Forums

  You can talk in circles around this all day long if you so desire, but your entire argument is flawed.  If it was the catching away, Paul would have used the word harpazo, the fact that he does not disproves your claim.  There is a huge difference between departing or fleeing versus catching away.  You basically call my understanding into question of a language I do understand, and worse than that, you call into question individuals whose understanding of Greek surpasses my own.  My understanding is that I can trust the Word of God, whilst you call it a bad translation to support a theory.  Hence, why I am more than happy to have the understanding I do. The man of sin is revealed after the falling away as the verse states, and the falling away has absolutely nothing to do with the catching away.  The parable from Mark makes that perfectly clear, and anyone capable of reading can see that clearly.   Mark 4:13 And he said to them, “Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables? 14 The sower sows the word. 15 And these are the ones along the path, where the word is sown: when they hear, Satan immediately comes and takes away the word that is sown in them. 16 And these are the ones sown on rocky ground: the ones who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy. 17 And they have no root in themselves, but endure for a while; then, when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately they fall away. 18 And others are the ones sown among thorns. They are those who hear the word, 19 but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches and the desires for other things enter in and choke the word, and it proves unfruitful. 20 But those that were sown on the good soil are the ones who hear the word and accept it and bear fruit, thirtyfold and sixtyfold and a hundredfold.”   Now if you want to sit here and argue that the ones sown on the rocky ground that depart from His word when troubles arise are going to be raptured away, then you really need to go back to the beginning of Revelation and read what is said to the 7 CHURCHES.   Revelation 2:4 But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. 5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent. 6 Yet this you have: you hate the works of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. 7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.’   Revelation 3:10 Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth. 11 I am coming soon. Hold fast what you have, so that no one may seize your crown. 12 The one who conquers, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God. Never shall he go out of it, and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down from my God out of heaven, and my own new name.   Here are just two of them as samples, and I included the only one you seem to acknowledge as existing because I think it addresses this fairly well as to your contradiction.  Notice how this church kept His word about patient endurance?  What was it the seed on the rocky soil failed to do?  Hint:  they failed to endure, when tribulation or persecution arose they FELL AWAY.  Now please, explain this in regards to your position. God bless

So now we have to understand, God loves. All His Children. Even those who know him not.  We know God doesn't create people for hell. The idea of that is insane. In understanding scripture, Paul makes a curious statement. "For those who know the Law, they will be judged by the Law. And for those who do not know the Law, they will be judged by the Law written in thier hearts". This bears witness to the fact, all are eligible to be children of God. We should not so redilly judge the grace God allows all mankind. It is from our love and God's love that the world can still be saved.

God is not Hate. That is of the devil.   Scripture states, "God is Love".  If Jesus, the Word of God, says, 'God is Love', then Jesus is also speaking of Himself. "The Father and I are One". Therefore, we can understand, the nature of Jesus is Love.  Look at the thief on the cross, he cared nothing for himself, but showed compassion to Jesus. Compassion, a form of Love. Christ was already present in the thief, even before Jesus told him " today you'll be with me in Paradise."

Heres your throne evidence you have been asking for.   The three are around the throne right now btw. It isnt some future event.       ◄ 1 John 5:7 ► For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary 5:6-8 We are inwardly and outwardly defiled; inwardly, by the power and pollution of sin in our nature. For our cleansing there is in and by Christ Jesus, the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Ghost. Some think that the two sacraments are here meant: baptism with water, as the outward sign of regeneration, and purifying from the pollution of sin by the Holy Spirit; and the Lord's supper, as the outward sign of the shedding Christ's blood, and the receiving him by faith for pardon and justification. Both these ways of cleansing were represented in the old ceremonial sacrifices and cleansings. This water and blood include all that is necessary to our salvation. By the water, our souls are washed and purified for heaven and the habitation of saints in light. By the blood, we are justified, reconciled, and presented righteous to God. By the blood, the curse of the law being satisfied, the purifying Spirit is obtained for the internal cleansing of our natures. The water, as well as the blood, came out of the side of the sacrificed Redeemer. He loved the church, and gave himself for it, that he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word; that he might present it to himself a glorious church, Eph 5:25-27. This was done in and by the Spirit of God, according to the Saviour's declaration. He is the Spirit of God, and cannot lie. Three had borne witness to these doctrines concerning the person and the salvation of Christ. The Father, repeatedly, by a voice from heaven declared that Jesus was his beloved Son. The Word declared that He and the Father were One, and that whoever had seen him had seen the Father. And the Holy Ghost, who descended from heaven and rested on Christ at his baptism; who had borne witness to Him by all the prophets; and gave testimony to his resurrection and mediatorial office, by the gift of miraculous powers to the apostles. But whether this passage be cited or not, the doctrine of the Trinity in Unity stands equally firm and certain. To the doctrine taught by the apostles, respecting the person and salvation of Christ, there were three testimonies. 1. The Holy Spirit. We come into the world with a corrupt, carnal disposition, which is enmity to God. This being done away by the regeneration and new-creating of souls by the Holy Spirit, is a testimony to the Saviour. 2. The water: this sets forth the Saviour's purity and purifying power. The actual and active purity and holiness of his disciples are represented by baptism. 3. The blood which he shed: and this was our ransom, this testifies for Jesus Christ; it sealed up and finished the sacrifices of the Old Testament. The benefits procured by his blood, prove that he is the Saviour of the world. No wonder if he that rejects this evidence is judged a blasphemer of the Spirit of God. These three witnesses are for one and the same purpose; they agree in one and the same thing.

Hi Retro, I agree that the Gentiles are now included into the household of God, fellow citizens with the saints. `Now therefore ye (the Gentile Ephesians to whom Paul was writing) are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints (the holy ones; that is, the ones consecrated for God), and of the household of God;..`  (Eph. 2: 19) (as you wrote) However the assumption that we are now part of Israel has NO biblical foundation. Let`s look at some scriptures. `These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, they were assured of them, embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For those who say such things, declare plainly that they seek a homeland. And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. But now they desire a better, that is, a HEAVENLY COUNTRY. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.` (Heb. 11: 13 - 16) Here we see the OT saints (Israelis and some Gentiles) who believed God for the promise of a heavenly city. We read on further and see that they await their inheritance in the General Assembly. `But you have come to Mount Zion, and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the General Assembly and Church of the first born who are registered in heaven, to God the judge of all, to the spirits of just men (& women) made perfect, to Jesus, the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.` (Heb. 12: 22 - 24) So the OT saints are awaiting their inheritance, the heavenly city, in the General Assembly. Now notice the other group (besides angels) the Church of the first-born. They are also there but distinguished from the OT saints. If we are all in Israel then it would only say - the righteous ones. However God`s word is very specific and says - the Church of the first-born registered in heaven...and the just (righteous men and women) made perfect, (by their righteous works. Heb. 11: 33). The Body of Christ on the other hand is made perfect, righteous through Christ. The OT saints never had that possibility. Then we read of the two inheritances - `God having provided something BETTER  for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.` (Heb. 11: 40) We, the Body of Christ have our inheritance in God`s great kingdom and so do the OT saints (& others) also in a part of God`s great kingdom. The question then is where are the different ones placed that God has specifically delineated in His word. regards, Marilyn.