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Three Days and Three Nights

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#1
LoyalGypsy

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Whenever the three days and three nights of Matthew 12:40 is brought up in a "discussion" with 6th day crucifixion folks,

they frequently argue that it is a Jewish idiom for counting any part of a day as a whole day.

I wonder if anyone has documentation that shows that the phrase "x" days and "x"nights was ever used in the first century or before when it absolutely didn’t include at least parts of the "x" days and at least parts of the "x" nights?



Greetings


They frequently argue that it is a Jewish idiom for counting any part of a day as a whole day.



Do you have an example; the reference offered is kind of vague
How many parts of a day are there?


LG

Edited by LoyalGypsy, 27 March 2013 - 02:15 PM.

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#2
rstrats

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LoyalGypsy,

re: "Do you have an example..."

Not sure what kind of an example you are asking for?

 

re: "How many parts of a day are there?"

I guess as many as you want.

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#3
Mcgyver

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Mcgyver,

re: "Might want to check post #19...I hopefully answered your question."

I'm afraid I don't see where your post #19 provides writing from the first century or before that shows a period of time that is said to consist of a specific number of days as well as a specific number of nights where the period of time absolutely doesn't/can't include at least a part of each one of the specific number of days and at least a part of each one of the specific number of nights.


Sorry I missed this...but the purpose was to show that no such prohibition existed (at least to my knowledge). :)
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#4
rstrats

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Mcgyver,

re: "...the purpose was to show that no such prohibition existed..."

Then there should be some actual use of the "idiom" that absolutely demonstrates that position.
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#5
Mcgyver

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Whenever the three days and three nights of Matthew 12:40 is brought up in a "discussion" with 6th day crucifixion folks, they frequently argue that it is a Jewish idiom for counting any part of a day as a whole day. I wonder if anyone has documentation that shows that the phrase "x" days and "x"nights was ever used in the first century or before when it absolutely didn’t include at least parts of the "x" days and at least parts of the "x" nights?


No, just the opposite.

Rabbi Eleazar ben Azariah, a contemporary of Gamaliel in the 1st Century "codified" (if you will) that which had always been customary. He wrote: "A day and a night are an Onah (a portion of time) and the portion of an Onah is as the whole of it" (J.Talmud, Shabbath 9.3 and b.Talmud, Pesachim 4)


Your original question, and my answer with references.


Mcgyver,

re: "...the purpose was to show that no such prohibition existed..."

Then there should be some actual use of the "idiom" that absolutely demonstrates that position.


I'm confused...what exactly are you wanting to see?

Edited by Mcgyver, 27 March 2013 - 03:23 PM.

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#6
rstrats

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Mcgyver,

re: "I'm confused...what exactly are you wanting to see?"

Any writing from the first century or before that shows that a phrase stating a specific number of days as well as a specific number of nights was ever used when it absolutely didn’t include at least a part of each one of the specific number of days and at least a part of each one of the specific number of nights.
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#7
LoyalGypsy

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LoyalGypsy,
re: "Do you have an example..."

Not sure what kind of an example you are asking for?


Greetings

Not sure what kind of an example you are asking for?


You brought this up and said
They frequently argue that it is a Jewish idiom for counting any part of a day as a whole day.

Not sure what kind of an example you are asking for


The argument

If I knew what they frequently argue, I wouldn’t have asked



LG
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#8
Fez

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LoyalGypsy,
re: "Do you have an example..."

Not sure what kind of an example you are asking for?


Greetings

Not sure what kind of an example you are asking for?


You brought this up and said
They frequently argue that it is a Jewish idiom for counting any part of a day as a whole day.

Not sure what kind of an example you are asking for


The argument

If I knew what they frequently argue, I wouldn’t have asked



LG

touche' Gypsy, touche'
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#9
rstrats

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LoyalGypsy,

re: "The argument If I knew what they frequently argue, I wouldn’t have asked"

Sorry; when you asked in your post #37 "Do you have an example" I honestly did not know to what you were referring. It never crossed my mind that it was with regard to "the argument" since that knowledge has nothing to do with being able to provide the information asked for in the OP.

But to anwer your question, the argument with 6th day crucifixion proponents is that Matthew 12:40 is an idiom and therefore doesn't have to include at least a part of each one of the 3 days and at least a part of each one of the 3 nights.
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#10
Brother Paul

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Hi I am knew to this forum and look forward to learning much and pray the Lord will also let me bring Him glory...

A rather unique history recorded in ancient Jewish writings tells us of a tradition that developed which is not Torah but became the custom in Jerusalem. This article in its entirety can be found at http://www.templeins...rg/passover.htm but this is not the only source...

This is only one of the witnesses that a change had taken place regarding the Passover meal. First off the Temple priests had instituted a tradition that

a) "a passover sacrifice" was to be made in the Temple

b) that all Jewish people had to bring an offering

c) and that the lambs for the Temple Sedar would be slain on the afternoon of the 14th of Nisan (the eve and morn being a day) and the non-Torah Temple Sedar would be eaten on the evening of the 15th

This was against or contrary to God's laws in thew Torah which specifically say the Passover lamb was to be slain right after sundown on the 14th, bled, and roasted and eaten "in that night" (Exodus 12:8), not in the daylight portion of the 14th and not on the 15th. Second there is no mention in the Torah of all Jews having to bring their Passover offering (which itself is not Torah) to the Temple (which did not even exist yet for 100s of years). A real Kosher or Hallel slaying of the lamb requires about 4 hours for total bleed out...then it is washed and roasted (another couple of hours) and then eaten....

This "tradition" of a Temple Sedar was developed by men after the Babylonian captivity, and like Sabbath corporate worship in the Synagogue, as well as the Feast of Dedication, it had become seen as obligatory to the masses but was not in any way commanded by God. It was their custom (culturally accepted religious norm and nothing more)

So Jesus kept the appropriate Torah based Sedar with His brethren (and probably the women that were with them) on the evening of the 14th of Nisan and was crucified (slain) in the daylight portion of the same day (at the time the Temple priests were slaying the lambs for their man made Temple Sedar). They developed this tradition with a goodly motive. The idea of a Temple Sedar was to hold the celebration for all those who were travelling and could not be in a home, and for the poor who could not afford a lamb, but by the time of Jesus (like these two other "customs" I mentioned) it had become common place and expected of everyone.

So Jesus was slain on Passover. The fact He had to be taken down and buried before sundown means the next eve/morn cycle was the 7th day Sabbath (which by chance also was the first day of the Torah feat of unleavened bread)...now the feast of first fruits always falls right after the 7th day Sabbath (again proving this middle day to be the 7th day Sabbath) in this feast no matter when the feast begins (on a 1st day, a 3rd day, etc,) and we know from scripture He rose on the feast of first fruits..that is why Passover (the original Christian Pashal celebration celebrating His death till He comes) no matter what day of the week it falls on, is the week when our Easter (the feast of first fruits when Jesus rose from the tomb) directly follows.

So now do the math...Passover was on the 6th day of the week in this year (when He was crucified), He rested in the tomb all of the 7th day Sabbath, and rose on the feast of first fruits (which always immediately follows the 7th day Sabbath in the Feast of Unleavened Bread)....count it any way you will but He rose the third day.

Now then in regard to the OP...no there is no example from scripture where the three days and three nights idiom does NOT mean it includes at least a part of all three days...

In His love

Brother Paul

Edited by Brother Paul, 06 April 2013 - 11:11 AM.

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#11
HAZARD

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Non believers are not in the slightest bit interested in what the Bible says about God or Jesus Christ because what the Bible teaches conflicts with their way of life. Here is what the Bible says regarding Jesus time in the grave.

Jesus died on Wednesday. This is clear from the fact that He was fully Three days and Three Nights in Hell while His body was in the tomb (Read Matt. 12:40; Ehp. 4:7-11; Ps. 16:10), and that He rose early on the first day of the week, which was after sunset Saturday (Read Matt. 28:1; Mark 16:1-2; Luke 24:1-6; John 20:1-10).

If Jesus had been buried on Friday, before sunset, as fundamental Christianity teaches, He would have been in the grave only one night and one day, and this would make Jesus a liar! Jesus said He would be there Three Days and Three Nights. This proves that Jesus was Crucified on Wednesday and was put in the tomb before sunset that day.

He remained dead Wednesday night, Thursday, Thursday night, Friday, Friday night, and Saturday. He was resurrected soon after sunset Saturday, as explained in the above Scriptures.

And, "For as Jonas was three days and nights in the whales belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." (Matt. 12:40). Not one day, not one and one half days, not two or two and one half days but three full days and three full nights.


Haz.
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#12
rstrats

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HAZARD,

re: "Jesus died on Wednesday."


I probably should have addressed the OP to those who think He died on the 6th day.
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#13
rstrats

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Brother Paul,

re: "Now then in regard to the OP...no there is no example from scripture where the three days and three nights idiom does NOT mean it includes at least a part of all three days..."


Actually, I'm asking about at least a part of each specified day and at least a part of each specified night, and not just about at least a part of each one of the specified number of calendar days. At any rate, if there is no example, then the use of Matthew 12:40 as an idiom that doesn't have to include a third night, has to be excluded from the 6th day crucifixion proponents' apologetic. Also, doesn't it seem a bit odd that if the Messiah knew He would only be in the tomb for 2 nights that He would say that it would be for 3 nights?

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#14
Qnts2

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I have not read every post, so my comments may or may not be a repeat of something already discussed.

First, it is basic Jewish calculation of days to say any part of a day is counted as the entire day.

For example, a baby born just 10 minutes before sunset is considered 1 day old at sunset. This effects the actual timing of the 8th day circumcision.

For an additional consideration which many tend to miss in this discussion. Per Jewish tradition, a corpse would be buried as quickly as possible. Traditionally, the day after death. Given this tradition, the only reason for a delay in preparing the body would be Sabbaths.

Jesus rose on 'Sunday' so Saturday would have been a Sabbath and the women could not prepare the body. If Jesus died on Friday and the rush was the 7th day Sabbath, that would resolve this dilemma

If Jesus died on Thursday, and Friday was the Passover Sabbath, and Saturday the seventh day sabbath, then the body preparation timing is solved.

If Jesus died on Wednesday, and Thursday was the Passover Sabbath, Friday would not be a Sabbath, and the women would have gone to prepare the body on Friday. So, we can eliminate Wednesday. That leaves us with Thursday or Friday.
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#15
rstrats

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Qnts2,

re: "First, it is basic Jewish calculation of days to say any part of a day is counted as the entire day."

Agreed. But do you know of any writing from the first century or before that shows the use of a phrase stating a specific number of days as well as a specific number of nights that absolutely doesn’t include at least a part of each one of the specific number of days and at least a part of each one of the specific number of nights?

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#16
Qnts2

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Qnts2,

re: "First, it is basic Jewish calculation of days to say any part of a day is counted as the entire day."

Agreed. But do you know of any writing from the first century or before that shows the use of a phrase stating a specific number of days as well as a specific number of nights that absolutely doesn’t include at least a part of each one of the specific number of days and at least a part of each one of the specific number of nights?


Let me start with another verse.

1 Cor 15:4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

This is an important verse to define the timing. Knowing that a day begins at sunset, and any part of a day would be equal to a count of 1 day, I think we need to reconcile some things.

If Jesus died before sunset on Thursday, Thurday is counted as day 1.
Friday, is day 2.
Saturday would be day three but Jesus rose on Sunday. So get Sunday as the third day, Jesus had to have been crucified on Friday.

Now we go to three days and three nights. I haven't yet found an example of that exact wording, except in the book of Esther but even that is a little different.
What is most unusual is that Esther says three nights and days, which is the expected order of counting. Another possibility has to do with the Priests and the time when sacrifices must be consumed. Priests were to eat portions from the sacrifices, but there was a time limit when their portion must be eaten. This is counted from day to night to day etc. But I am not sure we can justify using that unusual count as it does not fit the scenario. Especially in light of 1 Cor 15:4.

What it comes down to, is we can not take 3 days and 3 nights literally while 1 Cor 15:4 also holds literally true. 3 days and 3 nights would have a resurrection on the 4th day, not the 3rd. To me, it makes more sense to take the sign of Noah as a pointer, or allegorical as it is not a proper count of days and accept 1 Cor 15:4 as literal. That would put the crucifixion on a Friday.
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#17
wisewords

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I'm not sure if this would be going off topic, but I've always been interested in asking this question:

If Jesus was killed and dead for three days and three nights, who was running the universe? And who buried him and where? And if Jesus is capable of dying, does that make death, or the angel of death, stronger than him?
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#18
gdemoss

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I'm not sure if this would be going off topic, but I've always been interested in asking this question:

If Jesus was killed and dead for three days and three nights, who was running the universe? And who buried him and where? And if Jesus is capable of dying, does that make death, or the angel of death, stronger than him?


These are great questions but derail the original intent of the thread so I won't touch them here.
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#19
wisewords

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I'm not sure if this would be going off topic, but I've always been interested in asking this question:

If Jesus was killed and dead for three days and three nights, who was running the universe? And who buried him and where? And if Jesus is capable of dying, does that make death, or the angel of death, stronger than him?


These are great questions but derail the original intent of the thread so I won't touch them here.


I thought it would be so, but due to my newness on this forum I'm not allowed to make new topics yet. It would be great if a knowledgeable scholar/student would make a new open topic for questions and answers whereby anyone may come and ask a question, and be replied to.
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#20
gdemoss

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I'm not sure if this would be going off topic, but I've always been interested in asking this question:

If Jesus was killed and dead for three days and three nights, who was running the universe? And who buried him and where? And if Jesus is capable of dying, does that make death, or the angel of death, stronger than him?


These are great questions but derail the original intent of the thread so I won't touch them here.


I thought it would be so, but due to my newness on this forum I'm not allowed to make new topics yet. It would be great if a knowledgeable scholar/student would make a new open topic for questions and answers whereby anyone may come and ask a question, and be replied to.


Continue to participate in open threads and you will be able to begin your own topics shortly.
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