Question for prewrathers and/or posttribbers

[Marilyn C]

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

This is simply not true - not during the 7 years. We will be doing a lot of rejoicing, and visiting and catching up with loved ones. We won't be reigning or ruling until the start of the Millennial Reign - some little time after Christ and the church return from the marriage and supper to Armageddon.

Hi iamlamad,

There are no fallen angels in the millennium,

`Do you not know that saints will judge the world (system)?....Do you not know that saints will judge (fallen) angels?` (1 Cor. 6: 2 & 3)

[AdHoc]

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

So where "am" Jesus at the moment of the rapture? He is in the air and in the clouds. Will He stay there in that place forever? Not a chance. Revelation shows us He will be in heaven and will descend down to earth after the marriage and supper to Armageddon. Since we will be where He "am," then we must be in heaven with Him and return to earth with Him.

The "I am" is associated in time with His coming to get His Bride. He "am" in the clouds. He has always been "in the Father" and the Father has always been in Him. They are three in one. Dare I write it? They are Spirit, Soul and Body.

"Rapture"? Which verse? I posted three scriptures out of John 14 to show where the Lord was as He spoke these verses. He was not in rapture. He was firmly on the earth. The plain wording of John 14 says that at the time of speaking, our Lord Jesus was IN the Father and the Father IN Him. He was the ABODE of His Father. Then, He promises that "in that day" - FUTURE, His disciples will be the abode of Jesus - HIM IN THEM.

The grammar is clear. Our Lord Jesus WAS (as He spoke) IN the Father and the Father IN HIM - making Him (Jesus) the ABODE of the Father.

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Please don't misunderstand. There is nothing in this verse (except the idea conveyed) that would tie this to Paul's classic rapture verse of 1 Thes. 4. Neither is there a hint in 1 Thes. 4 to tie that verse to this one (except the idea conveyed). No one (that I have met) believes that Jesus and the church will stay in the air and in the clouds. Although John 14 does not say in so many words that after He leaves for heaven to build homes for us, and after He comes for us, He will then escort us to those homes - but I believe that idea is strongly hinted.

Therefore I believe these verses fit together very well.

Now we on the right way. God transmitted His Words. These Words come from the greatest mind of the universe. They are perfectly calculated to transmit an idea. That idea is that the ABODES WHERE ALREADY THERE. There was no building needed. What was needed was a "PREPARATION". What was the "preparation" needed for the disciples to be IN Christ, Christ in them, the Father in them and later the Comforter to be IN them? That is, what hindered the disciples from being ABODES? Why .... the same thing that hindered Adam from eating from the Tree of Life - a fiery sword going every which way.

Our Lord said that He was going to prepare the way to the Father. What hindered a disciple of Jesus from going to the Father? A Curtain - a Veil. If a man steps through the Curtain of the Tabernacle he is immediately struck dead. But Jesus will make that journey and instead of us being struck, He would be struck dead (Heb.10:19-20). The way through the Veil was the tearing of Jesus' flesh.

Our Lord told His disciples that HE was PRESENTLY an ABODE of the Father, and AFTER He had prepared the WAY He would COME to His disciples and receive them to be where HE WAS ALREADY - an ABODE of the Father. Rapture does not make a man an abode of the Father. It is an escape from the earth where unimaginable things are happening to men. But the Book of John is about getting God into man that man might become the House of God. So later the Holy Spirit could say;

16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. (1 Co 3:16–17)

19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's. (1 Co 6:19–20)

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit. (Eph 2:21–22)

So also 1st Tim.3:15, 1st Pet 2:5 etc.

Edited April 24, 2022 by AdHoc

[Last Daze]

9 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi iamlamad,

There are no fallen angels in the millennium,

`Do you not know that saints will judge the world (system)?....Do you not know that saints will judge (fallen) angels?` (1 Cor. 6: 2 & 3)

Aren't fallen angels already judged by God, thus their "fallen" attribute?  What's left to judge?  I've never understood the idea of re-judging an entity already judged by God.  

Maybe we'll judge the service of righteous angels?

[luigi]

On 4/19/2022 at 8:02 PM, iamlamad said:

Yes, Jesus went to build homes for us, and one day will come and get us. It should be understood by the context that after He gets us, He will take us to the homes He has built. That is the way I read it.

I believe where the Lord is preparing our place is in the present. We all go through various trials and tests. This is how I see the Lord preparing us.

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 

[Revelation Man]

On 4/15/2022 at 4:56 PM, iamlamad said:

Since neither group believes that John 14 will take place at the rapture event, when will it take place? 

I am not looking for an argument, just input. Please include a reason for your belief.

I don't think most people get that Jesus was teaching his disciples in well known Jewish Traditions via parables where it would stick with them. Paul did the same think at Corinth, they were known as a sporting city, thus Paul's references to a Marathon, Boxing etc. so Jesus over and over is referencing a Jewish Wedding (really a sub version, or Galilean wedding) throughout his ministry.

The Groom prepared the room in his fathers house but always waited unto the father said go get the bride, thus the reference unto not knowing the exact day nor hour. The son and father usually built a room onto his house known as the wedding chambers where the groom and bride resided for 7 days of bliss then immediately afterwards was the Marriage Supper. So, Jesus gives them this understanding over and over, so they hearing would understand, but the world hearing would not understand. 

8 – The Groom would prepare a room for the Bride in his father’s house
Church - John 14:3 – “I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself.”

The father of the groom determines when the room is ready. The groom does not determine the time of the wedding. “But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.” (Matthew 24:36)

But there are many more hints Jesus gives, and/or factors in the equation, Jesus coming to get us is just one process in a Jewish Wedding Ceremony/Pattern. And we have to meet every requirement along the way.

The steps of the traditional Jewish wedding:

1 – Selection of the Bride
Jewish Wedding - The Son chooses the Bride – the Father makes the arrangements
Church - John 15:16 – “You did not choose Me, but I chose you .”

2 – The Bride Price established
Jewish Wedding - The father of the bride must be reimbursed for the loss of his daughter.
Church - I Corinthians 6:20 - “For you were bought with a price.” The Bride price was paid when Jesus died on the Cross.

We who are saved by Jesus we were sought by the Lord. (Isaiah 65:1) Jesus paid the price on Passover. The appointed times of First-fruits and Unleavened Bread complete the picture of Jesus being resurrected and being sinless, the spotless Lamb of God.

3 – The Betrothal
Jewish Wedding - More than mere “engagement”, it was a permanent arrangement. Recall the story of Joseph and Mary.
Church – The attachment of the Church to the Lord is also permanent, and forever. “This is the bread which came down from heaven--not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.” (John 6:58) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand. (John 10:28)

4 – The Marriage Contract
Jewish Wedding – A written agreement committing each party to the marriage.
Church - The New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34) is our written agreement containing the promises of God. Jesus said, “If ye continue in my word, [then] are ye my disciples indeed;” (John 8:31)

5 – The Bride must consent
Jewish Wedding – This is not entirely an arranged marriage; the bride must agree.
Church – “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;” (Mark 16:16) “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.” (Romans 10:9)

6 A –B  The Bridal Gift and the Cup of the Covenant
Jewish Wedding – A glass of wine is taken upon the signing of the contract.
A) Church – Each time we gather around the Lord’s Table, we remember the “contract.” “And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave [it] to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament (covenant), which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” (Matthew 26:27-28)

Jewish Wedding – The Bride is given a gift by the groom.
B) Church - The Holy Spirit is given by Jesus –– “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.” (Acts 2:38) This, of course, occurred on the Day of Pentecost.

7 – The Ceremonial Purification of the Bride
Jewish Wedding - The next step for the Bride after she is betrothed is a ceremonial cleansing. In Biblical times the Bride would use a Mikvah, which was pool of water, in which she would immerse herself.

Church - Acts 2:41 – “Then those who gladly received his word were baptized (immersed); and that day about three thousand souls were added [to them].”

Of course 8 is above which is Jesus coming to take us to Heaven for our 7 year Marriage Unification. e even says he will "RECIEVE US UNTO HIMSELF". But only when the father(Father God) sends him. (later on, he's building the marriage chambers at this point.)

God comes for the nation of Israel henceforth in a separate event. So we must differentiate from this point on.

9 – The Bride is consecrated and set apart
Church - I Peter 2:9 – “But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people.”

10 – The Groom returns with a shout, “Behold, the bridegroom comes!”

Church - I Thessalonians 4:16 – “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.”

Let me insert an additional hope at this point. When the Lord Jesus comes for His Bride, the Church, we will not be totally surprised. Although the Jewish bride did not know the day or the hour, she was expectant. The Apostle Paul in speaking of “that Day” said, “But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day.” (I Thessalonians 5:4-5) Today, many in the Church are expectant and will not be totally surprised.

11 – The Bride and Groom go to the wedding chamber.
Church – This period when the Bride and Groom spend time together seems to show that the Bride of Jesus will be with Him in Heaven. This appears to indicate a pre-Tribulation gathering of the Church, and is described in Isaiah 26:20; “Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.” Praise the Lord! (I disagree with this UNKNOWN Author on Isaiah 26:20, that is about God protecting Israel in the Petra/Bozrah Sheepfold Area. NOTED). 

12 – The Marriage Supper
Church – “‘Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.’ And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. Then he said to me, ‘Write: Blessed [are] those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’” (The Revelation 19:7-9)

Armageddon is the Marriage Supper, we will "Feast on the wicked men's blood/body, which only represents us winning by choosing Faith in Jesus whilst they served their wicked hearts, we will not be dining on their blood, it is Metaphoric in nature, of course. Those who trust in Christ will be rewarded. 

As we see in Rev. 14 the 144,000 (a code for ALL Jews who repent) have the Fathers name in their foreheads, he married Israel long ago, then divorced them, but in the end times, as Zechariah 13:8-9 shows, he receives them again, then protects them. I think this was why Hosea was ordered t marry a prostitute, who kept cheating on him, then after she got old and was nit so beautiful, only Hosea loved her and received her, God was letting Israel know tat her Harlotry would cost her many years, but in the very end, He will receive her again. 

The bible is much too deep to try and understand it on a human level, only God can reveal His truths unto us. Try as we might, our mind can not understand the things of God. 

So, John 14 is talking about Jesus receiving us for our 7 Day (Year), Marriage in the Father's house (Heaven) and then as we come back to earth with Jesus we get the Wedding Feast/Marriage Supper. 

[DeighAnn]

Precept on precept, precept on precept, verse by verse, verse by verse.....

that is where HIS REST IS FOUND.  





Matthew 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

Matthew 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

Matthew 27:53 And came out of the graves after HIS resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

 

John 8:21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.

John 8:22 Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come.

John 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.


John 8:49 Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me.

John 8:50 And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.

John 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep My saying, he shall never see death.


John 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.  16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.  19 There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings.

John 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

John 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

John 11:1 Now a certain man was sick, named Lazarus, of Bethany, the town of Mary and her sister Martha.

John 11:2 (It was that Mary which anointed the Lord with ointment, and wiped his feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was sick.)

John 11:3 Therefore his sisters sent unto him, saying, Lord, behold, he whom thou lovest is sick.

John 11:4 When Jesus heard that, he said,

This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby.


John 11:23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.

John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

BUT

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 
(WHO WAS 'presently' DEAD but WERE soon to be raised up?  THOSE UNDER THE OLD COVENANT)

John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in Me, shall never die. Believest thou this?
(WHO WAS NEVER GOING TO DIE ONCE 'THE RESURRECTION AND LIFE HAD TAKEN PLACE?  THOSE WHO BELIEVED. 
(WHAT WOULD HAPPEN TO THEM?  STAY TUNED, WE ARE ABOUT TO BE TOLD)

40 Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?

John 12:23 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.

John 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

John 12:25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

John 12:26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

John 12:27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

John 12:28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.



John 12:45 And he that seeth Me seeth Him that sent Me.

John 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on Me should not abide in darkness.

John 12:47 And if any man hear My words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

(Who is judged at the LAST DAY?  Those who REJECT.  What is this 'particular' last day?
Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.)



John 13:33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.

John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

John 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

John 13:36 Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him, Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now; but thou shalt follow me afterwards.

John 13:37 Peter said unto him, Lord, why cannot I follow thee now? I will lay down my life for thy sake.

John 13:38 Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The cock shall not crow, till thou hast denied me thrice.

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again,

and receive you unto Myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

John 14:4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

John 14:5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

 

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do;

because I go unto my Father.

House, mansion, abode,  WHATEVER,  Christ is going to change the OLD COVENANT 'death and sin under the law' to the NEW COVENANT 'forgiveness for sin and under grace'. 

AND HE IS GOING TO THE FATHER and that is where we will FOLLOW.  

Before, people were 'in the grave' because of UNFORGIVEN SIN under old Covenant, 
before Christ's bloodshed,
afterwards 'believers NEVER DIE' and so only PASS THROUGH DEATH,  because DEATH NEEDS SIN to bind to.
 

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.


SO JOHN 14 COMES AT DEATH OF THE FLESH, THE SILVER CORD PARTS AND THE EARTHEN VESSEL BREAKS AND WE RETURN TO GOD.  THERE IS A NATURAL BODY AND A SPIRITUAL BODY AND ""TO EVERY SEED A BODY""

WHEN CHRIST RETURNS IT IS THE 'DEAD' WHO RISE, IT IS THE LIVING THOSE WHO 'NEVER DIE' THAT ARE RETURNING WITH HIM.  

SIMPLICITY.  THAT IS WHY THERE IS NEVER A WORD ABOUT BODY 'EXCHANGES' OR DEAD DECOMP BEING RAISED AS A 'GLORIFIED BODY'.  

OUR WORKS ARE THE 'SEED' THAT OUR SPIRITUAL BODY COMES FROM, THIS FLESH PROFITS US NOTHING.  VESSELS OF GOLD AND HONOR, VESSELS OF WOOD AND DISHONOR AND EVERY SEED A BODY GOD CHOSES.  



AND OUR JOB, OUR MISSION, OUR WORK

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Thy name: those that Thou gavest Me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

John 17:13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.

John 17:14 I have given them Thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

John 17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

John 17:17 Sanctify them through Thy truth: Thy word is truth.

John 17:18 As Thou hast sent Me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

John 17:19 And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

 

John 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on Me through their word;

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Precept on precept, precept on precept, verse by verse, verse by verse.....

that is where HIS REST IS FOUND.  

Matthew 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

Matthew 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

Matthew 27:53 And came out of the graves after HIS resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
 

John 8:21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.

John 8:22 Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come.

John 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.


John 8:49 Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me.

John 8:50 And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.

John 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep My saying, he shall never see death.


John 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.  16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.  19 There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings.

John 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

John 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

John 11:1 Now a certain man was sick, named Lazarus, of Bethany, the town of Mary and her sister Martha.

John 11:2 (It was that Mary which anointed the Lord with ointment, and wiped his feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was sick.)

John 11:3 Therefore his sisters sent unto him, saying, Lord, behold, he whom thou lovest is sick.

John 11:4 When Jesus heard that, he said,

This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby.


John 11:23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.

John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

BUT

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 
(WHO WAS 'presently' DEAD but WERE soon to be raised up?  THOSE UNDER THE OLD COVENANT)

John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in Me, shall never die. Believest thou this?
(WHO WAS NEVER GOING TO DIE ONCE 'THE RESURRECTION AND LIFE HAD TAKEN PLACE?  THOSE WHO BELIEVED. 
(WHAT WOULD HAPPEN TO THEM?  STAY TUNED, WE ARE ABOUT TO BE TOLD)

40 Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?

John 12:23 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.

John 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

John 12:25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

John 12:26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

John 12:27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

John 12:28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.



John 12:45 And he that seeth Me seeth Him that sent Me.

John 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on Me should not abide in darkness.

John 12:47 And if any man hear My words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

(Who is judged at the LAST DAY?  Those who REJECT.  What is this 'particular' last day?
Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.)



John 13:33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.

John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

John 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

John 13:36 Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him, Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now; but thou shalt follow me afterwards.

John 13:37 Peter said unto him, Lord, why cannot I follow thee now? I will lay down my life for thy sake.

John 13:38 Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The cock shall not crow, till thou hast denied me thrice.

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again,

and receive you unto Myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

John 14:4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

John 14:5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

 

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do;

because I go unto my Father.

House, mansion, abode,  WHATEVER,  Christ is going to change the OLD COVENANT 'death and sin under the law' to the NEW COVENANT 'forgiveness for sin and under grace'. 

AND HE IS GOING TO THE FATHER and that is where we will FOLLOW.  

Before, people were 'in the grave' because of UNFORGIVEN SIN under old Covenant, 
before Christ's bloodshed,
afterwards 'believers NEVER DIE' and so only PASS THROUGH DEATH,  because DEATH NEEDS SIN to bind to.
 

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.


SO JOHN 14 COMES AT DEATH OF THE FLESH, THE SILVER CORD PARTS AND THE EARTHEN VESSEL BREAKS AND WE RETURN TO GOD.  THERE IS A NATURAL BODY AND A SPIRITUAL BODY AND ""TO EVERY SEED A BODY""

WHEN CHRIST RETURNS IT IS THE 'DEAD' WHO RISE, IT IS THE LIVING THOSE WHO 'NEVER DIE' THAT ARE RETURNING WITH HIM.  

SIMPLICITY.  THAT IS WHY THERE IS NEVER A WORD ABOUT BODY 'EXCHANGES' OR DEAD DECOMP BEING RAISED AS A 'GLORIFIED BODY'.  

OUR WORKS ARE THE 'SEED' THAT OUR SPIRITUAL BODY COMES FROM, THIS FLESH PROFITS US NOTHING.  VESSELS OF GOLD AND HONOR, VESSELS OF WOOD AND DISHONOR AND EVERY SEED A BODY GOD CHOSES.  



AND OUR JOB, OUR MISSION, OUR WORK

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Thy name: those that Thou gavest Me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

John 17:13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.

John 17:14 I have given them Thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

John 17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

John 17:17 Sanctify them through Thy truth: Thy word is truth.

John 17:18 As Thou hast sent Me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

John 17:19 And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

John 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on Me through their word;

Are you saying John 14:-12 will occur individually as each believer passes?

If so, then you are saying you don't believe it will take place when the dead in Christ are raised and those who are alive are caught up. Did I understand you correctly?

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, luigi said:

I believe where the Lord is preparing our place is in the present. We all go through various trials and tests. This is how I see the Lord preparing us.

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 

So if I understand, you don't see a specific point in time when this verse will take place? 

[iamlamad]

12 hours ago, AdHoc said:

"Rapture"? Which verse? I posted three scriptures out of John 14 to show where the Lord was as He spoke these verses. He was not in rapture. He was firmly on the earth. The plain wording of John 14 says that at the time of speaking, our Lord Jesus was IN the Father and the Father IN Him. He was the ABODE of His Father. Then, He promises that "in that day" - FUTURE, His disciples will be the abode of Jesus - HIM IN THEM.

The grammar is clear. Our Lord Jesus WAS (as He spoke) IN the Father and the Father IN HIM - making Him (Jesus) the ABODE of the Father.

Now we on the right way. God transmitted His Words. These Words come from the greatest mind of the universe. They are perfectly calculated to transmit an idea. That idea is that the ABODES WHERE ALREADY THERE. There was no building needed. What was needed was a "PREPARATION". What was the "preparation" needed for the disciples to be IN Christ, Christ in them, the Father in them and later the Comforter to be IN them? That is, what hindered the disciples from being ABODES? Why .... the same thing that hindered Adam from eating from the Tree of Life - a fiery sword going every which way.

Our Lord said that He was going to prepare the way to the Father. What hindered a disciple of Jesus from going to the Father? A Curtain - a Veil. If a man steps through the Curtain of the Tabernacle he is immediately struck dead. But Jesus will make that journey and instead of us being struck, He would be struck dead (Heb.10:19-20). The way through the Veil was the tearing of Jesus' flesh.

Our Lord told His disciples that HE was PRESENTLY an ABODE of the Father, and AFTER He had prepared the WAY He would COME to His disciples and receive them to be where HE WAS ALREADY - an ABODE of the Father. Rapture does not make a man an abode of the Father. It is an escape from the earth where unimaginable things are happening to men. But the Book of John is about getting God into man that man might become the House of God. So later the Holy Spirit could say;

16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. (1 Co 3:16–17)

19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's. (1 Co 6:19–20)

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit. (Eph 2:21–22)

So also 1st Tim.3:15, 1st Pet 2:5 etc.

Quote

"Rapture"? Which verse?

Read this part again:

3  And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be...

Jesus is speaking of where He will be at a certain point in time way into the future from when He said it. The time is when He comes again. Therefore, We will be where He is at the time He comes for us. That seems to be saying just what Paul wrote in 1 Thes. 4 but with different words. At the rapture events, will Jesus have "come again to receive us to Him? Certainly this is true.

Sorry, but I disagree. 

[iamlamad]

On 4/19/2022 at 8:05 PM, OneLight said:

I won't build a doctrine or base my theology one one sentence of scripture.  The fact that Jesus said it will happen, than that's all I need to know.  The details you seek are left out ... best to leave it that way.

That is true UNLESS God answered it in another verse, such as 1 Thes. 4:16-17.