Pre trib rapture is fake

[hmbld]

On March 16, 2016 at 0:46 PM, SINNERSAVED said:

no it does not , take it out of context and it will ?

  Matthew 24:29   Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

  Matthew 24:30   And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

  Matthew 24:31   And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
 

I have not understood how this sequence shown can support a pre-trib rapture.  Can anyone explain it to me?  Is the argument that the four winds are dimensions in heaven and the Son of man coming in the middle verse is a second coming of Christ?  

[Zemke]

34 minutes ago, hmbld said:

I have not understood how this sequence shown can support a pre-trib rapture.  Can anyone explain it to me?  Is the argument that the four winds are dimensions in heaven and the Son of man coming in the middle verse is a second coming of Christ?  

I'm pretty sure pre trib would say this is the second coming.

1. the tribes of the earth see this, the snatching away like a thief doesn't fit that perspective.

2. In the clouds with power and great glory, same thing, doesn't fit a stealth removal, like a thief.

3. The reference to the elect is speaking to the Jewish believers saved during the tribulation.

4 "After the tribulation of those days", completely nullifies it being the rapture since the rapture is pre trib. not really an argument but.

All of which can be or is attempted to be disputed and why we have a continual argument over timing.  

I think the display of great power and glory is what is used to prove the rapture to be prior because He comes like a thief and it would be argued this don't look like no thief. 

What seems to get lost in the argument is the rapture is a side event of the resurrection concerning those who are alive and remain and I really don't believe much faith, percentage wise to the population, see Lot and Rahab, will remain. Times are going to get rough. But somehow we have allowed the rapture to steal the show, so to speak, and yet our hope is in the resurrection.   

I've served with brothers and sisters from differing views on just a few missions and it was never an issue while on mission and working. Like Jesus said, "Work while it is the day, night comes when no man can work."  My view on the rapture/resurrection is still in the works and I think some are close to understanding these things but most of us are stuck in this timing thing.

[missmuffet]

The important differences between the rapture and second coming are as follows:

1) At the rapture, believers meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At the second coming, believers return with the Lord to the earth (Revelation 19:14).

2) The second coming occurs after the great and terrible tribulation (Revelation chapters 6–19). The rapture occurs before the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).

3) The rapture is the removal of believers from the earth as an act of deliverance (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, 5:9). The second coming includes the removal of unbelievers as an act of judgment (Matthew 24:40-41).

4) The rapture will be secret and instant (1 Corinthians 15:50-54). The second coming will be visible to all (Revelation 1:7; Matthew 24:29-30).

5) The second coming of Christ will not occur until after certain other end-times events take place (2 Thessalonians 2:4; Matthew 24:15-30; Revelation chapters 6–18). The rapture is imminent; it could take place at any moment (Titus 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:50-54).

Why is it important to keep the rapture and the second coming distinct?

1) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, believers will have to go through the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).

2) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, the return of Christ is not imminent—there are many things which must occur before He can return (Matthew 24:4-30).

3) In describing the tribulation period, Revelation chapters 6–19 nowhere mentions the church. During the tribulation—also called “the time of trouble for Jacob” (Jeremiah 30:7)—God will again turn His primary attention to Israel (Romans 11:17-31).

The rapture and second coming are similar but separate events. Both involve Jesus returning. Both are end-times events. However, it is crucially important to recognize the differences. In summary, the rapture is the return of Christ in the clouds to remove all believers from the earth before the time of God’s wrath. The second coming is the return of Christ to the earth to bring the tribulation to an end and to defeat the Antichrist and his evil world empire.

http://www.gotquestions.org/difference-Rapture-Second-Coming.html

[ENOCH2010]

Why don't the pre-trib crowd state their true beliefs about this which are.... the rapture is the second coming,so the second coming written about in the Bible is the third coming.

 

[SINNERSAVED]

Revelation 3:10  Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

first of all you use this verse to say that ,it is saying we are not subject to tribulation, and that we are out of this , and the wrath of God, ?

 but I will except the first scripture you posted because we are all in agreement that no believer, is subjected to wrath , so this is not in question at all, this is truth , but this verse that you are using, to validate the rep rapture, and no believer goes through the tribulation, , and that is not correct for the bible tells us from all the teachings from Yashua Himself tells us we go through the tribulation,

so  would this verse above you are using, fit more in the correct line of, the wrath of God, the Hour of trial to the whole world, I believe He God Yahweh is saying I keep you from the worlds time of testing, the wrath,!! of God, not the tribulation, then it would make a lot more sense ?

 did you know when a ear of wheat hits the ground and dies, then ,and only then it starts growing a new a new creation the seed of the wheat starts to grow, ?

[SINNERSAVED]

3 hours ago, hmbld said:

I have not understood how this sequence shown can support a pre-trib rapture.  Can anyone explain it to me?  Is the argument that the four winds are dimensions in heaven and the Son of man coming in the middle verse is a second coming of Christ?  

Hello Hmbid, this verse is to prove that it is not talking about the pre rapture, , but that it is talking a later time, and I am discounting by these scriptures that are being used to be out of sequence and does not validate the pre tribe rapture at  all, ?

 the scripture is taken out of its context to mean something  that it is not for the sake of pre trib, that's why I posted these,

I wanted to clear that up, so that there is no confusion, thanks and peace

[SINNERSAVED]

3 hours ago, Ezra said:

You know SinnerSaved, you oppose the truth at every turn, and accuse others of being unscriptural.  Well, people who know better understand that you are on this forum to sow seeds of confusion and false doctrine.

You have swarmed Worthy Forums with your threads (probably the maximum number of threads by anyone) but contributed little or nothing to a proper understanding of Bible truth.

Hello Ezra, I have not given any false doctrine ,or teachings as you have said, ?I have given all in accordance with the bible and the word of God, and I have even gone a step further, to explain my self, so there is no confusion, , I think you have made a false judgment about me,

 I have brought love and compassion, and understanding , in my humility of scripture and Yahwehs love, so I don't know how you can say that, about me,

the truth is the word of God, its not my words, I use the bibles holy scriptures to show the facts and points of any topic,

'I believe, compassion and understanding goes a long way , and I am very patient, in fact, I have asked a question, on your posts, ,and I am still waiting for a answer, so if there is something I need to work on, or you think is not correct, feel free to let me know, ?

 thank you , for your time

[enoob57]

The assurance of God in us is the witness of His Spirit to us... this is manifested in many ways but the clearest is the witness
of others in like faith formed from The Word of God and not of ourselves in proclamations!  Love, Steven

[Last Daze]

13 hours ago, Ezra said:

Really.  Now that you have seen Scripture which refutes your doctrine, its a "misapplication" of Scripture?  That verse belongs in the Olivet Discourse and pertains to the the Tribulation and the great Tribulation. That is no misapplication. 

Your infatuation with the pre-trib fallacy blinds you to her flaws to the point you reject any attempts at having them pointed out.  You want her to be true so badly that you're willing to give her precedence over sound reasoning but ultimately, she will disappoint.  Your zeal in defending her is admirable but don't let your desire for something to be true cloud your judgment.

Again, may God give us discernment and zeal that we might be ready and endure to the end.

[OakWood]

On 17/03/2016 at 4:36 AM, Ezra said:

1. Was Enoch raptured before the judgment of the Flood?

2. Were Noah and his family left in the Flood to sink or swim?

3. Were Lot and his family left in Sodom to experience the wrath of God? 

4. Is the Church appointed to wrath, or to salvation?

Was Job raptured so that he would escape the torments of Satan?

Were Christians raptured so that they would escape being thrown to the lions during the time of Nero?

Are thousands of Christians in the Middle East being raptured so as to escape the persecutions, beheadings and torture of ISIS?

By the way, pre-Trib is not the same as pre-wrath.

The Tribulation is not the wrath of God, it is the wrath of evil, the wrath of the Beast. All the examples that you gave above were judgements made by the Almighty. The suffering of the Great Tribulation will be caused by the evil that the antiChrist performs when he persecutes the righteous.

Christians will escape the wrath of God, that does not necessarily mean that they will escape the anguish of the Tribulation!