Pre trib rapture is fake

[Ezra]

Words of SinnerSaved in red, my responses in black:

where does anything I  have shown you, that you have not accepted but refused, where is the rapture of the saints that you separated from the second coming ?  Did you read John 14:1-4? Did you understand it? Did you see the connection with 1 Thess 4? If so why did you ask this question?  No Scripture connected with the Rapture even mentions “the Tribulation” or “the Great Tribulation”.

you are confusion and are not following the scriptures  Please go back and read carefully what was written, and don’t make such wild accusations.

for if there was a place that says you will be raptured and no tribulation, then where is it, Once again, read John 14:1-4. If Jesus was telling His apostles that they would go through the Tribulation, why would He start out with “Let not your heart be troubled”? When you go through tribulation, is your heart troubled or not?

for you have not proven anything  Of course, because you did not bother to read anything either. I wouldn’t be surprised if you simply skipped that post and decided to make wild accusations instead. 

how would any one just learning about scripture find what you are saying to be true, it is not there,  As Jesus said, Let those who have ears to hear, hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. You have not paid any attention to what was said, so how would you know if it was false.  Proof?  You have not quoted anything I said, and brought Scripture to refute it.

it talks about not in secret  The word “secret” never came up in the discussion, so you just pulled this out of thin air.

did you even read what I have in scripture, you can not refute the scripture and say its not true,and make up your own teaching, this is not even how it works ?Since I gave you a very clear explanation of what that passage teaches, this is simply a rant without substance. I do not make up my own teachings, but you certainly come up with some unorthodox beliefs. So tell us, Do you believe that Jesus is God? Yes or No is sufficient.

if you can convince me that  a rapture is coming before the tribulation, and exclude the verse that God gives the beast 42 month to over come the saints, then I would believe you, but you are out of context, and I am showing you what God said, and what is to happen, for ?  If I brought Revelation 13 into a discussion about the Rapture THAT WOULD BE TOTALLY OUT OF CONTEXT.  But this is exactly what you are asking for.

if there is a Rapture before tribulation, then how does the beast have permission from God to overcome the saints?  Those are the Tribulation saints – people who do get saved during the Tribulation, since the two witnesses preach during that time, and an angel proclaims the everlasting Gospel.  The Church is not the Tribulation saints, because if that were the case, THE ENTIRE CHURCH WOULD BE BEHEADED (which is false).

[Esther4:14]

19 minutes ago, Ezra said:

Words of SinnerSaved in red, my responses in black:

where does anything I  have shown you, that you have not accepted but refused, where is the rapture of the saints that you separated from the second coming ?  Did you read John 14:1-4? Did you understand it? Did you see the connection with 1 Thess 4? If so why did you ask this question?  No Scripture connected with the Rapture even mentions “the Tribulation” or “the Great Tribulation”.

you are confusion and are not following the scriptures  Please go back and read carefully what was written, and don’t make such wild accusations.

for if there was a place that says you will be raptured and no tribulation, then where is it, Once again, read John 14:1-4. If Jesus was telling His apostles that they would go through the Tribulation, why would He start out with “Let not your heart be troubled”? When you go through tribulation, is your heart troubled or not?

for you have not proven anything  Of course, because you did not bother to read anything either. I wouldn’t be surprised if you simply skipped that post and decided to make wild accusations instead. 

how would any one just learning about scripture find what you are saying to be true, it is not there,  As Jesus said, Let those who have ears to hear, hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. You have not paid any attention to what was said, so how would you know if it was false.  Proof?  You have not quoted anything I said, and brought Scripture to refute it.

it talks about not in secret  The word “secret” never came up in the discussion, so you just pulled this out of thin air.

did you even read what I have in scripture, you can not refute the scripture and say its not true,and make up your own teaching, this is not even how it works ?Since I gave you a very clear explanation of what that passage teaches, this is simply a rant without substance. I do not make up my own teachings, but you certainly come up with some unorthodox beliefs. So tell us, Do you believe that Jesus is God? Yes or No is sufficient.

if you can convince me that  a rapture is coming before the tribulation, and exclude the verse that God gives the beast 42 month to over come the saints, then I would believe you, but you are out of context, and I am showing you what God said, and what is to happen, for ?  If I brought Revelation 13 into a discussion about the Rapture THAT WOULD BE TOTALLY OUT OF CONTEXT.  But this is exactly what you are asking for.

if there is a Rapture before tribulation, then how does the beast have permission from God to overcome the saints?  Those are the Tribulation saints – people who do get saved during the Tribulation, since the two witnesses preach during that time, and an angel proclaims the everlasting Gospel.  The Church is not the Tribulation saints, because if that were the case, THE ENTIRE CHURCH WOULD BE BEHEADED (which is false).

This is seriously how you respond to someone.  I would just like to point out that you have literally isolated "for you have not proven anything."  

This inspired response

or this, "it talks about not in secret," from the full sentence of (drum roll please)

"how would any one just learning about scripture find what you are saying to be true, it is not there, it talks about it not in secret,"  

This needed to be separated and responded to individually.   

Sometimes I just have to laugh at how serious you are always are.  My goodness.  

I am guessing that SS is not citing his paraphrase of 1 Thessalonians 4:16 which says there will be no secret coming of the Lord. 

"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first,"

He should cite this, but still, this is from the chapter that you are citing as your entire argument that he is disregarding from 1 Thessalonians 4 and John 14:1-4.  

Honestly Ezra, the part about John 14:1-4 is so easily refuted, that I am surprised that someone with such a high standard for accuracy of scripture and the authority of scripture would even use it in an argument supporting pretribulation theory.  

Nevertheless, you have.  

Lets see what John 14:1 in particular says again so that we are all clear.  Ezra is really saying that, 

" Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me." means that we will be raptured-thus our hearts don't need to be troubled...???....???

Just stop it Ezra, your too much. 

Now, I am pretty sure that He just told them that the same rule of them they have been told about being strong and courageous they can apply to Him as well...and that this has nothing to do with 2000 years of church persecution that is ended suddenly before a rapture before most of what is written in the book of Revelation happens.  I think He would have been a little more specific if that were the case...

 

[OakWood]

10 hours ago, RobertS said:

Here's one problem some of you are not recognizing:

If we need to be here for the Tribulation, then that says the blood of Jesus Christ was NOT enough to cleanse us and purify us, and that we need to "suffer" in the Tribulation.

Either Christ's blood paid for our sins or it didn't:

And if Christ's blood wasn't enough to fully cleanse us, then what is? And if it is, then why are we on earth? Did God leave Noah with the sinners, or did he leave Enoch on Earth?

If we were to be left on earth during the Tribulation, that would say that Jesus' blood wasn't enough to cleanse us, and that we needed to "suffer" during the tribulation. And that makes no sense.

And tell me what groom lets his bride-to-be walk into a situation where he knows she will be pummeled and beaten to a bloody pulp? Read Rev 13 carefully: it says the saints would be overcome by the Beast.

 

Sorry, but your desire to "win crowns" during the Trib is showing.

 

What you're not recognizing is the Tribulation is not a judgement of God, it is a product of evil.

The blood of Christ was enough to cleanse and purify us so that we do not receive the judgement of God, but it says nothing about protecting us from suffering here on Earth.

Christians worldwide are suffering as we speak, they are being murdered by ISIS, they are rotting in Iranian and Pakistani jails, they are dying and suffering everywhere. Are you suggesting that they're not really Christians? Because according to your logic they are suffering because Jesus' blood was not enough to cleanse them.

God did not leave Noah to suffer with the sinners because God was protecting Noah from God's own judgement.

God did not leave Enoch on Earth or Lot in Sodom because they were being protected from God's own judgement.

The Flood was a judgement of God and so was the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. God does not punish the righteous, but evil does.

All the sufferings of the Tribulation will be caused by the antiChrist. The Tribulation is NOT a judgement of God. God merely allows it happen.

[hmbld]

9 hours ago, Ezra said:

It is very simple. 

Church Age----> Trials, Tribulations, Afflictions for the SAVED

The Tribulation----> Judgements for the UNBELEIVING & UNSAVED

The Great Tribulation ----> Wrath for the UNBELIEVING & UNGODLY

Thank you, although this does not show any difference in why Christ's blood is not enough to save us from church age, but is enough to save us from The Great Tribulation, which is why all must be raptured prior to this Great Tribulation.  

[Last Daze]

11 hours ago, Reinitin said:

2 peter 1: 20 First of all, you should know this: No prophecy of Scripture comes from one’s own interpretation, 21 because no prophecy ever came by the will of man; instead, men spoke from God as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. 

Amen!  And prophecy will not be fulfilled according to the wishes of man either, but according to the will of God.

If someone truly wants to know the timing of the rapture, they will start with the verses that talk about it because the verses that talk about it plainly state when it will be.  Start with those verses and see where it leads.

If someone chooses to ignore the plainly stated timing and then proceeds to cherry-pick passages to contort into something unintended, well, its obvious they are primarily being influenced by their own interpretation.  If you ignore what's plainly stated in lieu of something that contradicts it, its simply an error.

[Last Daze]

1 hour ago, OakWood said:

What you're not recognizing is the Tribulation is not a judgement of God, it is a product of evil.

The blood of Christ was enough to cleanse and purify us so that we do not receive the judgement of God, but it says nothing about protecting us from suffering here on Earth.

A succinct truth and a blind spot for many who prefer not to acknowledge it.  It knocks down the main pillar of the pretrib fallacy.  It's vital to understand the difference between tribulation, judgment, and wrath to make sense of what's going on in the end times.

To get a better understanding, ask yourself these questions:

• Tribulation - who is being troubled and why?  Where is the tribulation coming from?  Man, Satan, God?
• Judgment - what judgment has been made?  Who made the judgment and who is being judged?  What are the penalties, if any?
• Wrath - whose anger is it?  God's, Satan's, man's?  Who are they angry at?  Why?

To view these terms as synonymous and call them all the wrath of God in order to substantiate a pet doctrine is irresponsible.

[SINNERSAVED]

5 hours ago, Esther4:14 said:

This is seriously how you respond to someone.  I would just like to point out that you have literally isolated "for you have not proven anything."  

This inspired response

or this, "it talks about not in secret," from the full sentence of (drum roll please)

"how would any one just learning about scripture find what you are saying to be true, it is not there, it talks about it not in secret,"  

This needed to be separated and responded to individually.   

Sometimes I just have to laugh at how serious you are always are.  My goodness.  

I am guessing that SS is not citing his paraphrase of 1 Thessalonians 4:16 which says there will be no secret coming of the Lord. 

"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first,"

He should cite this, but still, this is from the chapter that you are citing as your entire argument that he is disregarding from 1 Thessalonians 4 and John 14:1-4.  

Honestly Ezra, the part about John 14:1-4 is so easily refuted, that I am surprised that someone with such a high standard for accuracy of scripture and the authority of scripture would even use it in an argument supporting pretribulation theory.  

Nevertheless, you have.  

Lets see what John 14:1 in particular says again so that we are all clear.  Ezra is really saying that, 

" Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me." means that we will be raptured-thus our hearts don't need to be troubled...???....???

Just stop it Ezra, your too much. 

Now, I am pretty sure that He just told them that the same rule of them they have been told about being strong and courageous they can apply to Him as well...and that this has nothing to do with 2000 years of church persecution that is ended suddenly before a rapture before most of what is written in the book of Revelation happens.  I think He would have been a little more specific if that were the case...

 

my thoughts exactly thank you, I am just as confused to hear that response also, which is even more out of context ?

Esther4;14 that is a great statement, thank you for clearing this up, blessings to you

[SINNERSAVED]

3 hours ago, OakWood said:

What you're not recognizing is the Tribulation is not a judgement of God, it is a product of evil.

The blood of Christ was enough to cleanse and purify us so that we do not receive the judgement of God, but it says nothing about protecting us from suffering here on Earth.

Christians worldwide are suffering as we speak, they are being murdered by ISIS, they are rotting in Iranian and Pakistani jails, they are dying and suffering everywhere. Are you suggesting that they're not really Christians? Because according to your logic they are suffering because Jesus' blood was not enough to cleanse them.

God did not leave Noah to suffer with the sinners because God was protecting Noah from God's own judgement.

God did not leave Enoch on Earth or Lot in Sodom because they were being protected from God's own judgement.

The Flood was a judgement of God and so was the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. God does not punish the righteous, but evil does.

All the sufferings of the Tribulation will be caused by the antiChrist. The Tribulation is NOT a judgement of God. God merely allows it happen.

Well stated with truth ,informative true response, glory be to God, and our savior that shed His blood for me, and for you ,blessings to you

[MorningGlory]

10 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

You certainly did mention me! I fall under that broad category of "anyone"! So, to repeat the question, since I am one of the 'anyones', are you saying that:

I, who fails to see the truth of scripture (since I do not see a pre-trib rapture as truth) has and inferior understanding of sripture, to those, who like you, do see a pre-trib rapture? Does that make the question any clearer?

Sure.  I guess you are one of 'everyone'.  I didn't say those who think differently have an inferior understanding.  Y'all have a different one  I consider my own to be correct and let everyone else believe as they will.  I notice many here saying that PreTribbers have a flawed understanding of Scripture.  Isn't that calling OUR understanding inferior?

[Reinitin]

20 hours ago, Eha said:

agree. one thing i like to add. Father ALWAYS warn He's child to get out somewhere, He want to punish. that pre-rapture and rapture thing - really dont think i even want to know, what its about, but one thing i know for sure, WHEN He will punish whole world.... (how else you call birth pangs? was given to woman after.. first sin as punishment...) where do He take He's people?
(wont mention that Paul already did reveal that secret from revelation  )

He does faithfully warn us and give direction of escape. Which is in revelation. He also is faithful to remind us.