition, before you receive help or are healed, and from your post I see you are looking for God, YOU WILL NOT GO TO HELL.

I believe you are quite right. When Jesus ministered on the earth, much of His time and effort was to the offscouring of the world. This irritated the outwardly righteous looking Pharisees to no end. But what Jesus told them confirms what you have just said. The prostitures, the drunkards, the tax collectors not only listened but hung on every word. Why? Because they knew they had need of a doctor, and they realized He was the great physician. But the Pharisees, they assumed that they were actually quite pleasing to God and did not need a physician at all. Andrew Murray once wrote that of all the sins, religious pride was the hardest to be freed from, because it was that pride that prevented one from seeing their great need. Is it hopeless for those who think they have need of nothing when they assume all is great between them and the Lord, even as willful sin still lives in their lives? Not at all! In these last days, we will all be awakened to our true state. The sheep, no matter how they have previously lived, will admit their great need and cry out for deliverance from their contentment without godliness. Others, the tares, will understand that to truly walk with the Lord, hating their own life, and declaring their own righteousness as of no value, will be a mountain they simply cannot or will not want to scale. Some will walk away altogether, others will simply cling to their religious life, full of head knowledge but devoid of the fruits of God. this is the valley of decision, when each one of us will finally understand what the cost of our salvation really is. The sheep will count the cost.... and gladly pay it. The goats will insist there is no cost, when in truth they are simply trying to avoid paying it. And what is that cost? Us.... our carnal self, our old nature Blessings, Gids

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Marilyn, I'm sorry, but nothing that Jesus, John, or Paul says gives any indication that there will be many turning to Christ during the period of unprecedented persecution that Jesus called great tribulation. In fact, all that they say makes it very clear that the opposite will be happening. Many shall be departing from the faith. There are at least four reasons that many will not be coming to Christ in the great tribulation. Please note that the great tribulation begins in the middle of the last seven years of this age, a time we call Daniel's seventieth week. This time will be characterized by the domination and persecution of the saints of God by the Beast, the False Prophet and those that follow the Beast. In His Olivet Discourse, Jesus spoke much about this future period of unprecedented persecution. Matthew records Christ's details of the unparalleled "trouble" (Dan 12:1) beginning in Matt 24 verse 9. Christ continues speaking in the context of that period until verse 29. 1) Violent persecution will cause many to fall away Jesus says that after the beginning of sorrows violent persecution would come upon His followers (my name's sake) and that we would be hated by all nations Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. The "therefore" in verse 15 connects it back to verses 9-14. Beginning in verse 15, Jesus provides more detail concerning the unprecedented nature of this future persecution of the elect. He references Dan 9:27 for its starting point. He says that the persecution will be unprecedented (vs 21). He says that the period of unprecedented persecution will threaten to extinguish the elect from the earth (vs 22). He says that the days of this unparalleled persecution will be shortened to save some of the elect alive upon the earth (vs 22). Note that this persecution will not only be focused upon Christians, those who call upon the name of Jesus Christ, but also upon the inhabitants of Judaea (Israel) (Matt 24:16, 20). Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. The result of this persecution and hatred would cause many to be offended, that is, fall away from the faith. Those who apostatize will hate and betray the saints. Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. It should be noted that Jesus said in the parable of the soils (Matt 13), that those who received the Word with Joy into the stony ground were offended when persecution came. The meaning of offended in this context is to depart from the faith. They gladly embraced the Gospel until there was a cost associated with their identification with Christ, at which point they fell away. Mat 13:20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Mat 13:21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. 2) Rather than many coming to Christ many will fall away due to the great deception of the false prophets and the false Christ's. That deception will be so great that if it were possible even the truly elect would be deceived. Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before. Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. Paul reiterated Christ's teaching concerning an apostasia (a departure from the faith), at least, in part, caused by signs and lying wonders 2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. Jesus says that His arrival at His coming will be unmistakable. So don't believe men's false reports. He says that the unprecedented persecution would be over when the cosmic sign is witnessed, for that heralds His appearing in the clouds with the holy angels to gather His elect to Himself. Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Please take notice that "the tribulation of those days" in context is the unprecedented persecution that Jesus calls great tribulation in verse 21. 3) It is implied by Christ that when He comes there will be few if any believers left upon the earth. Luk 18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? Luk 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth? John describes that he sees the martyred saints crying out for vengeance at the opening of the fifth seal. Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. They are told that they would have to wait a little season for vengeance to come. Paul describes the vengeance coming at Christ's revelation, the very day that the church rests from persecution. 2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. 4) Paul said that God would be sending strong delusion to those who believed not the truth, the context being the period of time around Christ's arrival. 2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. There are only a few references that lend to any being saved during the great tribulation. These being saved are the remaining Gentiles added to the body of Christ (the fulness of the gentiles), and all Israel (the third remaining who will be brought through the fire and refined). Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: The fact that the Gospel continues to be preached until the end of the age provides an indication that some will be saved. Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. Hallelujah

i actually had something sorta like that

The pastor I mentioned that said the Bible was proven wrong....he once had people in the congregation write their questions down and instead of a sermon, he read each question and answered them. He didn't answer any of the questions using Scripture!! He gave his own thoughts which were not based on Scripture. I felt sorry for the people who had asked the questions....like one person asked what happens after we die. Another person asked if it's ok to go to a medium!! He didn't have any idea what happens after death and said so. He gave a wish-washy answer about the medium.... didn't say the Bible condemns such practices or that it's dangerous. Those two questions I still remember.... I went to one church that had young people. When I exited the subway way across the large intersection from the church, I heard all of this racket/noise. I thought oh I hope that's not coming from the church! It was!! The music was so loud that I waited in the lobby until it was over...still so loud but would have been loud on the street, too! So that was the only time I went there. I do want to say that there are still good churches and godly pastors, but hard to find in my neighborhood.

Hmm . . . okay, I'll have a go. Quick background first: I grew up in a military family and we moved every few years, so I practically grew up everywhere but the US. That includes the UK, Germany, Australia when I was a kid. I spent just under 15 years in the US Air Force and again went all over the world - but as a believer by then. This is a short version, so forgive me if things aren't as clear as they might be. What makes a non-Bible believing church? Any church that is not following what we find in the Bible as far as how we as believers should live and serve the Lord and each other. I don't have an exact definition for that since we're all at different places in our walks with the Lord. The Bible leaves a lot of room for NT worship, and I think God had a reason for that. I have been to worship services in many countries and when the Lord is honored you know it. That includes a sermon I once heard in a cathedral all the way to the gatherings we would have on deployments wherever we could find the time or place to do so. Garages, aircraft hangars, maintenance shops, open fields, aboard a ship at sea, the place doesn't really matter as much as the people because the people are the church, not the building. That feeling of something being "off" can be an alarm bell depending on how well you know your Bible. Truth exposes error. In the end its all about Jesus anyway. It all boils down to who gets the glory. A couple of examples: I visited a church where the biggest concern wasn't the folks dying without Christ outside, but the color of the carpet to buy. I was somewhat shocked to find that many in that church were also blatantly racist. Another congregation I attended for over 2 years went "seeker friendly" and watered down the gospel. When I asked about it I was told, "We like the numbers and we're going with this." While looking for a new church after a move I checked out one church that fully condoned the gay lifestyle - while ignoring what the Bible says on the subject. And on it goes . . . and its not getting better either. The last time I had to change churches it took about a year and a half to find the one I go to now. While I may not agree with them on everything, there is the preaching of the Bible (as the Word of God,) the sacraments, and the fellowship of believers without which I don't do so well.

My family tried out several churches last year. Below are a few characteristics encountered, each from a separate church. One sermon was a 'life lesson' from the pastor that made sense but had no basis in the bible. Repeat each Sunday. One service was 90 minutes long but included only a few minutes of reading bible verses. There was no discussion or lesson. Most of the service was singing or asking for tithes. One church explained a complicated process to join and that screened out many people that weren't married, were divorced, had 'inappropriate' histories, etc. The service was very ritualistic and the message was difficult to understand in all the rituals. One service involved a detailed scripture discussion with a classroom style question and answer part, but the discussion and answers involved much added content and interpretation beyond the bible One service was very friendly, charismatic, and as loud as many rock concerts. The message was very emotional and bible based, but the volume was too painful. We did find a bible based church eventually, but it took some searching.

I live in a smallish town that is famous for its high quality wines (its also known for making the best coffee in South Africa ). It's a big industry here. To each his own. I personally like wine tasting (I tend to like a good shiraz) and I drink champagne on special occasions. I can understand why people would be careful and I certainly wont insist on drinking if I was with people who are sensitive to such things. The thing is I tend view alcoholic drinks from the perspective of a connoisseur. It goes with bread, chocolate, cheese and good food and coffee afterwards. Things you can taste little bits of. I go for quality not quantity. I wouldn't even try cheap things. The irony is that the higher quality wine, for example, tends to have less alcohol. I have never even been tempted to drink more than I can handle. Just giving my perspective for what it's worth. The risk varies from person to person and genetics plays a very strong role there. No alcoholics in my family as far as I know.

My input is a difficult one, as i'd really like to separate myself from my bias. I look on alcohol with rather extreme distaste, a look I realise is unreasonable, due to previous unpleasant experiences. I would much rather avoid going into detail, but suffice it to say, I want nothing to do with alcohol or people who are currently drinking alcohol. They're fine so long as they haven't had a sip, mind, I just don't want to be around the drink at all. That's what makes it difficult though; I don't wish to be unreasonable. That being the case, i'd most certainly buy into the other posts here saying that a person should never touch the stuff. It seems to be a slippery slope, one which many are unable to not slip down. There are the exceptions though. Plenty of folks just enjoy a glass of wine here and there, maybe just a social drinker who only has one can, you name it. A select few who can control themselves quite well, and I take no issue with that, so long as i'm not present (again, I want nothing to do with it). The way I see things - If you can help it, you probably should. If there's room for improvement, why hold back? That mindset applies to many things, if not all of them.

You missed it, cm. I played devils advocate. Exposing hypocrisy. I defend honesty, not Pharisaic judgement. I notice the tendency of many to abstain from those outward visible "detestable lifestyles " seems to give so many a sense of pride. My father was alcoholic all my life, to the grave. I had no relationship, whatever. I do understand. My point, is simply, in most churches, drunkenness is not an issue. Why I ask about do you know more drunks, or overweight, or gossipers or judgemental's etc. Gluttony, backbiting, judging, gossiping, etc are tolerated, or simply accepted. Even that I believe is not the biggest church problem. Materialism. Both parents employed to afford to keep up with the Jones's home and neighborhood big screen etc, kids raised by the day care, or gov schools, hectic pace. Then later, the broken marriages, divorce rate matching the lost. We tend to focus on the outward. God focuses on the inward. (Which will change the outward) Mat 23:27-28 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

well, there is a point to be made, about the perception of evil....and you know what, if your a christian and your in the bar every friday night, even if you stop at one or 2, it can give the perception of drunkeness, which is a sin. However, at least where Im at, if im at Ruby Tuesdays or buffalo wild wings, and I order a margarita or a glass of wine with my meal, the only people that will look down on me for it are other christians, and I suspect, much the same is true many other places. I have had a couple of my non saved friends comment on it, not in a mean way...but ask why i would have that drink, because every christian they know is this "holier then thou you cant touch that vile substance" type people, and its actually led to some good, solid conversations about my faith. Now, Im NOT suggesting drinking as a form of witnessing, thats not while I drink. The reason I drink-and I dont drink much (a pint bottle of crown will typically last me a month or more) is, because quite simply, I enjoy the flavor. And thats it. I dont drink much, if were talking a stronger drink like whiskey, i dont drink it straight-always water it down, and i stop at one. if its a weaker one like mikes hard lemonade, I MIGHT have 2, but even thats rare. More often then not, people come to Christ through relationships, not through perfectness. I find being real with people, is far more effective at winning them to Christ, then some ultra high standard of christian perfectness, because face it, no ones perfect, and theres nothing the world likes more then tearing down a hypocrit. But if they see that your a human to, just like them, only you have a reason to live, theyre far more likely to listen to what you have to say.