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I do understand the reason for you guys wanting to leave very well please reconsider as we need people with a solid gospel message to this world now more then ever,Jesus is coming back soon and may He find us faithful to preach the gospel to a lost world ,why don't we start today to pray for people and see what God can do through His people? I love you Davida and our beautiful flower , girls we're children of the King and we have work to do,can we be a team for God? To God be the glory ,great things he has done!

Hi MG, So sorry to hear that. We haven`t spoken much in the past, however I do know what you are saying as I miss the ones I knew and who have gone. Anyway there are some really nice, godly people (newish) here and if you take the time to get to know them you would be encouraged. I don`t get involved with too many discussions, but save my sharing on PM`s and certain areas. As you have been on for like centuries, (lol) then of course you would miss heaps of people. all the best, Marilyn.

Is it actually possible? Can we as the church actually be blinded to a huge part of our new covenant? Indeed we can.... and we have! Satan has had us, His church, blinded to the second half of the gospel, that He will not only forgive us, but will also take full responsibility to change us into His likeness if we but admit we truly do need the new nature He has for each one of us, natures necessary for us to walk totally pleasing to Him. Listen. We must understand this. Those that are in the flesh cannot please Him. He loves us, but we cannot please Him and that is a hard pill to swallow. They may truly want to, just as Paul found in Romans 7... “to will is present with me, but how to perform it, I find not.” And neither can we, even by trying our hardest to walk as He walked. There is one way to escape Romans 7 and truly walk in the power of the resurrected life of Romans 8. We must agree to let our old nature, the one that has brought misery and heartache to us all the days of our lives, die. But how can we do that? How do we die to self? Praise God, He has made a way where there is no way! He took us down with Him in death, so that His death was also ours. Glory to God! He bought for us brand new natures that are pure through and through. When we finally awake to the futility of ever trying to change ourselves, realizing that the flesh cannot.... will not... crucify the flesh, and we ‘put off’ our old corrupt natures by faith, hating even the garment stained by sin and our failing, fleshly efforts, we are finally ready to be clothed anew and truly come to understand the depth of the term “born from above”. Born again is was never meant to be a religious catch phrase. God means it in the truest sense of the word, and when we finally see it, it is flat out mind blowing. When we finally humble ourselves, believing that God can and will do in us, through these new natures, what we could never do, walk in true obedience to Him. and simply step out in faith, believing that the old us has been dead ever since the day we were first saved, we can finally understand that all these years we see we have been, as Paul said, beating the air, trying to fight something that no longer exists. Guys, I can get no more serious. We... you... me... all saints everywhere that now walk the earth, are the blessed generation that is destined to awaken to what has been hidden from our eyes for over 1900 years. This is what powered the early church to take the world by storm. This is what caused them to walk as one, one with the Lord, one with one another. It is not ‘new age”, it is not cultish, it is not to be feared. What needs to be feared is us walking even one day further in a carnal nature that God has already delivered us from. Do not fear that your faith is too weak, or what He is asking you to believe is too improbable, too impossible, to good to be true. Your faith is just enough. Your weakness is your strength. Can the gospel really be this good? Of course! This is the God we serve. This is our destiny, and it is for every single person who loves the Lord, who wants to see light win the battle their heart, so that God can reign supreme.. We have been fighting the black dog we have believed inescapable long enough. Do we get it? The black dog is dead. It is up to us to believe it. That and that alone is our part. Believe Him! Once we do that, I promise you, God will make sure we will not fail..... ever. Once He plants our feet on the highway of holiness, know this. There is no evil beast found on that highway. The weak there are strong. “And a man, though he be a fool, shall not err therein.” Yes, you can put this off for another day. But I pray the Holy Spirit gives you no rest until you listen to His still small voice and it grows to a deafening roar that you can no longer ignore. God is about to make us true overcomers, totally and completely victorious over the world, the flesh and the devil. This is our birthright. It is our high calling. If we run away, He will follow us, unrelentingly, because love does that. He will not give up until we say “Yes, Lord”, I believe”. And when we finally do, prepare to be amazed. God is about to awaken us to the truth of who we are, who we always have been, and we, His church, is about to blow Satan out of the water. About time. Blessings to you, my dear brothers and sisters in Christ, Gideon

Please rethink your decision , We will miss you !!! Who would be our Morning Glory flower?Worthy will not be the same without you,please rethink your decision and pray about it? Love you Morninglory ,may God bless you richly and someday soon ,we meet on that beautiful shore ! ( ((((Hug))))

It is ok this time is short to the eternity ahead... We your family in Christ love you! Steven

I guess I just didn't think this day would come but, now that it has, it makes me very unhappy. I've been a regular poster on this site for nearly 12 years and seldom has a day gone by when I didn't spout some opinion here or rant about something. Time has come for a change though. This site no longer 'fits'. Times change and so many are gone. There are several of the old guard still here and I'm going to miss y'all. I am not going to miss the rubbish I've been wading through this past year though. I may be back in the future, who knows?=Until then, keep the faith.

yes how are folk like me to progress if all the solid gospel folk jump ship? ive stepped back from stuff on the boards as a lot of stuff here is repetitive and at times newage and cultish focus and quite frankly at tmes trivial i can get this irl. for any folk not long into being a Christian and also those folk that come here that are finding the churches dry and shallow and the conveyor belt (bloated sheep/feel good gospels) me being one of them. its only by me coming here that i am starting to see just how in error things really are and how will folk like me ever get beyond the snare of the bells whistles and drums. it takes a while to unhook from this. but it seems the Lord has blessed me to persevere. i still dont feel confident to do what i call the proper christian stuff and also there are some peeps on here who argue for argue sake imo and in a way can destroy a good thread.(not saying it was a good thread lol!) i had that happen on two of my threads, actually the same person twice used it as a platform to have a go at someone. and so they were closed. cant work out if this was deliberate or an habitual response. its very disrespectful and i was shocked at this behaviour and disappointed

Friend-ship When two are on board.

When ever someone breaks a relationship there is always a reason or reasons.. People owe it to a former friend to at lest let them know why they are breaking off a relationship.. Communication is extremely important in any relationship.. Once clear and calm communication breaks down then any relationship will soon be shipwrecked.. That's why the ""silent treatment"" is probably the Worst tactic / habit to have.. If a person ends the relationship and does not tell you why then they probably had the ""silent treatment"" tactic for a while in the relationship anyway.. Humans are human and they are faulty.. So friendships often do end.. A relationship is like a garden.. It needs regular tending to otherwise it becomes weed infested and in time is no longer a garden..

Of course not. Titus 3:5-7 "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life." "a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus" (Gal.2:16) Romans 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." We do good works BECAUSE we are saved, not in order to BECOME saved.

Our brother Mel85 lives in Orissa, one of the States under that law.

"Oh, look! There are people ready to explain the sudden removal of millions. That must mean that pretrib is true!" And you think Satan is telling the truth in that video? Maybe he is trying to reinforce his own lies by presenting such views as "justification" for them. Could be serving that purpose instead. And around and around it goes. The only way to win that game against Satan is through the Word and Spirit of God.

Oh dear. I always like talking to you. Even though we disagreed on almost everything. Yet you are one of the few people I can disagree with and still be respectful to each other. Truth be known I have been feeling much the same way too. I don't post as much as I use too, and I get kind of stressed out by things on here sometimes. Well we each have to do what is best for us and go where God is leading us. Feel free to message me anytime if you like.

Hi mabel and SisterActs, Thanks for your encouragement and so glad you are learning (as I did) more of God`s word and the Lord. Looking at God`s word with the Lord as the focus really makes His word much clearer and bite size. Lots more to come. Marilyn. BTW I do like your description mabel of `a landscape` a setting for each book.

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Elderly aquatic bird or elderly eccentric person, which ever you identify with, there is nothing about what I have said that is inconsistent with OT teaching. In fact it is the explanation of Jesus, Paul, and John concerning what the Prophets foretold of Christ's coming. The day of the Lord is the most spoken of event in all of Scripture. It is to be expected that the New Testament authors would have something to say about the day of the Lord. Jesus, in answering the questions, "when shall these things be and what shall be the sign of thy coming and the end of the world (aion)" lays out the most detailed chronology of the seventieth week that we find in the Scriptures. John perhaps provides more detail to some of the characters and events, but Jesus ties it together like no other NT author. Also concerning leaving something out, there is only so much that can be dealt with in any given post. Follow me if you care to see the rest. Jesus told Peter, "get thee behind me Satan", when he told Jesus that He would have glory without suffering. That sounds like the same thing that pre-tribbers preach today. "Oh, don't worry we'll be outta here before the tribulation comes". The lie will be most pernicious for those who, like the stony ground, gladly received the Word, but when persecution came for the Word's sake, they are offended and fall away. These are the many who are happy to be fair-weather Christians, they are near but still outside of Christ. The test will shew the truth of the matter. Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Hallelujah

Just a couple of thoughts to throw in the pot that might be worth keeping in mind....one is that Adam was of the earth, earthy....not spiritual like the second Adam.....and only pronounced "good" and "very good" by God........not perfect. Perfect has to do with being spiritual, being born of the spirit and being matured in the spirit. Adam and Eve had not partaken of the Tree of Life. Also, I believe that where God says He repented of having made man......I don't think it can mean quite in the same sense that we humans would be sorry for something.....because God in His foreknowledge (knowing the end from the beginning) would have foreseen everything that was going to happen, and yet He created man anyhow.....and we know that He doesn't make mistakes.

This is an absolutely booming economy. Jobs are easy to come by minimum wages are more and more reaching $15 an hour by demand not by decrees of government. Real wages are going up. Self employment is easier than ever for those willing to really work very hard. Good work is available for those with skills and for those that have the skill to learn. Many however have bought into the idea that all is woe and they just seek misery as their company. For many a false sense of pride must be discarded, and a bold embracing of work begun. In my "old age" I learned to clean toilets for an amazingly large sum of money per year. That is not all I did, but as my Lord led me I did find I needed to rebuild restrooms and then had to keep them up doing the cleaning of them too. Why? Because it is nearly impossible to get anyone to do work they think does not meet their high minded ideal of what work should be for them. If it does not fit their "career path" they would rather sit at home and play computer games and visit Christian Message Forums all day and half the night long day after day after day. Why learning to be an knowledgeable janitor is not an impossible skill to learn, and it is a skill that pays pretty darn well, a whole lot more than any retail worker gets or any fast food worker earns. There is such a need for workers, but few workers for the "harvests". That is more than a Biblical admonition, it is reality,, perhaps in all areas of life today.

Amen to that!....

Dan , I have read some of your posts . the attacks on paul shows me something is major off in your understanding . the man preached Christ non stop . He pointed to JESUS only non stop . If you see paul as being in error, then you need to start over and re read . paul, james , peter , jude , the others , preached the same JESUS and the same message . their writings do not contradict each other, they compliment each other . It seems you have a savage hatred against paul for some reason . What are you misunderstanding , or worse what did paul teach that you don't like . cause its something . Peter recognized paul and his writings as divinely inspired wisdom . You have to be misunderstanding , misinterpreting something .

There are different curses that can be seen operating down through family lines....the result of Godlessness and sin/iniquity, and is God's righteous judgment/chastisement. But we have to remember that for any individual the gospel has power to set the person free from those curses through repentance and faith in Christ, and following Him.

The first recorded miracle was water into wine... but it is noteworthy that Mary came to Jesus about the problem of no wine. It certainly suggests that Mary knew Jesus could fix the problem...

Awesome!!!

Well, in a sense I agree, but for the Christian this especially needs be something they exercise discernment on. Maybe the friend simply forgot, or had another more important engagement, or was severely depressed and didn't want to be around anyone, or felt slighted by something WE had done without even realizing it... I think this is where you go to God and ask for His heart on the matter. And if it calls for forgiveness, then strengthen yourself to obey your Heavenly Father (and theirs, hopefully).

Is Christ divided? Can we have salvation without santifcation? The Gospel is good news for man. What is that good news? “That the seed of the women shall bruise the serpents head” Meaning, a undoing of the fall of Adam. And how is that to be done? By replacing the Fallen Creation with the New Creation. All that this involves, is the Good News (Gospel) of Jesus Christ. Much love in Christ, Not me

Good idea, Dan, about the growing of food in vacant plots of land. Of course, you need the permission of the owners of the land, but I've heard of this being done several times. Usually, the poor families will be allowed to each farm a small plot of their own. The needy families are really grateful for the opportunity. They care for their gardens and then harvest their crops. Oh, about the supermarkets...here in Los Angeles I understand the markets donate the food that will soon be too old to sell.

Here is a church "constitution" www.hisholychurch.net/mission.php www.hisholychurch.net/home.php I have found online (I am not affiliated before anyone pipes in I found it looking for on topic look at what other churches see as a healthy congregation, I offer it in good faith for the point of identifying what this particular church states as a worthy missision and as it outlines the duties of the church itself). It covers alot of what is being discussed in this thread and I found it interesting as it covers all aspects of what a church is meant to do and the key word in all of this is to SERVE.

What did paul and peter both say concerning the cross of Our Lord . Many know he paid the price . IS their also more to this . well, lets first hear what peter said . Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, That we being DEAD to sins , SHOULD LIVE UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS. Peter said that . but what did paul say . For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection , KNOWING THIS , that our OLD man is crucified with HIM , that the body OF sin might be destroyed ,that henceforth we should not serve sin. Know ye not , that to whom you yield yourselves servants to obey , his servants you are to whom you obey . whether of sin unto death or of obedience unto righteousness. But God be thanked , that ye were the servants of sin , but you have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you . BEING THEN MADE FREE FROM SIN, you became the servants of righteousness. Someone knew what JESUS meant when he had said , To those who believed on him, IF you continue in me , you are my desciples indeed and the TRUTH shall set you free. Just a few nuggets to feast on .

The works James was refering to were works of charity or kindness to someone who had a need for some food. So the asking party , the person in need, before he approach his neibour's house he was praying and asking God to help him and ask the having neibour to help him. The scripture said that God will provide. So he had the faith that God will provide through this man and he knocked on his door, only to find out that his faith did not produce the fruit theroff because the rich man did not do the work of charity to meet his need. That's what James is telling his cogregation if those who have do not do the good work of charity, their fellows in need will be hungry, no matter how much they pray and ask God to help them

"We can all draw close to Him with the veil removed from our faces. And with no veil we all become like mirrors who brightly reflect the glory of the Lord Jesus. We are being transfigured into His very image as we move from one brighter level of glory to another. And this glorious transfiguration comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit" - 2 Corinthians 3:18 We are in an hour where the greater glory is being poured out, which means the Church has a decision to make. Where God is highlighting the invitation for more of Him, He is also creating a distaste in the mouth of Believers for the fading glory. We just can't operate how we once did, camping around methods and messages, that simply do not carry this greater glory of the Gospel of Jesus. God is giving an opportunity for those who have been running on their own steam – to lay everything down and be filled afresh. It's His glory or nothing! His glory purifies and heals and He is purifying so deeply in this hour. He's doing it not to expose or shame, but to align our hearts with His again, so we can run strong! You are His glorious temple, His resting place – His habitation. He is asking today if you would allow Him to come in and open up the windows and doors of your heart so HE, the King of glory (Psalm 24:9), can come in and have His way. The Lord is shining His glory-light on dusty, dry bones piled up in the corners of hearts. Passion and zeal for the lost are buried under the stones of defeat. Let His glory flood your heart today. It's time to ARISE from the ground & SHINE! Romans 8:33 -- "Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies." Mark 15:3 -- "And the chief priest accused Him of many things, but He answered nothing." Why didn't Jesus defend Himself? The reason: to remain under His Father's judgment and thus His protection. When we refuse to defend ourselves we are hidden under the hand of God's grace and judgment. There is no safer place. In contrast, those who defend themselves come under the jurisdiction of their accusers and their judgment, and thus they forfeit divine intervention. The moment I justify and defend myself I yield to my accuser as judge. I forfeit my spiritual right of protection, for He (my accuser) rises above me in the realm of the spirit as I answer His criticism. His influence is elevated by my self-defense. By attempting to prove my innocence, I am at the mercy of my accuser. 1 Peter 2:23 -- "He (Jesus) did not retaliate when He was insulted. When He suffered, He did not threaten to get even. He left His case in the hands of God, who always judges fairly." "I am the true Vine, and My Father is the Vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit." (John 15:1-2 NASB) We are anointed to transform our area of influence for the advancement of the Kingdom and to bring glory to God. God anoints us to fulfill the plans and CALLING He has for us. The anointing allows you to move into a supernatural walk with God. The Lord is filling people with His Spirit and increasing the anointing on the lives of people so they may powerfully impact their area of influence for Him. This is a time of transformation for those who surrender to the Lord and submit to the pruning and refining that the Lord is doing at this time. There is a repositioning and realigning that is occurring as part of the preparation for what is coming. The Lord is removing hindrances and refreshing His people. He is filling them with the power of His Spirit and raising them up to carry His PURPOSE for their lives. AFFIRMATIONS: I am not designed to drift - I am designed for DESTINY. God has called me with a holy calling, not according to my works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given to me in Christ Jesus before the world began. Since I am in Christ I am in another reality and another life altogether. ALBERT FINCH MINISTRY http://afministry.ning.com

Where Israel Is At Go, my people, enter your rooms and shut the doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until his wrath has passed by. See, the Lord is coming out of his dwelling to punish the people of the earth for their sins. The earth will disclose the blood shed on it; the earth will conceal its slain no longer. Isaiah 26:20-21 (New International Version) And Where Israel Will Be Then I will pour out a spirit of grace and prayer on the house of David and the residents of Jerusalem, and they will look at Me whom they pierced. They will mourn for Him as one mourns for an only child and weep bitterly for Him as one weeps for a firstborn. Zechariah 12:10 (Holman Christian Standard Bible) Folks, Could It Be Made Any Clearer I will go and return to my place, until they acknowledge their offense, and seek my face. In their affliction they will seek me earnestly." Hosea 5:15 (New Heart English Bible) Love, Your Brother Joe PS: Go Trump Go~! lol~!

Its all good. I am just making light of a serious issue. I don't trust any of them people on the right or on the left. I think they all are out for themselves. They should all be eating bologna everyday!

Really. We all even me, talk about the homeless like it is "them people over there' But you know. The reality for a lot of working people is they could be just one missed paycheck away from being one of them homeless people over there. Just one unexpected thing happen to you and everything you have. Everything you work for can be gone! Then there you are. Part of them homeless people over there. That is how it can happen.

Hi Shilohsfoal, The story has not yet finished. There are lots of Israeli villages outside the walls that Israel put up. And...next year we will probably see a settling of the conflict in Syria and Iraq, so there will be peace in that region, (note: before the Russian War). Thus scripture will yet be fulfilled. You are too quick to judge when the story has not yet been played out. Marilyn.

Works never saved anyone.

Hello Morning Glory. Didn't recognize you with your 'new' picture. Houston is where I found my bride, 47 yrs ago. (why I like Houston)....

I had to take a long nap....back to your questions.... The Church leader should be very skilled in the knowledge of the Bible and its meaning before becoming a leader....IMHO... The sheep are not helpless nor without blame as to the condition of the church....they are to study the Word for themselves and know whether there is err in the leaders teaching....most churches have board members that direct and some even dictate to the pastor what they want taught....not good to do this but it happens a lot....and if a pastor starts teaching other doctrines outside their beliefs he tends to get a warning then voted out... Many churches share and take turns in the teaching of the Word....it's up to that particular church.... The Bible tells us to be under the authority of a leader....such as a preacher....so that there is a maintaining of order in the House of God.....Pastors have a huge responsibility to take necessary actions when there are disruptions and chaos in the sanctuary... A true leader is a humble leader and does not exhort himself above his flock but rather serves them in the capacity of love and compassion for the Truth of God's Word.

hello Marilyn very interesting the overview gives each 'b00k' a landscape. loving the diagram!

0h thanks Marilyn as i have been backward forwards and round and around with this and then just let it go lol!

I receive these 'Daily Devotionals' sent to me from a ministry I'm involved in, and thought this one I received yesterday would fit in here. Timing Your Assignment in Life When you know what your God-given assignment in life is, and that God is on your side, you become virtually unstoppable. Will you make mistakes? Sure, but God loves you enough to correct you, redirect you, and get you back on track. “How do I go about discovering my assignment?” you ask. Here are fourteen helpful questions to ask yourself: (1) What desires have been living in me most of my life? (2) What motivates me to work hard and be productive? (3) What keeps me going forward when I’m worn out? (4) What makes me refuse to quit when I meet with resistance? (5) What do I do that doesn’t seem like work? (6) What do I do that brings a positive response and support from people? (7) What am I doing or what’s happening in my life when doors seem to open automatically and effortlessly? (8) What do wise leaders and godly counselors think about my work? (9) What makes me feel good about being who I am? (10) What makes my creative juices flow? (11) What am I willing to sacrifice in order to accomplish it? (12) What am I doing that I’d be proud to offer for God’s approval? (13) What would I do without being paid for it if I could afford to? (14) What would I be willing to withstand Satan on in order to accomplish? Prayerfully consider these fourteen questions, and they will shed light on your God-given assignment in life.

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Dennis1209, millions of Christians (who are part of the bride) have been persecuted unto death over the last century. Do you think our brethren being slaughtered, is the groom beating up His bride? I hope not. If you do, either you are a hyper Calvinist who places God behind all that happens to the believer, or you think that the intensification of the persecution in the great tribulation is a part of God's wrath upon the day of the Lord. If you believe either you are in error. We are not appointed unto wrath. We are removed from the earth before God's wrath is poured out upon the day of the Lord. 1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. ... 1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. Notice the divine conjunction, "But", contrasts the fate of the Beast worshipers with that of the Church. "They" are caught unawares (like a theif in the night catches the homeowner unsuspecting) by Christ's return. However, we are not unsuspecting because we are watching for those signs Jesus told His disciples would portend His coming. We are raptured to be with Him in Heaven while He pours out His wrath upon the earth dwellers. They face sudden destruction but we are saved from it. Paul presents the fact that we are to be removed from the earth, where we have been persecuted, before His wrath is poured out upon our persecutors. 2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. Notice, that vs 6 said that God would recompense tribulation to them who troubled the church, them who persecuted the Church. Notice also, Paul said that the church would rest (not be under persecution) at that time when God tribulates our persecutors. He says, that will take place at His glorious appearance when He arrives with His angels to take vengeance upon our persecutors. Jesus said His wrath would fall the same day that we are taken to safety. Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. Luk 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Luk 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. Joel prophesied of the indicator (cosmic sign) of Christ's arrival to rescue His own and pour out His wrath upon their persecutors. Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. Jesus said that the cosmic sign immediately follows the great tribulation (unprecedented persecution of the Church and Israel). Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. John saw the cosmic sign at the opening of the sixth seal where it will portend the arrival of Christ at His coming, beginning the day of the Lord. Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? The great tribulation and the day of the Lord are two different events or periods of time in which fierce wrath is expressed here upon the earth. The first is Satan's wrath against those who are precious to God, the church and Israel (Rev 12:12). The second is God's wrath against those who worshiped the Beast and thereby did worship the Dragon (Satan) and persecuted the church and Israel. These are separated by the cosmic sign and Christ's arrival to gather His own unto Himself. Yes, Yes, Yes, the Lord will remove His faithful servants before His wrath is poured out. The blessed hope is not deliverance from persecution, nor is it being caught up (raptured), it is Jesus and has always been Jesus. Every believer, those who sleep in Christ and those who survive until the coming of the Lord, will see Jesus in all His glory at His appearing. all will experience the blessed hope. When He descends from Heaven into the clouds He will resurrect those who sleep and change those who survived, so that we together, shall see Him and be gathered unto Him in the clouds. There will be no pre-seventieth week rapture. That is what pre-trib means. It means before the seventieth week begins. It is a lie from the father of lies, just like all other falsehoods. I am not saying that those who teach it are purposely being deceptive. They are misunderstanding a few important truths about the week and it is causing their eschatological model to be askew. Satan takes great joy in that because escapist preaching leaves the saints unprepared for the most severe persecution that has ever been faced and many will be offended and fall away. I have written these things in love for those who are Christ's. Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. All praise, honour, and glory be unto Jesus Christ our Lord.

Well, your opinion is as good and any other. But you are on point... it really doesn't matter what any of us think about it... God is sovereign and has it already laid to according to His will.

I use to work at a food bank handing out food. It’s sad, but 80-90% of the people that came in enjoyed living like they were. They’ed go from food bank to food bank stocking up on whatever they could get. Sell/trade want they could, mostly for drugs and alcohol. Kept what they wanted. Had no desire to change or improve that state. That was the sad part, was a real eye opener. The 10% or so that wanted to get out of their situation, I felt compassion for. The rest, they were just looking for a way to take advantage. They’ed talk a good game but it was just talk. It was just so you’d let your guard down and give them more. Every once in awhile you’d meet someone had a good heart, that were honestly trying to do the right thing. They would most definitely make your day. Much love in Christ, Not me

Hi Chris, While I agree with your first part, I think the part in bold will need perhaps a new thread to discuss it in detail. regards, Marilyn.

just my personal opinion both. When we love God with all our heart minds and souls we will not do the sins you mention, and if we love our neighbors we will be concerned and help them in whatever ways we can. When we live by the two commandments that Jesus gave us in reality those things are just a natural part of our lives. Good works is living the life that comes natural when one has close contact with the Holy Spirit..... and if one is really saved, he/she has the Holy Spirit within them.

No we don't do good works to be saved...... but if you are saved you will have good works of some kind.... it's just natural.

Adam was created from the dust of the earth and this was before the fall.........but he was given a spirit when God breathed in his nostrils, and he became a living soul. Anyhow, the following scriptures should be helpful with the point I was making: 1Co 15:44-49 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 1Co 2:14-15 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 1Co 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. Gal 6:1 Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted. Luk 13:32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected. Jhn 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Heb 5:8-9 Alhough he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Rev 7:2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, Rev 7:3 saying, "Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads." The bible says that there are 144,000 who are sealed and servants of God. That is all. It does not say that they will preach. Is it possible that they will preach? Yes. It doesn't say that though. This is the danger of theories that attribute doctrinal finality when there is no specificity. I personally believe that they will be witnesses, because that's one of the things that servants of God are indeed called to do. That is not listed as their specific function, though, so building that into an expansive doctrine and making parts of that doctrine dependent upon that and then teaching the entire doctrine as unmitigated inerrant fact is going too far. Rev 14:1 Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father's name written on their foreheads. Rev 14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, like the voice of many waters, and like the voice of loud thunder. And I heard the sound of harpists playing their harps. Rev 14:3 They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth. Rev 14:4 These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. Rev 14:5 And in their mouth was found no deceit, for they are without fault before the throne of God. The bible says one of the specific purposes of the 144,000 were being the redeemed among men, firstfruits to God and the Lamb. Having opinions on other purposes, in my estimation, is fine, building those opinions into intricate doctrines and then teaching them as definitive fact, is not, again, in my estimation.

I've come to the conclusion concerning eschatology that people can, and do, believe whatever seems good to them for a number of reasons. It matters little and has no effect on what will actually transpire. We are never told to figure it all out and compel others to agree with us, as if that would somehow validate what we think. What matters is that we seek first His kingdom and righteousness, that we stand resolutely against the things of this world by walking in the truth. Relaxing leads to sleeping, and we're cautioned against that.

I think Revelation chapter 13 would keep most all of us from the wrath of God. And kind of answer where all the souls under the throne spoken of in those white robes came from.