Pre-Tribulation Proofs

[enoob57]

2 hours ago, inchrist said:

Yet assuming Mary had full scope Christ could turn water into wine?

You're assuming what is not in scripture

There was no assuming in my post! What I stated was Scripture written nothing more!

[JoeCanada]

12 hours ago, OldCoot said:

  And why is the church not even mentioned from chapter 4 onward in Revelation?   

Hi OldCoot.....

I'll respond to the points that you make individually.

You say......"And why is the church not even mentioned from chapter 4 onward in Revelation?"

I hear this a lot from those in the pre-trib camp. It seems to be one of their favorite lines.

 The term “bond-servant” is regularly found throughout the Book. It is used of members of the Church in Thyatira (Rev. 2:20) and in terms of the martyrs who die at the hand of the Harlot (Rev. 19:2). Rev. 1:1 tells us Revelation was given to these bond-servants as well. In addition to these general uses of “bond-servant,” Revelation also makes reference to John and Moses being bond-servants (Rev. 1:1, Rev. 15:3). This implies that the bond-servants are perhaps the most faithful of Jesus’s servants. 

 

Rev. 1:1“The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place”Rev. 2:20“But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray so that they commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols.”Rev. 7:3“Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the bond-servants of our God on their foreheads.”Rev. 11:18“And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name.”Rev. 19:2“His judgments are true and righteous; for He has judged the great harlot who was corrupting the earth with her immorality, and He has avenged the blood of His bond-servants on her.”Rev. 19:5“And a voice came from the throne, saying, ‘Give praise to our God, all you His bond-servants, you who fear Him, the small and the great.’”Rev. 22:3“There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bond-servants will serve Him.”

A second title for believers is seen in the Book of Revelation; it refers to the word “saints” 12 times between Rev. 1 and Rev. 19 (the physical Second Coming). The references to “saints” do not discriminate on the location of the saints (heaven or earth) based on the position of the reference in Revelation either.

Let’s look at two uses of the word “saints.” This first use of “saints” is always thought to include the Church raptured prior to the 70th Week by Pre-Tribulation Rapture exponents:

Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready.” It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. (Rev. 19:7-8)

The second example is never thought to include the Church by these same exponents:

If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, . . . the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus. (Rev. 14:9, 11-12)

The single most likely spot to see mention of the “Church”, “saints”, or “bond-servants” if there will be a Pre-Trib Rapture is in Rev. 4-5 as Jesus prepares to open the Seven Sealed Scroll. Yet these words are conspicuously absent there.

In 1 Thes 4:17.......¹⁷ Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

So why isn't the church there in Rev 4-5?....if we are to be ALWAYS with the Lord?

[inchrist]

12 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

There was no assuming in my post! What I stated was Scripture written nothing more!

Show that Mary expected Christ to turn water into wine? 

You are leading an assumption

Edited May 2, 2018 by inchrist

[enoob57]

3 minutes ago, inchrist said:

Show that Mary expected Christ to turn water into wine? 

You are leading an assumption

I did not say that you did! Till you learn to communicate in written format your going to continue to struggle here or anywhere for that matter!

[inchrist]

2 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

I did not say that you did! Till you learn to communicate in written format your going to continue to struggle here or anywhere for that matter!

"It certainly suggests that Mary knew Jesus could fix the problem... "

Edited May 2, 2018 by inchrist

[enoob57]

It certainly suggests that Mary knew Jesus could fix the problem >=<Show that Mary expected Christ to turn water into wine? 
You seeing what I wrote and what you understood is quite telling... 
by Mary coming to Jesus when they had run out of wine suggests Mary expected Jesus was able to fix problem is no where near your summation of what I wrote!  It does show your own thought process is not a grammatical process but what you decide written material means outside of grammar! 

[Still Alive]

On ‎9‎/‎6‎/‎2017 at 2:47 AM, Guest said:

Wow!  The sheer volume of information is enough to prevent most people from responding.  I used to believe pretribulation rapture and even taught it.  I started seeing "proofs" that people use to convince others, very much like yours, and found way too many contradictions in the whole doctrine.

Some of your "proofs" have no Biblical reference- it's because there is nothing In the Bible to support it.  Those statements are not proof, they are merely assumed conclusions of misinterpreted verses based on a preconceived belief.

Most of the verses you've quoted are taken out of context...many to the point that you could actually assign any meaning to them.  Of those I have studied the context and found that many of them are not even about the rapture.  Some of them, if you honestly look at the context say exactly opposite of the out-of-context snippets.

Regarding  a few of those, I have found significant errors in translation.  (Intentional or not). Some words have literally been redefined by "scholars" to fit their beliefs and to reconcile the contradictions they created with poor interpretation.

A couple of your early statements claimed "proof" because the the Old Testament and Revelation don't mention the resurrection...  by that logic the rapture is not mentioned during the first resurrection in Rev20... does that mean it won't happen?

you have a lot of word manipulation in you list... too many to mention...

but I will point out that in #13 on your list, you translate based on your belief by not translating every word....

you wrote, "I will keep thee out of the hour of temptation...".  Out is one way to translate ek, but John used this word elsewhere in Revelation and it translates "because of."  To be consistent with John's use of that word, it makes more sense to maintain that...  

i know what you're thinking... "that wouldn't make sense to say "I will keep you because of...". That is because no pretrib rapture teacher will ever honestly translate the Greek word that precedes it- "keep"

the root word for that in Greek means to be a spectator... the form of that word that John used literally means "to watch over" or "to guard."

now if you really love the Word of God and not just doctrine, you will see that this verse actually promises, "I will guard you because of the hour of temptation...". 

I am surprised that you didn't include Jesus' comparison to the days of Noah... you know, the infamous (and out-of-context) "left behind"verse.  I find it sad that no one dare read how Jesus indentified who was "taken."  Read carefully, the taken were taken by the flood- God's wrath, not by any type of rapture.  In Genesis 6, it specifies who was "left."  It says that only Noah and his family were "left."  

That passage coincides with Rev 3: 10 because both offer the promise of protection from the wrath of God.  Yes, it does actually show that we will witness the wrath of God, just like Noah, but remain safe from falling under that wrath.

i understand you've been taught pretrib by well-meaning teachers, but honestly, most of the pretrib doctrine is based on speculation, not "proof."

none of the "proof verses" that I've spent years researching and analyzing give any credence to the doctrine.  

Shalom 

Absolutely nailed it! FWIW, I started out believing in Pre-trib but changed my position when I started studying it.

[OldCoot]

14 hours ago, inchrist said:

Battle of jericho

Noah.  Sealed by God inside the ark 6 days before the destruction came on the 7th.

Lot.  He and his family had to be removed before the angels could bring destruction on Sodom and Gomorrah.

King Joash as a child.  When Athaliah was killing the royal line and is a pretty good picture of the future false messiah, as evil as that wretched woman was.   Joash was hidden in the upper part of the temple for 6 years while all this was going on.  Then he was brought forth in the 7th year.   Athaliah was slain, and Joash was crowned as king.  

Prophecy is pattern as well as prediction.

 

[n2thelight]

11 hours ago, Adstar said:

Because after the 1000 years satan will be released to once again go out into the world and decieve the nations again..   The 1000 years is a gift to the Saints and they shall rule the nations with Jesus..  We read in Revealtion 19 that Jesus shall rule the nations during the 1000 years after His return.. note what He will be ruling them with..

Revelation 19:KJV

15 "And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God."

Now Jesus will not be whipping His Saints into line with an Rod of Iron during the Mellenium.. We shall be reasurected / raptured and we shall be transformed into perfected sinless beings.. There is no need for any Rod of Iron to rule his beloved Saints.. But the people of the nations?? We read in Zacariah 14 of the Day of the LORD.. When Jesus will return to earth.. We see how He will defeat the army of the beast with a terrible plague and madness.. But after this we see how Jesus will rule over the peoples of the nations who came against Jerusalem that remain..

Zechariah 14: KJV

12 "¶ And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth. {13} And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour. {14} And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance. {15} And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.  ( So a terrible plague and they will be struck with madness that will cause them to turn their wepons upon each other )

So reading on we see what will happen after the defeat of the Army of the beast::

{16} ¶ And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. {17} And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. {18} And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. {19} This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles."

 

So this above scripture is revealing that the King who will be reigning in Jerusalem will be the Lord of Hosts and we know who the LORD of Hosts is, It is not a human king but Jesus our Redeemer is the LORD of hosts 

Isaiah 47: KJV

{4} As for our redeemer, the LORD of hosts is his name, the Holy One of Israel."

 

I see your thinking from a point of there will be people being born during this time,however that's not true.

Christ ruling with a rod of iron is for those who didn't overcome,they are known as the dead,because they still can die the 2nd death,if deceived by satan again.

There's no rapture,we do however gather to Christ,and ALL,not just the saved shall be changed,the difference is,those who didn't overcome will still have a mortal soul

 

At the return of Christ,the age of the flesh will be over....

 

Now concerning those who you think will be born during this time,according to your thinking,they will get to see Christ in all His glory,how is that fair to those who were not born during this time?

It's not,yet we know we have a fair God

Edited May 3, 2018 by n2thelight

[n2thelight]

11 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

On 5/1/2018 at 11:48 PM, OldCoot said:

  And why is the church not even mentioned from chapter 4 onward in Revelation?   

Revelation 4:1 "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter."

"After this", is after the vision of the seven churches have been instructed; in which two of those churches were on the right track, and of the other five churches Jesus was displeased with. Two churches had the doctrines of Christ in them, and they knew who the "Kenites" are, and where they came. They knew the Kenites were of the synagogue of Satan and claimed to be Jews, when in fact they were lying and not Jews at all.

Jesus said, if you understand what the churches of Smyrna and Philadelphia understood, and followed it, it is worth a crown of life to you.

This chapter starts out, "After this [after the messages to the churches] I looked, behold a door was opened in heaven:" This door is not on earth where the seven churches are, but in heaven. John is being carried from the Isle of Patmos to a specific time, or "earth dispensation" in the heavenlies. The key to understanding when this time period was, go to Revelation 1:10. "I was in the spirit on the Lord's day:" This is not in reference to a Saturday or Sunday. This is a record given by Jesus to John of events that will happen just before, or following that day. "That day" is the day of the sounding of the seventh trumpet when Jesus Christ returns.

John has already addressed the churches on the earth; then he looked up, and this door to heaven has opened. Now we can see through John's spiritual eyes and pen, what events are taking place there on the "day of the Lord", only the location of this event is in heaven.

"The first voice which I heard..." Who is this "I" in verse one? Of course it's John, the one writing this. Have you ever heard John referred to as "the Church"? Absolutely not. There is no church in heaven; not at this point. However, there will be, for heaven is where ever God is, and at the appointed time He is coming here to earth. Then there will be one church, one gathering place where the called-out ones shall meet.

"...I heard as it were of a trumpet"; [This is the last trumpet] "...talking with me,". The voice here is not speaking to the church, but it is directed to John. "Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be here after." That refers to the "day" that is after our subject, "The Lords Day". "I will shew thee [John, singular]", transporting John and John only, in the spirit to this certain place in heaven.

There is no church in this verse going anyplace. There is only John being taken to heaven in the spirit, and hearing a voice like a trumpet calling him up. John was taken from 90 A.D. to a time beyond this year, 1994; for we are living in the final generation. The whole purpose for John writing this entire book of Revelation is to warn the people of this generation of the great deception the Antichrist, and his system would bring upon the earth before Jesus Christ's return. We are living in the generation of the "parable of the fig tree" and that is why Jesus told us to learn it, so that we would not be deceived.

This fourth chapter then tells us what is going to happen after this generation on the "Day of the Lord" in heaven.

Revelation 4:2 "And immediately I was in the spirit; and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne."

Again, this is John that is in the spirit and observing our Heavenly Father sitting upon His throne.

 

https://www.theseason.org/revelation/revelation4.htm