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Three Days and Three Nights

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#1
rstrats

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Whenever the three days and three nights of Matthew 12:40 is brought up in a "discussion" with 6th day crucifixion folks, they frequently argue that it is a Jewish idiom for counting any part of a day as a whole day. I wonder if anyone has documentation that shows that the phrase "x" days and "x"nights was ever used in the first century or before when it absolutely didn’t include at least parts of the "x" days and at least parts of the "x" nights?

#2
FresnoJoe

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Documentation Documentation

And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Genesis 1:31

Translation Translation Translation

And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King! John 9:14

Sometimes Great Sometimes Not So Great

And when he had apprehended him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people. Acts 12:4

However The Whole Point Is

Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him. As he spake these words, many believed on him.

Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. John 8:28-32

Will YOU Believe

But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Romans 10:8-9

And Be Saved?

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.Romans 10:10

~

Love, Joe

#3
rstrats

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FresnoJoe,

re: "Documentation Documentation "
 
Yes, documentation; do you have the documentation requested in the OP?

Edited by rstrats, 10 November 2012 - 08:43 PM.


#4
shiloh357

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Whenever the three days and three nights of Matthew 12:40 is brought up in a "discussion" with 6th day crucifixion folks, they frequently argue that it is a Jewish idiom for counting any part of a day as a whole day. I wonder if anyone has documentation that shows that the phrase "x" days and "x"nights was ever used in the first century or before when it absolutely didn’t include at least parts of the "x" days and at least parts of the "x" nights?

IN ancient Israel a baby was considered a full year old at birth. The nine months inside the womb was considered a whole year. They also counted any part of a year that a king reigned as a whole year, even if it only for a day or two. It is part of tradition, but exactly where it is written it is hard to say.

#5
FresnoJoe

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FresnoJoe,

re: "Documentation Documentation "
 
Yes, documentation; do have the documentation requested in the OP?


Yeap~!

~

Documentation Documentation

And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Genesis 1:31

Translation Translation Translation

And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King! John 9:14

Sometimes Great Sometimes Not So Great

And when he had apprehended him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people. Acts 12:4

However The Whole Point Is

Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him. As he spake these words, many believed on him.

Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. John 8:28-32

Will YOU Believe

But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Romans 10:8-9

And Be Saved?

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.Romans 10:10

~

Love, Joe

#6
rstrats

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FresnoJoe,

Your post has absolutely nothing to do with the OP. Why do you do that?

#7
Jayyycuuup

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It is a pride thing and strokes his ego.


That is not a very nice thing to say.

#8
enoob57

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It is a pride thing and strokes his ego.

You can learn a lot from ones name....

#9
Bob Carabbio

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"Whenever the three days and three nights of Matthew 12:40 is brought up in a "discussion" with 6th day crucifixion folks, they frequently argue that it is a Jewish idiom for counting any part of a day as a whole day."

It's an attempt to rationalize how "Good Friday to Easter Sunday" is "3 days and three nights". Mat 27:63 gives the Roman concern -

"Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again. Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first."

The ISSUE is, of course,is that Jesus wasn't crucified on Friday at all, but on Wednesday in synchronism with the Spring Feasts, and interred after sundown on Wednesday night (Thursday to the Jewish commuinity).
SO you have three days and three nights ending at sundown Saturday, with the ressurection occurring Between Saturday evening/Sunday morning (by our reckoning).

Edited by Bob Carabbio, 10 December 2012 - 11:57 PM.


#10
FresnoJoe

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Welcome~!

~


"Whenever the three days and three nights of Matthew 12:40 is brought up in a "discussion" with 6th day crucifixion folks, they frequently argue that it is a Jewish idiom for counting any part of a day as a whole day."

It's an attempt to rationalize how "Good Friday to Easter Sunday" is "3 days and three nights". Mat 27:63 gives the Roman concern -

"Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again. Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first."

The ISSUE is, of course,is that Jesus wasn't crucified on Friday at all, but on Wednesday in synchronism with the Spring Feasts, and interred after sundown on Wednesday night (Thursday to the Jewish commuinity).
SO you have three days and three nights ending at sundown Saturday, with the ressurection occurring Between Saturday evening/Sunday morning (by our reckoning).


Amen~!

#11
FresnoJoe

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It is a pride thing and strokes his ego.


Thank You Beloved

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And I Am So

Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
2 Timothy 4:2-4

Blessed

So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do. Luke 17:10

You See

Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever. Psalms 119:160

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Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING


The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:
The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:
The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them.
Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Your Brother Joe

#12
Jayyycuuup

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It is a pride thing and strokes his ego.


Something to consider, (and sorry for pulling away from your OP rstrats) is that scripture can do a lot more then the words of man, for all scripture is breathed out by God and is useful for correction! It is a two edged sword; separating the bone from the marrow !

#13
enoob57

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"Whenever the three days and three nights of Matthew 12:40 is brought up in a "discussion" with 6th day crucifixion folks, they frequently argue that it is a Jewish idiom for counting any part of a day as a whole day."

It's an attempt to rationalize how "Good Friday to Easter Sunday" is "3 days and three nights". Mat 27:63 gives the Roman concern -

"Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again. Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first."

The ISSUE is, of course,is that Jesus wasn't crucified on Friday at all, but on Wednesday in synchronism with the Spring Feasts, and interred after sundown on Wednesday night (Thursday to the Jewish commuinity).
SO you have three days and three nights ending at sundown Saturday, with the ressurection occurring Between Saturday evening/Sunday morning (by our reckoning).

Hi Bob! I remember you from CARM... Welcome!

#14
JohnDB

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What throws the accounts off is the western interpretation of "early on the first day of the week." While it was still dark... The westerner thinks "ah, Sunday morning before sunrise." The Jewish mind says "just after sunset Saturday."

Remember also, Jesus was not witnessed rising from the dead by humans but by the two angels in the tomb. He was discovered already raised early on the first day of the week.

So...

Friday after 3pm to sunset Saturday... 27 hours (one day and three hours)

I am of the camp that believes the Faith was hijacked by sun worshipers (Romans) which is why SUNday is preeminent when in this Sabbath Age / dispensation if you will, every day is shabbat and we who are all called to be priests before God (that's all believers, btw) are workers on the sabbath...

Matthew 12:5 (NIV)
Or haven’t you read in the Law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple desecrate the day and yet are innocent?

1 Corinthians 3:16 (NIV)
16 Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit lives in you?

1 Peter 2:5 (NIV)
5 you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

Revelation 1:6 / 5:10 etc.

In the camp I am among, Wednesday (which began on Tuesday evening) as Jesus kept the Galilean Passover Seder on the eve 14 Nisan and later arrested tried and crucified Wednesday. That puts his body in the grave precisely 3 days and 3 nights (or more accurately 3 nights and 3 days)... rising between the evenings on 17 Nisan the third day.

#15
rstrats

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JohnDB,

re: "In the camp I am among, Wednesday (which began on Tuesday evening) as Jesus kept the Galilean Passover Seder on the eve 14 Nisan and later arrested tried and crucified Wednesday."

How do you reconcile a 4th day of the week crucifixion with Luke 24:21 which indicates that the crucifixion could not have occurred any sooner than the 5th day of the week?

#16
JohnDB

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JohnDB,

re: "In the camp I am among, Wednesday (which began on Tuesday evening) as Jesus kept the Galilean Passover Seder on the eve 14 Nisan and later arrested tried and crucified Wednesday."

How do you reconcile a 4th day of the week crucifixion with Luke 24:21 which indicates that the crucifixion could not have occurred any sooner than the 5th day of the week?



That is a good question.

I will investigate.

#17
JohnDB

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From all I see the scriptures appear to indicate the third day was the first day of the week. That being the case I must always defer to the holy scriptures and thus my Wednesday crucifixion hypothesis is proven false by them. It must have been Thursday and the Mathew 12:39-40 text did not mean a literal 72 hour time frame but a 60 hour time frame. Three nights and two days and part of a third day.

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#18
Mcgyver

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I personally hold to a Friday crucifixion, for I think (and this is my opinion) that where we run into problems is when we try to fit 21st Century time reckoning (72 complete hours) into 1st Century Jewish context.

I believe that we run into more serious difficulties textually, culturally, and historically if we try to move Christ's crucifixion back to Wed. or Thurs., than if we accept a Friday crucifixion.

I'd like to present the following thoughts for comment, If I may.

We all agree (I think) that the Jewish day starts at around 6:00 PM the previous day (literally when the first bright star can be observed in the evening sky. I'll use 6:00 PM as a point of reference rather than a firm time, if I may). When a Jew got up Thursday morning for example...got home from work and put his feet up on the couch...when evening came it was now Friday evening (the start of the new day) and not Thursday evening; as we would reckon.

First is the textual difficulty arising from both the Greek wording, and consistent usage in both the New Testament and the Old Testament of the idiomatic phrase "The third day".

The scripture records the "preparation day" in Matt 27:62, Mark 15:42, Luke 23:54, and John 19:14, 19:31-32. The Greek word used for "preparation day" is paraskeue. Without exception both Biblically and in secular writings contemporary to the time, paraskeue always means the preparation day prior to a Saturday Sabbath (i.e. Friday. c.f. Exodus 16:5)...it is never used in connection with any of the other Sabbath days.

An example of paraskeue as the preparation day before a Saturday Sabbath may also be seen in Josephus Antiquities book 16, Chapter 6 where he writes (in reference to collection being sent to Jerusalem): and that they be not obliged to go before any judge on the sabbath day, nor on the day of the preparation to it, after the ninth hour.

So obviously, I see a problem with crucifixion on any day other than Friday based on the usage of Greek.

The other problem that I see is with a full 72 hour time reckoning used in conjunction with the phrase "On the third day".

I've always seen the bible as it's own best commentary, so I'd like to bring up a couple of OT references to "the third day" (as the OT usage is not such a "hot button").

In 1 Kings 12:1-12 It says: So he said to them, “Depart for three days, then come back to me.” And the people departed. Then in verse 12: So Jeroboam and all the people came to Rehoboam the third day, as the king had directed, saying, “Come back to me the third day.”

If a full 72 hours had been meant, then the people would have returned the fourth day, and not the third. This story is repeated in 2 Chronicles 10:5-12

In Esther 4:16-5:1 Esther tells the people: and fast for me; neither eat nor drink for three days, night or day. My maids and I will fast likewise.
And in 5:1 we see: Now it happened on the third day that Esther put on her royal robes and stood in the inner court of the king’s palace...

Again, I would submit that if a full 72 hours had been meant, then it would have been the fourth day and not the third day that Esther went to the king.

I think that this serves to illustrate both the inclusive reckoning of time, as well as the meaning of "the third day". My assertion is that if we use a consistent method of biblical interpretation, then there is no reason to suppose that this method of Jewish reckoning of time and use of idiom changed in the time of Christ.

Finally, a Friday crucifixion is supported by one of the oldest secular texts available to us. Justin Martyr in his first apology circa 150 writes:

But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn <e.g. Friday>; and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.

So reckoning inclusively, Jesus is crucified on Friday before sunset which (by Jewish reckoning) is one day and one night. He is in the tomb from sunset Friday (start of the Saturday Sabbath) to sunset Saturday...two days and two nights, is resurrected before sunrise Sunday...three days and three nights even though daylight has yet to dawn (once again by Jewish reckoning which counts any part of the day as the whole of the day).

I just think that everything when taken together weighs heavily in favor of a Friday crucifixion. Otherwise, if a full 72 hours was meant, He would have been raised the fourth day and not the third.

Anyway...my opinion FWIW :mgcheerful:

Edited by Mcgyver, 11 January 2013 - 12:18 PM.


#19
Mcgyver

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Whenever the three days and three nights of Matthew 12:40 is brought up in a "discussion" with 6th day crucifixion folks, they frequently argue that it is a Jewish idiom for counting any part of a day as a whole day. I wonder if anyone has documentation that shows that the phrase "x" days and "x"nights was ever used in the first century or before when it absolutely didn’t include at least parts of the "x" days and at least parts of the "x" nights?


No, just the opposite.

Rabbi Eleazar ben Azariah, a contemporary of Gamaliel in the 1st Century "codified" (if you will) that which had always been customary. He wrote: "A day and a night are an Onah (a portion of time) and the portion of an Onah is as the whole of it" (J.Talmud, Shabbath 9.3 and b.Talmud, Pesachim 4)

Edited by Mcgyver, 11 January 2013 - 12:46 PM.


#20
sheya joie

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I too hold that the crucifixtion was on Wednesday. John says this:

Joh_19:31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.


But what does he mean when he says 'for that sabbath day was an high day'?

Let's look at the Law of Moses:

Lev 23:3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.
Lev 23:4 These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.
Lev 23:5 In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD'S passover.
Lev 23:6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.
Lev 23:7 In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.
Lev 23:8 But ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD seven days: in the seventh day is an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.


So every week the Sabbath or seventh day (Saturday) was 'an holy convocation,' a day on which no work was to be done. Likewise, the first and seventh days of the Feast of Unleavened Bread were to be days of holy convocation on which no work was to be done. Notice that the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread was the fifteenth day of the first month, the day after the Passover. We tend to think of the entire eight day period as Passover, but the first day, the fourteenth, is Passover itself, and the remaining seven days are the Feast of Unleavened Bread.

So, since Jesus was crucified on the day of Passover, the following day was the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread and therefore a day of holy convocation. This is what I believe John meant by 'for that sabbath day was an high day.' It wasn't the weekly Saturday, but the first of two special sabbath days of the Feast of Unleavened Bread.

Now look at this:

Luk 23:50 And, behold, there was a man named Joseph, a counsellor; and he was a good man, and a just:
Luk 23:51 (The same had not consented to the counsel and deed of them;) he was of Arimathaea, a city of the Jews: who also himself waited for the kingdom of God.
Luk 23:52 This man went unto Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus.
Luk 23:53 And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid.
Luk 23:54 And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on.
Luk 23:55 And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid.
Luk 23:56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.


So here we have the burial, and the women preparing the spices and ointments, after which the women rested for the sabbath day. (Which leaves me wondering how they were able to prepare the spices that quickly, since the burial was already in haste and they would have to quit work once it was sunset.)

But here:

Mar 16:1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.
Mar 16:2 And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.


In Luke's account, the women prepare the spices, then rest for the sabbath. But Mark seems to have them buying the spices after the sabbath. How can this be -- unless there were two Sabbaths?

And so this is how I see it, reconciling the various passages I quoted above. The crucifixion happened on Wednesday, with the following day (Thursday) being the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread and therefore a day of holy convocation. And so the women rested on Thursday for the special Sabbath, then bought and prepared the spices on Friday, rested again on Saturday for the regular weekly Sabbath, and finally came to anoint the body after Saturday was over, finding that after three nights and three days, His body was gone because He had been resurrected.




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