Pre trib rapture is fake

[other one]

1 hour ago, Reinitin said:

I believe the pan-trib rapture doctrine. The Lord has his plan and it will pan out according to His will. Whether He comes before the great trib in the middle or ends it He will lead guide and strengthen His flock. What is most important is being one of His and not be one of those who say "Lord Lord" and hear Him answer them, "I know you not".

that's my take....   be prepared to go and be prepared to stay.....      and enjoy whichever trip we are on...

If we obsess on the tribulation time period it very easy to not enjoy the time we have until it starts....   and that a certifiable waste.

[Omegaman 3.0]

3 minutes ago, OakWood said:

Well said. I'm a fence-sitter when it comes to pre-Trib and post-Trib. I've examined the evidence from both sides and still can't come to a conclusive decision, but I will point out what I may think are the flaws in somebody's arguments if I find any.

Well, at first, I had no view, I did not even know there was a rapture or a tribulation. Next I was a pre-tribber. Later, I became a post-tribber, but between those positions, I guess I spent about  8 months as a fence sitter also, while I intensively reviewed the evidence. I might switch to pre-wrathism, but that is not a big switch from post-tribism. I doubt I will go back to pre-tribism, but I won't say never. I have confidence in my position, but I do not have enough faith in my discernment and understanding, to be pig-headedly and dangerously stubborn on the issue.

[other one]

Well I personally think you will find the pre trib rapture in Revelations Chapter 13.......    the devil has us all killed who won't worship and serve him and then God starts in on those remaining in ways that has never happened and never will...   and protects the few that are left.

[Reinitin]

46 minutes ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Beginning of rant

While "pan-trib" is cute and was when the joke was already worn out over 30 years ago (when I became aware of it), I personally see it as dis-respectful. Of course we all have opinions, and that is just one of mine.

The reason I see it as I do, is that God has taken initiative to load up the Bible with hundreds of verses and passages about the timing and the sequence of end times events. In the New Testament in particular, there are scores of verses which give warnings not to be deceived, and particular signs to watch for as well as instructions to watch.

In light of all that, is seems to me, that being 'pan-trib' is way to relieve oneself of the responsibility to study and understand these things, a way of telling others, that we do not see God's word as important, at least on some topics. While I agree with people, who point out that it is not a salvational issue, I would guess that 99% of the Bible is not salvational either. If that is true, does that mean that 1% of the Bible is important, and the rest is not?

Salvation is critically important, to be sure, but that does not give us license to disregard the rest of the Bible or yawn at it's contents as though it does not matter. I would say pan-tribism is okay, to the degree that a person might not want to debate over the timing or sequences of Eschatological events, but no one, in my opinion, should give a shrug about the topic as though it is not important.

The rest of your post I agree with, but those who are apathetic, are more pathetic in my estimation. Please note that I realize that my response might be over-reactive in comparison with what you actually said, a lot of what I said is not directed at you specifically, but at 'pan-tribism' in general. The flippancy of the position, raises that hackles on my neck and send shivers down my spine, I cringe when I see Christians taking major parts of the Bible so casually.

While I have no respect for pan-tribism, I think for a person to have not come to an understanding yet, being an Eschatological agnostic, is fair, assuming that a person is still investigating the matter. I have been a Christian 37 years, and studying Eschatology for 36 of those, and I do not claim to know, nor do I think that I cannot change my mind. That is why I am still studying it.

End of rant

beginning of rant;

I know all to watch for and I know how to keep awake, ready and watchful while all these thing to come to pass. But, the 3 doctrines are speculation that disregard verses and have to add human interpretation to make up the doctrines which Gods word is straight from God and is not subject to the interpretation of prophets nor of us. 

How old the pan theory is has no relevance to me. I think it is more reasonable then waiting for things that already happened in 70 ad. The Lord allows people who puff up in their own knowledge to deceive themselves. So Gods wisdom to me is to lean not on my own understanding but in all my ways acknowledge Him and He will make my path straight.

I would rather trust in the Lord and do what He says then trust in one of three doctrines that all could be wrong. I'll keep His Word of His perseverance and trust in Him.

Rev 3 9Behold, I will cause those of the synagogue of Satan, who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie-- I will make them come and bow down at your feet, and make them know that I have loved you. 10Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. 11'I am coming quickly; hold fast what you have, so that no one will take your crown

end of rant.

[Eha]

2 hours ago, Reinitin said:

I believe the pan-trib rapture doctrine. The Lord has his plan and it will pan out according to His will. Whether He comes before the great trib in the middle or ends it He will lead guide and strengthen His flock. What is most important is being one of His and not be one of those who say "Lord Lord" and hear Him answer them, "I know you not".

agree. one thing i like to add. Father ALWAYS warn He's child to get out somewhere, He want to punish. that pre-rapture and rapture thing - really dont think i even want to know, what its about, but one thing i know for sure, WHEN He will punish whole world.... (how else you call birth pangs? was given to woman after.. first sin as punishment...) where do He take He's people?
(wont mention that Paul already did reveal that secret from revelation  )

[Ezra]

1 hour ago, Reinitin said:

Gods word is straight from God and is not subject to the interpretation of prophets nor of us. 

"Not subject to interpretation"?  That is certainly not what Scripture teaches.  To "rightly divide the Word" is to rightly interpret the Word of God, comparing Scripture with Scripture, and allowing the Holy Spirit to teach us the correct interpretation.

[SINNERSAVED]

okay, I see the love here with brothers and sisters to , state judgment on me, and have not checked it out for them selves, ?

 I have brought truth,?? here and those that refuse to hear it , turn it on a unloving way,

and say this is the right thing to do, I am confused to hear what is being said here, are we all reading the same bible, ? are we not following the same God in the bible, for is there other Gods with the same name ?

I have been telling the scripture and showing the verse to back it, up, and of course it does take understanding of the word of God to know what you are talking about, and I think I bring up some topics that many would not want to deal with , for when a person is stuck in there ways , then its hard for them to see what is presented,  and if they were taught one way on how to believe, then there is no turning the boat around,

I love to share the word with God, for we are to preach it and to be in truth , and if not then we are subjected to  a higher degree, for

 the bible states that to Him that knows more , more is required, and so the bible , tells us of stories and events of mans fall and continue rebellion to God , and He tries over and over to get them to see there folly,

 but then the son of God comes and yes, He magnified the law, He did not abolish or take away the law that He wrote on the tablets and instruction to the people , or then you are calling God a liar, to keep your traditions, and beliefs that Jesus took away the law,

 so ion magnify, it is and I explained that and I will again a little slower, so everyone can follow me on where I am going with this ?

 When the law was written is was  of knowledge and of action , , to place into action our accounts of violating the law, and not arresting the mind and thought pattern that we think of and no one knows but you and God,

and so , Jesus said, as an example that if you, physically commit adultery then you are guilty of it according to the law, but Jesus magnified it to catch the smart ,and wise in their tracks by stating , if you lust for a women in your mind, it is the same as if you have commited the offense, and so it is truth , and given to you in example,

and Jesus told us from His lips, this is scripture, and any one opposes this, is not understanding the word , not, understands the scriptures and how they work to teach us, of God, and so it will fall on deaf ears, and this is where we get, that in the last days,

which we are in today, they will not hear true doctrine but raise up for them selves false teachers to give them what the itching ears want to hear,.mockers and haters to the truth , but for what Gain,? this is a sign of the times one thing to look for,

 but to thank you Sister for supporting me , is a blessings and peace to you, it will be like this, and we can only bring Gods grace, and truth of the word to people,

in a loving fashion, and with kindness, for we know the God we serve is a great God, and knows our hearts and minds, for we are not , to hate, or be of pride, but to be humble before our God, and let His word peak for it self,

 thank you all, blessings and peace, to all,

[MorningGlory]

8 minutes ago, SINNERSAVED said:

okay, I see the love here with brothers and sisters to , state judgment on me, and have not checked it out for them selves, ?

 I have brought truth,?? here and those that refuse to hear it , turn it on a unloving way,

and say this is the right thing to do, I am confused to hear what is being said here, are we all reading the same bible, ? are we not following the same God in the bible, for is there other Gods with the same name ?

I have been telling the scripture and showing the verse to back it, up, and of course it does take understanding of the word of God to know what you are talking about, and I think I bring up some topics that many would not want to deal with , for when a person is stuck in there ways , then its hard for them to see what is presented,  and if they were taught one way on how to believe, then there is no turning the boat around,

I love to share the word with God, for we are to preach it and to be in truth , and if not then we are subjected to  a higher degree, for

 the bible states that to Him that knows more , more is required, and so the bible , tells us of stories and events of mans fall and continue rebellion to God , and He tries over and over to get them to see there folly,

 but then the son of God comes and yes, He magnified the law, He did not abolish or take away the law that He wrote on the tablets and instruction to the people , or then you are calling God a liar, to keep your traditions, and beliefs that Jesus took away the law,

 so ion magnify, it is and I explained that and I will again a little slower, so everyone can follow me on where I am going with this ?

 When the law was written is was  of knowledge and of action , , to place into action our accounts of violating the law, and not arresting the mind and thought pattern that we think of and no one knows but you and God,

and so , Jesus said, as an example that if you, physically commit adultery then you are guilty of it according to the law, but Jesus magnified it to catch the smart ,and wise in their tracks by stating , if you lust for a women in your mind, it is the same as if you have commited the offense, and so it is truth , and given to you in example,

and Jesus told us from His lips, this is scripture, and any one opposes this, is not understanding the word , not, understands the scriptures and how they work to teach us, of God, and so it will fall on deaf ears, and this is where we get, that in the last days,

which we are in today, they will not hear true doctrine but raise up for them selves false teachers to give them what the itching ears want to hear,.mockers and haters to the truth , but for what Gain,? this is a sign of the times one thing to look for,

 but to thank you Sister for supporting me , is a blessings and peace to you, it will be like this, and we can only bring Gods grace, and truth of the word to people,

in a loving fashion, and with kindness, for we know the God we serve is a great God, and knows our hearts and minds, for we are not , to hate, or be of pride, but to be humble before our God, and let His word peak for it self,

 thank you all, blessings and peace, to all,

It might help, SS, if when you say 'Jesus said' or 'the Bible states' if you would actually post the Scripture.  Not everyone has memorized the Bible, although some have, so the actual passages would be a big improvement and might make others take in what you're saying more easily.

[SINNERSAVED]

4 hours ago, Ezra said:

Sister,

All you have to do is go to the thread on "Jesus magnified the law..." by SinnerSaved to see how many people are telling him that his doctrine is false.  False doctrine is not a light matter.

There are multiple threads which could be quoted to show that SS has a lot of weird doctrines, and I am doing him a kindness by rebuking that. Jesus said "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten".  Sometimes one has to be very blunt, and sometimes you post a lot a weird things also (and have been corrected by others).

MG, thanks for confirming what we have noticed, and frankly we cannot allow false teaching to go unchallenged.  I have shown on this thread that John 14:1-4 teaches a Pre-Tribulation Rapture, and been told by SS that that is "unscriptural"!

who is doing who justice ?why do you say you are rebuking me ?? why do you say I am teaching false doctrine, you are trying to prove a false teaching on a scripture that does not clearly validates what you are proving to be right,

 lets look at this scripture you used , for example, and lets break it down, John 14;1 a pre trib rapture, from this ?

 okay what does the scripture say /  John 14:1   Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

  John 14:2   In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

  John 14:3   And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
this does not say anything about the rapture, but that Jesus goes to make  a place and comes back, it did not say prior to tribulation, or at when He would come back , so this is false teaching to make a assumption and to make it say something else,

 I am just trying to see where you got what you said, from this verse, ?

I believe i have prove this to be in error?

 the truth is in scripture, as in context and as it is written, not by twisting them?

 for you cannot get bananas out of oranges, you get bananas out of bananas?

blessings to you

'

[Ezra]

56 minutes ago, SINNERSAVED said:

I am just trying to see where you got what you said, from this verse [John 14:1-4] 

Since you have been unable to grasp the meaning of this passage, here is what it is teaching:

1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

1. (a) Let’s start with the core teaching first: I will come again, and receive you unto myself;  that where I am, there ye may be also.  (b) Does this relate to the Rapture or not? Is there a correspondence or not?  Does Christ come personally or not?  Does He receive the Church personally or not?

Let’s look at 1 Thess 4:16,17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout... Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

(c) So is it true or false that John 14 and 1 Thess 4 are speaking about the same event? 

(d) Then why did you call it “unscriptural “ and “false teaching”?  And if you are going to call this correspondence false, does that not indicate that either (1) you don’t really believe the Word or (2) you wish to promote some other false doctrine?

2. For those who think there is any relation to the Tribulation period: Let not your heart be troubled. 

(a) Is the Tribulation “trouble”? Yes

(b) Would Christ say “Let not your heart be troubled”  if you would go through the Tribulation, or would He say “You will be greatly troubled during the Tribulation, because it is the time of Jacob’s trouble?”  The answer should be obvious.

(c) Why did Christ say “Let not your heart be troubled?”  Is it not because "God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation"? (As relates to believers).

(d) Is not the Tribulation a period of wrath? Many deny it but Scripture affirms it (Luke 21: 22, 23):  For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.  But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

3. What is “the Father’s house” and what are “the mansions”?

(a) Is Heaven the Father’s house?  Absolutely.

(b) Is Christ in Heaven right now seated at the right hand of the Father?  Absolutely (Mark 16:19): So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

(c) Are the mansions in the New Jerusalem? Absolutely (Heb 12:22-24): But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

(d) Did Christ say “that where I am, there ye may be also”? Absolutely.

(e) Does this correspond to “so shall we ever be with the Lord”? Absolutely.

So why do you continue to persist in your attacks, and your incorrect understanding of the Rapture?  You claim you want to learn and understand, but so far you have not proven it.