Jump to content

christian forums

Worthy Christian Forums - Christian Forums

Welcome to Worthy Christian Forums
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Photo

Why was/is sin permitted?

* * * * * 1 votes by God from the beginning

This topic has been archived. This means that you cannot reply to this topic.
12 replies to this topic

#1
Remnantrob

Remnantrob

    Veteran Member

  • Senior Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 884 posts

Hi friends,

 

 I recently read a chapter in one of my books(Patriarch's and prophets) with a similar topic.  It has helped to deepen my understanding of why God permitted sin as far back as when Lucifer did so in heaven(as per my beliefs).  I was curious as to what other protestant denoms. believe concerning why God has allowed sin to exist past Satan and continue until now.  Thanks for your answers in advance. :mgbowtie:



#2
other one

other one

    Royal Member

  • Royal Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 23,807 posts

I'm not sure we will know the answer to that until we understand whatever it is that we will be doing after Satan and the dark ones have been done away with...   I know that we will judge the angels, but past that I think I have read that we can't really even conceive our future.

 

My guess is that God wants/needs entities to carry out whatever it is that we will be doing that are tried and tested to be trusted in those positions.   I would emphasize that it is just my guess.



#3
Openly Curious

Openly Curious

    Royal Member

  • Royal Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,228 posts

Hi friends,

 

 I recently read a chapter in one of my books(Patriarch's and prophets) with a similar topic.  It has helped to deepen my understanding of why God permitted sin as far back as when Lucifer did so in heaven(as per my beliefs).  I was curious as to what other protestant denoms. believe concerning why God has allowed sin to exist past Satan and continue until now.  Thanks for your answers in advance. :mgbowtie:

 

My understanding is that God has given each person an individual WILL and power to choose between good (righteous living) and evil (unrighteous living).  From my personal walk with the Lord I have learned that God will not violate my will but he will allow me to choose between right and wrong.   He will chastise and correct me because he loves me and doesn't want any harm to come to me as a father loves his children.   Unlike Satan who tricks and enslaves to sin from the beginning in the garden.  God sets us free from the prison and bondage of sin through Christ work on the cross.  Thus making us a new creature in Christ Jesus giving us back and restoring the freedom to choose whom we want to serve on a daily basis.  God will not make or enslave us to righteous living unlike the serpent who enslaved the whole human race to unrighteousness causing all to be born into the bondage of sin as death is the wages of sin.  But as sin started to abound or grow in this world from the beginning (the first Adam who was earthly).  So it is also as souls are saved through faith, grace too abounds and strarted to grow in this world through Christ Jesus(second Adam heavenly). 



#4
Remnantrob

Remnantrob

    Veteran Member

  • Senior Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 884 posts

 

Hi friends,

 

 I recently read a chapter in one of my books(Patriarch's and prophets) with a similar topic.  It has helped to deepen my understanding of why God permitted sin as far back as when Lucifer did so in heaven(as per my beliefs).  I was curious as to what other protestant denoms. believe concerning why God has allowed sin to exist past Satan and continue until now.  Thanks for your answers in advance. :mgbowtie:

 

My understanding is that God has given each person an individual WILL and power to choose between good (righteous living) and evil (unrighteous living).  From my personal walk with the Lord I have learned that God will not violate my will but he will allow me to choose between right and wrong.   He will chastise and correct me because he loves me and doesn't want any harm to come to me as a father loves his children.   Unlike Satan who tricks and enslaves to sin from the beginning in the garden.  God sets us free from the prison and bondage of sin through Christ work on the cross.  Thus making us a new creature in Christ Jesus giving us back and restoring the freedom to choose whom we want to serve on a daily basis.  God will not make or enslave us to righteous living unlike the serpent who enslaved the whole human race to unrighteousness causing all to be born into the bondage of sin as death is the wages of sin.  But as sin started to abound or grow in this world from the beginning (the first Adam who was earthly).  So it is also as souls are saved through faith, grace too abounds and strarted to grow in this world through Christ Jesus(second Adam heavenly). 

 

 

 

So your answer is that the reason God permits sin is because he gave us free will?  How do you explain how a sinless being could sin by choice and when sin is erradicated that there is no potential for sin to exist again since that sinless person will still have free will.  Thanks



#5
Sevenseas

Sevenseas

    Royal Member

  • Royal Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,924 posts

 

 

Hi friends,

 

 I recently read a chapter in one of my books(Patriarch's and prophets) with a similar topic.  It has helped to deepen my understanding of why God permitted sin as far back as when Lucifer did so in heaven(as per my beliefs).  I was curious as to what other protestant denoms. believe concerning why God has allowed sin to exist past Satan and continue until now.  Thanks for your answers in advance. :mgbowtie:

 

My understanding is that God has given each person an individual WILL and power to choose between good (righteous living) and evil (unrighteous living).  From my personal walk with the Lord I have learned that God will not violate my will but he will allow me to choose between right and wrong.   He will chastise and correct me because he loves me and doesn't want any harm to come to me as a father loves his children.   Unlike Satan who tricks and enslaves to sin from the beginning in the garden.  God sets us free from the prison and bondage of sin through Christ work on the cross.  Thus making us a new creature in Christ Jesus giving us back and restoring the freedom to choose whom we want to serve on a daily basis.  God will not make or enslave us to righteous living unlike the serpent who enslaved the whole human race to unrighteousness causing all to be born into the bondage of sin as death is the wages of sin.  But as sin started to abound or grow in this world from the beginning (the first Adam who was earthly).  So it is also as souls are saved through faith, grace too abounds and strarted to grow in this world through Christ Jesus(second Adam heavenly). 

 

 

 

So your answer is that the reason God permits sin is because he gave us free will?  How do you explain how a sinless being could sin by choice and when sin is erradicated that there is no potential for sin to exist again since that sinless person will still have free will.  Thanks

 

 

 

I believe your premise is wrong.  God does not 'permit' sin.  Where do you read in scripture that God permits sin?

 

Second, which 'sinless' being are you referring to?  

 

Three, which denom (as you put it) do you ascribe to

 

and finally four, if person b's denom does not agree with person a's denom or c'd or d's.....how does that affect what you believe or does it?

 

oh sorry...here's five......is your position according to your denomination or is it centered in Christ and truth according to the Bible?

 

questions...questions



#6
Remnantrob

Remnantrob

    Veteran Member

  • Senior Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 884 posts

 

 

 

Hi friends,

 

 I recently read a chapter in one of my books(Patriarch's and prophets) with a similar topic.  It has helped to deepen my understanding of why God permitted sin as far back as when Lucifer did so in heaven(as per my beliefs).  I was curious as to what other protestant denoms. believe concerning why God has allowed sin to exist past Satan and continue until now.  Thanks for your answers in advance. :mgbowtie:

 

My understanding is that God has given each person an individual WILL and power to choose between good (righteous living) and evil (unrighteous living).  From my personal walk with the Lord I have learned that God will not violate my will but he will allow me to choose between right and wrong.   He will chastise and correct me because he loves me and doesn't want any harm to come to me as a father loves his children.   Unlike Satan who tricks and enslaves to sin from the beginning in the garden.  God sets us free from the prison and bondage of sin through Christ work on the cross.  Thus making us a new creature in Christ Jesus giving us back and restoring the freedom to choose whom we want to serve on a daily basis.  God will not make or enslave us to righteous living unlike the serpent who enslaved the whole human race to unrighteousness causing all to be born into the bondage of sin as death is the wages of sin.  But as sin started to abound or grow in this world from the beginning (the first Adam who was earthly).  So it is also as souls are saved through faith, grace too abounds and strarted to grow in this world through Christ Jesus(second Adam heavenly). 

 

 

 

So your answer is that the reason God permits sin is because he gave us free will?  How do you explain how a sinless being could sin by choice and when sin is erradicated that there is no potential for sin to exist again since that sinless person will still have free will.  Thanks

 

 

 

I believe your premise is wrong.  God does not 'permit' sin.  Where do you read in scripture that God permits sin?

 

Second, which 'sinless' being are you referring to?  

 

Three, which denom (as you put it) do you ascribe to

 

and finally four, if person b's denom does not agree with person a's denom or c'd or d's.....how does that affect what you believe or does it?

 

oh sorry...here's five......is your position according to your denomination or is it centered in Christ and truth according to the Bible?

 

questions...questions

 

 

Hi Sevenseas,

 

I assumed that by my posts most members knew that I am a Seventh day Adventist.  My apologies because I thought mentioning one of our books would be enough evidence.

 

I.  It's ok if you disagree with my premise. I believe God permits/allows sin to continue to exist because when we wake up and look into a mirror guess what we're looking at?  A sinner and hopefully saved by grace. For  a bible texts just consider Romans 3:23 and then look at Habakkuk 1:13 you can see that even though sin exists and God does not look at them because he is too holy sin still goes on.  Read the Creation account in Gen. 1 up until the fall in Gen. 3.  Not sure if you want a "thus saith the Lord I wilt permiteth sin" but that's the best I can do for now.

 

II. Again, my apologies for not being clearer.  It can pertain to Adam if you want because he was sinless until he....sinned.  When Christ resurrects the dead and transforms our bodies he will be sinless again.  What's to say sin won't happen again because we will still have free will.  (I know the affliction will not arise a 2nd time text Nah. 1:9) but what else can you rely on?(that came out wrong because I know that you stand on the word/promises of God).  But any other information will be welcomed seeing that it happened before.  Also Lucifer was sinless and chose to sin so why is he still alive?

 

III.  SDA

 

IV.  What you believe does not change what I believe, unless it makes make question my own belief.  I'm just interested because most adventist don't interact with other protestants to know what they believe and then speak like they know.  I don't want to come off as if I know precisely what your stance is on a certain topic without googling it.

 

V.  I believe so, but looking at archived threads and speaking with some people would make you think otherwise because we're just a cult that are lost.  I just want information.  Thanks



#7
Sevenseas

Sevenseas

    Royal Member

  • Royal Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,924 posts

Well hi and no I did not know you were a 7th day Adventist...but I have known at least one other...in person   :emot-nod: I was off for awhile, so I prob missed the intros and I'm not familiar with yr publications

 

 

1.

 

I.  It's ok if you disagree with my premise. I believe God permits/allows sin to continue to exist because when we wake up and look into a mirror guess what we're looking at?  A sinner and hopefully saved by grace. For  a bible texts just consider Romans 3:23 and then look at Habakkuk 1:13 you can see that even though sin exists and God does not look at them because he is too holy sin still goes on.  Read the Creation account in Gen. 1 up until the fall in Gen. 3.  Not sure if you want a "thus saith the Lord I wilt permiteth sin" but that's the best I can do for now.

 

 

I understand what you are saying here, but that is not the whole picture.  I absolutely agree that we are all sinners and capable of sinning, but, and if you can kind of compartmentalize this one, the Bible 

does not leave us there at salvation.  What do we do with verses that refer to believes as saints rather than sinners?

 

 

The word translated “saint” in the New Testament, hagios, means literally “sacred, physically pure; morally blameless or religious; ceremonially consecrated; a holy one.” In the context of New Testament passages, saints are those who belong to the body of Christ, saved by grace through faith . In other words, “saint” is another word for a Christian, a true believer in the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

 

I'm not a Greek scholar by any means, but in reference to the word saint, it is used 229 times in the Greek NT and 60 times in KJV.  This word does not refer to people who have died and gone to

be with the Lord, but to those alive and kicking.  Paul, in addressing his letters to the various churches and believers, used the word saint to describe the recipients of his letters as follows:

 

 

Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, To the church of God which is at Corinth with all the saints who are throughout Achaia:  II Cor 1:1

 

There are dozens more examples, most being found at the beginning of the NT epistles...Romans, Colossians, Ephesians and so on.

 

He does not write to sinners who are saved by grace....but develops the concept both in his salutation and in the contents of his letters, that we are saints...no longer sinners, for example:

 

 

To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be his holy people, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ--their Lord and ours:

I Corinthians 6:11

 

We need to study the NT, with a good foundation in the OT, to understatnd that God does not permit sin.  Sin exists and God did not create it nor does he permit it.  Sin, cannot enter His presence.

 

Jesus had to die for our sins so that we can come into God's presence as we are cleansed and sanctified by his blood.  For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.  Hebrews 10:4

 

You did mention Romans, but study Hebrews as well to understand that we have the righteousness of Christ and that is how God views us.  We would never be able to approach Him if He simply

tolerated, winked at or permitted sin.  Sin causes separation from God. 

 

Does that mean we are sinless or that we never sin again?  No.  

 

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.  I John 1:7-9

 

I think point 1 is enough for now regarding a discussion



#8
Remnantrob

Remnantrob

    Veteran Member

  • Senior Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 884 posts

Well hi and no I did not know you were a 7th day Adventist...but I have known at least one other...in person   :emot-nod: I was off for awhile, so I prob missed the intros and I'm not familiar with yr publications

 

 

1.

 

I.  It's ok if you disagree with my premise. I believe God permits/allows sin to continue to exist because when we wake up and look into a mirror guess what we're looking at?  A sinner and hopefully saved by grace. For  a bible texts just consider Romans 3:23 and then look at Habakkuk 1:13 you can see that even though sin exists and God does not look at them because he is too holy sin still goes on.  Read the Creation account in Gen. 1 up until the fall in Gen. 3.  Not sure if you want a "thus saith the Lord I wilt permiteth sin" but that's the best I can do for now.

 

 

I understand what you are saying here, but that is not the whole picture.  I absolutely agree that we are all sinners and capable of sinning, but, and if you can kind of compartmentalize this one, the Bible 

does not leave us there at salvation.  What do we do with verses that refer to believes as saints rather than sinners?

 

 

The word translated “saint” in the New Testament, hagios, means literally “sacred, physically pure; morally blameless or religious; ceremonially consecrated; a holy one.” In the context of New Testament passages, saints are those who belong to the body of Christ, saved by grace through faith . In other words, “saint” is another word for a Christian, a true believer in the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

 

I'm not a Greek scholar by any means, but in reference to the word saint, it is used 229 times in the Greek NT and 60 times in KJV.  This word does not refer to people who have died and gone to

be with the Lord, but to those alive and kicking.  Paul, in addressing his letters to the various churches and believers, used the word saint to describe the recipients of his letters as follows:

 

 

Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, To the church of God which is at Corinth with all the saints who are throughout Achaia:  II Cor 1:1

 

There are dozens more examples, most being found at the beginning of the NT epistles...Romans, Colossians, Ephesians and so on.

 

He does not write to sinners who are saved by grace....but develops the concept both in his salutation and in the contents of his letters, that we are saints...no longer sinners, for example:

 

 

To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be his holy people, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ--their Lord and ours:

I Corinthians 6:11

 

We need to study the NT, with a good foundation in the OT, to understatnd that God does not permit sin.  Sin exists and God did not create it nor does he permit it.  Sin, cannot enter His presence.

 

Jesus had to die for our sins so that we can come into God's presence as we are cleansed and sanctified by his blood.  For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.  Hebrews 10:4

 

You did mention Romans, but study Hebrews as well to understand that we have the righteousness of Christ and that is how God views us.  We would never be able to approach Him if He simply

tolerated, winked at or permitted sin.  Sin causes separation from God. 

 

Does that mean we are sinless or that we never sin again?  No.  

 

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.  I John 1:7-9

 

I think point 1 is enough for now regarding a discussion

Thanks Sevenseas.  I had met you when I first started at WB about 8 years back but I don't remember what I wore yesterday so I get it....lol  I'll try to answer you a little later tonight but I agree with most of what you are saying.  I just wanted people to state why wasn't sin eradicated when i began with Lucifer according to what you've learned over the years.



#9
Sevenseas

Sevenseas

    Royal Member

  • Royal Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,924 posts

I've only been a member since Feb/12...I was a member at Christianity.com before the forums migrated to fb...I think most people quit at that point...so whoever you are thinking of, t'aint me

 

This is the only forum in which I used the name Sevenseas 

 

I'm pretty sure you wore clothes yesterday if that helps... :biggrin2:



#10
Sevenseas

Sevenseas

    Royal Member

  • Royal Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,924 posts

was it something I said?   :emot-rolleyes:  :emot-rolleyes:



#11
clark thompson

clark thompson

    Junior Member

  • Junior Member
  • PipPip
  • 124 posts

As long as we have sin we can see our need For Christ.



#12
Guest_DRS81_*

Guest_DRS81_*
  • Guests

I was curious as to what other protestant denoms. believe concerning why God has allowed sin to exist past Satan and continue until now.

 

Because God wants us to choose him. Without sin, there is no choice. A wise man chooses God in his filth.



#13
ARose88

ARose88
  • Members
  • 21 posts

The answer is simply free will. If we did not have the ability to make our own choices, then it would be impossible to love God or to disobey him (we would just be doing whatever God pre-programmed us to do). What pleasure would God have from someone's obedience if that obedience was not their choice? Also, would it really be love if we had no choice but to love God?






Worthy Christian Forums - Christian Message Boards - 1999-2014 part of the Worthy Network