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Hope for non-believers Revelation 20:12-13

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#1
OakWood

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What's the point of judging somebody according to what they have done if they are destined for damnation anyway?



#2
chloe_fantastic

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Revelation 20:12, 13 NASB

And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.

 

Just for everyone's convenience......



#3
Qnts2

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Talking to many people, I have found people in general tend to compare themselves to others. One will say, I am much better then those people or that person. I have done all of these good things, so I am a good person.  

 

When a person who has not accepted Jesus stands before God, they come from a view, that they are basically a good person. Because they have done some good, God should accept them, especially looking at the lives of others which they are 'better' then. I think when God pulls out the book of deeds, it will become very clear how much of a sinner each person has been. I think it will end the talk of having been a good person compared to others. (I have heard that even the worst of offenders in prison have somethings they would never do, which makes them better then the absolute worst.)



#4
OakWood

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Talking to many people, I have found people in general tend to compare themselves to others. One will say, I am much better then those people or that person. I have done all of these good things, so I am a good person.  

 

When a person who has not accepted Jesus stands before God, they come from a view, that they are basically a good person. Because they have done some good, God should accept them, especially looking at the lives of others which they are 'better' then. I think when God pulls out the book of deeds, it will become very clear how much of a sinner each person has been. I think it will end the talk of having been a good person compared to others. (I have heard that even the worst of offenders in prison have somethings they would never do, which makes them better then the absolute worst.)

 

I take your point and I'm not saying that their judgement will be a picnic for them, but does this suggest to you that they have a chance of salvation, no matter how small?



#5
Qnts2

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Talking to many people, I have found people in general tend to compare themselves to others. One will say, I am much better then those people or that person. I have done all of these good things, so I am a good person.  

 

When a person who has not accepted Jesus stands before God, they come from a view, that they are basically a good person. Because they have done some good, God should accept them, especially looking at the lives of others which they are 'better' then. I think when God pulls out the book of deeds, it will become very clear how much of a sinner each person has been. I think it will end the talk of having been a good person compared to others. (I have heard that even the worst of offenders in prison have somethings they would never do, which makes them better then the absolute worst.)

 

I take your point and I'm not saying that their judgement will be a picnic for them, but does this suggest to you that they have a chance of salvation, no matter how small?

 

 

No, I do not believe a person who has died has a second chance.  

 

I guess the way I see it, in the U.S. when a person is found guilty and sentenced with death, they are often in prison for many years. If the movies are the least bit accurate, at the time of their execution, their crimes (what they were found guilty of) are read to identify the reason for the execution and then the execution is performed in accordance with the law. In the book of deeds is a recording of the 'crimes'. The penalty is death, or the second death. So, the crimes are read and there is no excuse which can be offered.    



#6
OakWood

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Talking to many people, I have found people in general tend to compare themselves to others. One will say, I am much better then those people or that person. I have done all of these good things, so I am a good person.  

 

When a person who has not accepted Jesus stands before God, they come from a view, that they are basically a good person. Because they have done some good, God should accept them, especially looking at the lives of others which they are 'better' then. I think when God pulls out the book of deeds, it will become very clear how much of a sinner each person has been. I think it will end the talk of having been a good person compared to others. (I have heard that even the worst of offenders in prison have somethings they would never do, which makes them better then the absolute worst.)

 

I take your point and I'm not saying that their judgement will be a picnic for them, but does this suggest to you that they have a chance of salvation, no matter how small?

 

 

No, I do not believe a person who has died has a second chance.  

 

I guess the way I see it, in the U.S. when a person is found guilty and sentenced with death, they are often in prison for many years. If the movies are the least bit accurate, at the time of their execution, their crimes (what they were found guilty of) are read to identify the reason for the execution and then the execution is performed in accordance with the law. In the book of deeds is a recording of the 'crimes'. The penalty is death, or the second death. So, the crimes are read and there is no excuse which can be offered.    

 

 

That is not a judgement. That is simply a clarification of the verdict by breaking it down into detail. We all know what judgement means in the Bible.



#7
Bible_Gazer

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What's the point of judging somebody according to what they have done if they are destined for damnation anyway?


I think its judgment for them in that days what ever they do their at that time.

They already died for the sins, so those past sins are paid for, that was their penalty.

These people died because they were not overcomer yet, they didn't get complete victory.

They died before the time.

God's mercy let them finish it out if they choose to. As we read some don't

Some call it second chance, could just say God with his great mercy is not done with them yet.

Well the hard part might be with some is they may think God does not have to prove people out.

I think everybody is to be proven of their faith toward God.

So with that thought, death bed repentance people still have to be proven.

So where will that be done at, I think it in the 2nd resurrection.

God triest the heart.

You have to have Jesus to get a resurrection. 1st or 2nd

Psalm 1:5 says the ungodly will not stand(or rise) in the judgment.



How I see it so far.

#8
OakWood

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What's the point of judging somebody according to what they have done if they are destined for damnation anyway?


I think its judgment for them in that days what ever they do their at that time.

They already died for the sins, so those past sins are paid for, that was their penalty.

These people died because they were not overcomer yet, they didn't get complete victory.

They died before the time.

God's mercy let them finish it out if they choose to. As we read some don't

Some call it second chance, could just say God with his great mercy is not done with them yet.

Well the hard part might be with some is they may think God does not have to prove people out.

I think everybody is to be proven of their faith toward God.

So with that thought, death bed repentance people still have to be proven.

So where will that be done at, I think it in the 2nd resurrection.

God triest the heart.

You have to have Jesus to get a resurrection. 1st or 2nd

Psalm 1:5 says the ungodly will not stand(or rise) in the judgment.



How I see it so far.

 

 

I'm not saying that these people won't need Jesus, all I'm saying is that they will be judged according to their deeds. And don't forget that Jesus is the judge so whatever the verdict is, it has to come through Jesus. So these people will be coming through Jesus, so to speak.



#9
Qnts2

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Talking to many people, I have found people in general tend to compare themselves to others. One will say, I am much better then those people or that person. I have done all of these good things, so I am a good person.  

 

When a person who has not accepted Jesus stands before God, they come from a view, that they are basically a good person. Because they have done some good, God should accept them, especially looking at the lives of others which they are 'better' then. I think when God pulls out the book of deeds, it will become very clear how much of a sinner each person has been. I think it will end the talk of having been a good person compared to others. (I have heard that even the worst of offenders in prison have somethings they would never do, which makes them better then the absolute worst.)

 

I take your point and I'm not saying that their judgement will be a picnic for them, but does this suggest to you that they have a chance of salvation, no matter how small?

 

 

No, I do not believe a person who has died has a second chance.  

 

I guess the way I see it, in the U.S. when a person is found guilty and sentenced with death, they are often in prison for many years. If the movies are the least bit accurate, at the time of their execution, their crimes (what they were found guilty of) are read to identify the reason for the execution and then the execution is performed in accordance with the law. In the book of deeds is a recording of the 'crimes'. The penalty is death, or the second death. So, the crimes are read and there is no excuse which can be offered.    

 

 

That is not a judgement. That is simply a clarification of the verdict by breaking it down into detail. We all know what judgement means in the Bible.

 

I do believe that is judgement. God already knows all who will be saved, and all that won't. The verdict is already known by God, but that does not mean that it is not judgement. God judges differently then humans. He doesn't need to discover the truth as to the guilt or innocence. Since God already knows, before we were born, the judgement is to show us. And to show that God is just.



#10
OakWood

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Talking to many people, I have found people in general tend to compare themselves to others. One will say, I am much better then those people or that person. I have done all of these good things, so I am a good person.  

 

When a person who has not accepted Jesus stands before God, they come from a view, that they are basically a good person. Because they have done some good, God should accept them, especially looking at the lives of others which they are 'better' then. I think when God pulls out the book of deeds, it will become very clear how much of a sinner each person has been. I think it will end the talk of having been a good person compared to others. (I have heard that even the worst of offenders in prison have somethings they would never do, which makes them better then the absolute worst.)

 

I take your point and I'm not saying that their judgement will be a picnic for them, but does this suggest to you that they have a chance of salvation, no matter how small?

 

 

No, I do not believe a person who has died has a second chance.  

 

I guess the way I see it, in the U.S. when a person is found guilty and sentenced with death, they are often in prison for many years. If the movies are the least bit accurate, at the time of their execution, their crimes (what they were found guilty of) are read to identify the reason for the execution and then the execution is performed in accordance with the law. In the book of deeds is a recording of the 'crimes'. The penalty is death, or the second death. So, the crimes are read and there is no excuse which can be offered.    

 

 

That is not a judgement. That is simply a clarification of the verdict by breaking it down into detail. We all know what judgement means in the Bible.

 

I do believe that is judgement. God already knows all who will be saved, and all that won't. The verdict is already known by God, but that does not mean that it is not judgement. God judges differently then humans. He doesn't need to discover the truth as to the guilt or innocence. Since God already knows, before we were born, the judgement is to show us. And to show that God is just.

 

 

That doesn't make sense. Why bother to break down a person's deeds?

So Jesus is going to list a person's deeds (including the good ones) just to show us that he is judging people, but condemn them all anyway.

Consider the words 'according to'. You do realise that this is a conditional statement? The words 'according to' suggest that the deeds will be taken into consideration, that they influence the verdict. Nowhere in the Bible do these words mean anything else. If the verdict is based purely on whether you were a believer or not then the deeds are irrelevant.

Unless you believe that there are several different levels of Hell and God is using your deeds to determine which one you go to, then I can't see any other explanation. But there is nothing in scripture (to my knowledge) to suggest that there are different types of Hell.

Remember that Jesus gave us the gift of salvation free of charge. Believers accepted this gift. Non-believers didn't. They have to work for their salvation and that is why they are judged.



#11
Izzel

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What's the point of judging somebody according to what they have done if they are destined for damnation anyway?

What the point if satan will be judged if he is condemed already that should answer your question 



#12
Qnts2

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I do believe that is judgement. God already knows all who will be saved, and all that won't. The verdict is already known by God, but that does not mean that it is not judgement. God judges differently then humans. He doesn't need to discover the truth as to the guilt or innocence. Since God already knows, before we were born, the judgement is to show us. And to show that God is just.

 

 

That doesn't make sense. Why bother to break down a person's deeds?

So Jesus is going to list a person's deeds (including the good ones) just to show us that he is judging people, but condemn them all anyway.

Consider the words 'according to'. You do realise that this is a conditional statement? The words 'according to' suggest that the deeds will be taken into consideration, that they influence the verdict. Nowhere in the Bible do these words mean anything else. If the verdict is based purely on whether you were a believer or not then the deeds are irrelevant.

Unless you believe that there are several different levels of Hell and God is using your deeds to determine which one you go to, then I can't see any other explanation. But there is nothing in scripture (to my knowledge) to suggest that there are different types of Hell.

Remember that Jesus gave us the gift of salvation free of charge. Believers accepted this gift. Non-believers didn't. They have to work for their salvation and that is why they are judged.

 

 

Ok, can a person earn their salvation by their works. The bible answers that question, and the answer is no.

 

When Adam sinned, mankind fell.  Some have asked if they are going to hell, because of Adam. The answer is no. Some have said that rejection of Jesus is the reason people go to hell. That is also not true. People go to hell because they have sinned. The penalty of sin is death, and the lake of fire is called the second death. It is the final death and punishment for sin.  

 

I have explained this by asking a few questions in the past. If Jesus had never come, never died for sins, we would all go to hell. Why? Because we all sinned. Our final destination would be hell, which is what we all deserve because we violated the law. So, the most basic of truths is that we all violated the law, sinned, and all deserve hell. No amount of good work can alter the fact that we all violated, broke the law and the penalty for that is death/hell. There is not a single person who can truthfully say they have not sinned and there is not a single person who can claim such superior good works which changes that fact that we have sinned.  So, people do not go to hell because they rejected Jesus. They are going to hell because they violated the law and sinned and if Jesus never came, that was already our destination and that is where we would all rightfully go.

 

Jesus came on a rescue mission to people who were already in violation of the law, headed to hell, sinners. So, when people stand before the white throne judgement, they are already known to be sinners, destined for hell. God will show them all of the sins they have done, and I believe God will show them their thoughts which were prideful, or self righteous, or self motivated. Why are they condemned? What is their charge? God knows they are guilty but at the judgement of what they did, they will discover just how guilty they are. And they will understand that God is just.       



#13
OakWood

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I do believe that is judgement. God already knows all who will be saved, and all that won't. The verdict is already known by God, but that does not mean that it is not judgement. God judges differently then humans. He doesn't need to discover the truth as to the guilt or innocence. Since God already knows, before we were born, the judgement is to show us. And to show that God is just.

 

 

That doesn't make sense. Why bother to break down a person's deeds?

So Jesus is going to list a person's deeds (including the good ones) just to show us that he is judging people, but condemn them all anyway.

Consider the words 'according to'. You do realise that this is a conditional statement? The words 'according to' suggest that the deeds will be taken into consideration, that they influence the verdict. Nowhere in the Bible do these words mean anything else. If the verdict is based purely on whether you were a believer or not then the deeds are irrelevant.

Unless you believe that there are several different levels of Hell and God is using your deeds to determine which one you go to, then I can't see any other explanation. But there is nothing in scripture (to my knowledge) to suggest that there are different types of Hell.

Remember that Jesus gave us the gift of salvation free of charge. Believers accepted this gift. Non-believers didn't. They have to work for their salvation and that is why they are judged.

 

 

Ok, can a person earn their salvation by their works. The bible answers that question, and the answer is no.

 

When Adam sinned, mankind fell.  Some have asked if they are going to hell, because of Adam. The answer is no. Some have said that rejection of Jesus is the reason people go to hell. That is also not true. People go to hell because they have sinned. The penalty of sin is death, and the lake of fire is called the second death. It is the final death and punishment for sin.  

 

I have explained this by asking a few questions in the past. If Jesus had never come, never died for sins, we would all go to hell. Why? Because we all sinned. Our final destination would be hell, which is what we all deserve because we violated the law. So, the most basic of truths is that we all violated the law, sinned, and all deserve hell. No amount of good work can alter the fact that we all violated, broke the law and the penalty for that is death/hell. There is not a single person who can truthfully say they have not sinned and there is not a single person who can claim such superior good works which changes that fact that we have sinned.  So, people do not go to hell because they rejected Jesus. They are going to hell because they violated the law and sinned and if Jesus never came, that was already our destination and that is where we would all rightfully go.

 

Jesus came on a rescue mission to people who were already in violation of the law, headed to hell, sinners. So, when people stand before the white throne judgement, they are already known to be sinners, destined for hell. God will show them all of the sins they have done, and I believe God will show them their thoughts which were prideful, or self righteous, or self motivated. Why are they condemned? What is their charge? God knows they are guilty but at the judgement of what they did, they will discover just how guilty they are. And they will understand that God is just.       

 

 

The Bible does not say that salvation by works is impossible. It says that you can't achieve salvation by works alone. You have to come through Jesus Christ. Every person who is judged is judged by Jesus Christ. So therefore every person is going to be judged by Jesus Christ, and will have his or her final destiny determined by Jesus Christ.

 

You haven't addressed my points, nor my interpretation of what has been said.

You're assuming that God already knows who is condemned and who isn't. I don't dispute that, maybe he does. All I am saying is that Revelation 20:12-30 suggests to me that works are the primary method of judgement for non-believers. The scriptures say this. What else does 'judged according to what they have done' mean? What else could it mean?

 

Of course, the non-believers will no longer be be non-believers  when they meet Christ. They can't be any longer because they will see him, but then they will know whether he chooses them or not.



#14
bopeep1909

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What's the point of judging somebody according to what they have done if they are destined for damnation anyway?

I believe everyone should receive a fair trial and Jesus as fair as He is probably feels the same way.I have always thought that there will be degrees of punishment in hell just as there is degrees of rewards in heaven.I can not see a sweet little ole grandma who never believed in Jesus Christ would get the same punishment as Hitler.Hell is all bad though.



#15
Qnts2

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I do believe that is judgement. God already knows all who will be saved, and all that won't. The verdict is already known by God, but that does not mean that it is not judgement. God judges differently then humans. He doesn't need to discover the truth as to the guilt or innocence. Since God already knows, before we were born, the judgement is to show us. And to show that God is just.

 

 

That doesn't make sense. Why bother to break down a person's deeds?

So Jesus is going to list a person's deeds (including the good ones) just to show us that he is judging people, but condemn them all anyway.

Consider the words 'according to'. You do realise that this is a conditional statement? The words 'according to' suggest that the deeds will be taken into consideration, that they influence the verdict. Nowhere in the Bible do these words mean anything else. If the verdict is based purely on whether you were a believer or not then the deeds are irrelevant.

Unless you believe that there are several different levels of Hell and God is using your deeds to determine which one you go to, then I can't see any other explanation. But there is nothing in scripture (to my knowledge) to suggest that there are different types of Hell.

Remember that Jesus gave us the gift of salvation free of charge. Believers accepted this gift. Non-believers didn't. They have to work for their salvation and that is why they are judged.

 

 

Ok, can a person earn their salvation by their works. The bible answers that question, and the answer is no.

 

When Adam sinned, mankind fell.  Some have asked if they are going to hell, because of Adam. The answer is no. Some have said that rejection of Jesus is the reason people go to hell. That is also not true. People go to hell because they have sinned. The penalty of sin is death, and the lake of fire is called the second death. It is the final death and punishment for sin.  

 

I have explained this by asking a few questions in the past. If Jesus had never come, never died for sins, we would all go to hell. Why? Because we all sinned. Our final destination would be hell, which is what we all deserve because we violated the law. So, the most basic of truths is that we all violated the law, sinned, and all deserve hell. No amount of good work can alter the fact that we all violated, broke the law and the penalty for that is death/hell. There is not a single person who can truthfully say they have not sinned and there is not a single person who can claim such superior good works which changes that fact that we have sinned.  So, people do not go to hell because they rejected Jesus. They are going to hell because they violated the law and sinned and if Jesus never came, that was already our destination and that is where we would all rightfully go.

 

Jesus came on a rescue mission to people who were already in violation of the law, headed to hell, sinners. So, when people stand before the white throne judgement, they are already known to be sinners, destined for hell. God will show them all of the sins they have done, and I believe God will show them their thoughts which were prideful, or self righteous, or self motivated. Why are they condemned? What is their charge? God knows they are guilty but at the judgement of what they did, they will discover just how guilty they are. And they will understand that God is just.       

 

 

The Bible does not say that salvation by works is impossible. It says that you can't achieve salvation by works alone. You have to come through Jesus Christ. Every person who is judged is judged by Jesus Christ. So therefore every person is going to be judged by Jesus Christ, and will have his or her final destiny determined by Jesus Christ.

 

You haven't addressed my points, nor my interpretation of what has been said.

You're assuming that God already knows who is condemned and who isn't. I don't dispute that, maybe he does. All I am saying is that Revelation 20:12-30 suggests to me that works are the primary method of judgement for non-believers. The scriptures say this. What else does 'judged according to what they have done' mean? What else could it mean?

 

Of course, the non-believers will no longer be be non-believers  when they meet Christ. They can't be any longer because they will see him, but then they will know whether he chooses them or not.

 

 

I thought I did answer or respond to your post. Our 'works' pre-born again, are typically sinful. If a person steals, that is a work, and it is sin. If a person gives money to charity, that is work, and the only way to know if it was sinful is by knowing a persons thoughts/heart, which Jesus would. If that person is giving because they love the accolades for being a giver, then it is sin. Jesus is indeed judging works, (and thoughts and motivations for doing the works which is part of the work), and every single person has sinned/violated the law.  

 

But you bring up another interesting point. Does a non-believer mean a person who doesn't believe Jesus was real? Or a person who does not believe Jesus is the Messiah, Savior and/or Lord? I believe there are people who grew up in a Christian based religion and know that Jesus is 'Christ', God and savior, but have not accepted His offer of salvation from sin and the penalty of sin. Some people believe themselves to be Christian by family tradition but have never personally made a decision to follow Jesus. Having met Jesus does not guarantee salvation (as is evidenced in scripture), being taught about Who Jesus is and What He did does not guarantee salvation.   



#16
OakWood

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I do believe that is judgement. God already knows all who will be saved, and all that won't. The verdict is already known by God, but that does not mean that it is not judgement. God judges differently then humans. He doesn't need to discover the truth as to the guilt or innocence. Since God already knows, before we were born, the judgement is to show us. And to show that God is just.

 

 

That doesn't make sense. Why bother to break down a person's deeds?

So Jesus is going to list a person's deeds (including the good ones) just to show us that he is judging people, but condemn them all anyway.

Consider the words 'according to'. You do realise that this is a conditional statement? The words 'according to' suggest that the deeds will be taken into consideration, that they influence the verdict. Nowhere in the Bible do these words mean anything else. If the verdict is based purely on whether you were a believer or not then the deeds are irrelevant.

Unless you believe that there are several different levels of Hell and God is using your deeds to determine which one you go to, then I can't see any other explanation. But there is nothing in scripture (to my knowledge) to suggest that there are different types of Hell.

Remember that Jesus gave us the gift of salvation free of charge. Believers accepted this gift. Non-believers didn't. They have to work for their salvation and that is why they are judged.

 

 

Ok, can a person earn their salvation by their works. The bible answers that question, and the answer is no.

 

When Adam sinned, mankind fell.  Some have asked if they are going to hell, because of Adam. The answer is no. Some have said that rejection of Jesus is the reason people go to hell. That is also not true. People go to hell because they have sinned. The penalty of sin is death, and the lake of fire is called the second death. It is the final death and punishment for sin.  

 

I have explained this by asking a few questions in the past. If Jesus had never come, never died for sins, we would all go to hell. Why? Because we all sinned. Our final destination would be hell, which is what we all deserve because we violated the law. So, the most basic of truths is that we all violated the law, sinned, and all deserve hell. No amount of good work can alter the fact that we all violated, broke the law and the penalty for that is death/hell. There is not a single person who can truthfully say they have not sinned and there is not a single person who can claim such superior good works which changes that fact that we have sinned.  So, people do not go to hell because they rejected Jesus. They are going to hell because they violated the law and sinned and if Jesus never came, that was already our destination and that is where we would all rightfully go.

 

Jesus came on a rescue mission to people who were already in violation of the law, headed to hell, sinners. So, when people stand before the white throne judgement, they are already known to be sinners, destined for hell. God will show them all of the sins they have done, and I believe God will show them their thoughts which were prideful, or self righteous, or self motivated. Why are they condemned? What is their charge? God knows they are guilty but at the judgement of what they did, they will discover just how guilty they are. And they will understand that God is just.       

 

 

The Bible does not say that salvation by works is impossible. It says that you can't achieve salvation by works alone. You have to come through Jesus Christ. Every person who is judged is judged by Jesus Christ. So therefore every person is going to be judged by Jesus Christ, and will have his or her final destiny determined by Jesus Christ.

 

You haven't addressed my points, nor my interpretation of what has been said.

You're assuming that God already knows who is condemned and who isn't. I don't dispute that, maybe he does. All I am saying is that Revelation 20:12-30 suggests to me that works are the primary method of judgement for non-believers. The scriptures say this. What else does 'judged according to what they have done' mean? What else could it mean?

 

Of course, the non-believers will no longer be be non-believers  when they meet Christ. They can't be any longer because they will see him, but then they will know whether he chooses them or not.

 

 

I thought I did answer or respond to your post. Our 'works' pre-born again, are typically sinful. If a person steals, that is a work, and it is sin. If a person gives money to charity, that is work, and the only way to know if it was sinful is by knowing a persons thoughts/heart, which Jesus would. If that person is giving because they love the accolades for being a giver, then it is sin. Jesus is indeed judging works, (and thoughts and motivations for doing the works which is part of the work), and every single person has sinned/violated the law.  

 

But you bring up another interesting point. Does a non-believer mean a person who doesn't believe Jesus was real? Or a person who does not believe Jesus is the Messiah, Savior and/or Lord? I believe there are people who grew up in a Christian based religion and know that Jesus is 'Christ', God and savior, but have not accepted His offer of salvation from sin and the penalty of sin. Some people believe themselves to be Christian by family tradition but have never personally made a decision to follow Jesus. Having met Jesus does not guarantee salvation (as is evidenced in scripture), being taught about Who Jesus is and What He did does not guarantee salvation.   

 

 

I'm not saying that Jesus' standards won't be extremely high or that he would use different criteria to us when he judges.All you're doing is giving me more and more reasons why you think he would judge harshly (I'm really glad that you're not the one doing the judging, you'd be mercilessly tough). What I am saying is that there is no point in judging if all verdicts are predetermined.

As for what type of non-believer I mean, I don't know. I have no idea. Scripture doesn't say. It just mentions 'the dead, great and small'.



#17
Qnts2

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I do believe that is judgement. God already knows all who will be saved, and all that won't. The verdict is already known by God, but that does not mean that it is not judgement. God judges differently then humans. He doesn't need to discover the truth as to the guilt or innocence. Since God already knows, before we were born, the judgement is to show us. And to show that God is just.

 

 

That doesn't make sense. Why bother to break down a person's deeds?

So Jesus is going to list a person's deeds (including the good ones) just to show us that he is judging people, but condemn them all anyway.

Consider the words 'according to'. You do realise that this is a conditional statement? The words 'according to' suggest that the deeds will be taken into consideration, that they influence the verdict. Nowhere in the Bible do these words mean anything else. If the verdict is based purely on whether you were a believer or not then the deeds are irrelevant.

Unless you believe that there are several different levels of Hell and God is using your deeds to determine which one you go to, then I can't see any other explanation. But there is nothing in scripture (to my knowledge) to suggest that there are different types of Hell.

Remember that Jesus gave us the gift of salvation free of charge. Believers accepted this gift. Non-believers didn't. They have to work for their salvation and that is why they are judged.

 

 

Ok, can a person earn their salvation by their works. The bible answers that question, and the answer is no.

 

When Adam sinned, mankind fell.  Some have asked if they are going to hell, because of Adam. The answer is no. Some have said that rejection of Jesus is the reason people go to hell. That is also not true. People go to hell because they have sinned. The penalty of sin is death, and the lake of fire is called the second death. It is the final death and punishment for sin.  

 

I have explained this by asking a few questions in the past. If Jesus had never come, never died for sins, we would all go to hell. Why? Because we all sinned. Our final destination would be hell, which is what we all deserve because we violated the law. So, the most basic of truths is that we all violated the law, sinned, and all deserve hell. No amount of good work can alter the fact that we all violated, broke the law and the penalty for that is death/hell. There is not a single person who can truthfully say they have not sinned and there is not a single person who can claim such superior good works which changes that fact that we have sinned.  So, people do not go to hell because they rejected Jesus. They are going to hell because they violated the law and sinned and if Jesus never came, that was already our destination and that is where we would all rightfully go.

 

Jesus came on a rescue mission to people who were already in violation of the law, headed to hell, sinners. So, when people stand before the white throne judgement, they are already known to be sinners, destined for hell. God will show them all of the sins they have done, and I believe God will show them their thoughts which were prideful, or self righteous, or self motivated. Why are they condemned? What is their charge? God knows they are guilty but at the judgement of what they did, they will discover just how guilty they are. And they will understand that God is just.       

 

 

The Bible does not say that salvation by works is impossible. It says that you can't achieve salvation by works alone. You have to come through Jesus Christ. Every person who is judged is judged by Jesus Christ. So therefore every person is going to be judged by Jesus Christ, and will have his or her final destiny determined by Jesus Christ.

 

You haven't addressed my points, nor my interpretation of what has been said.

You're assuming that God already knows who is condemned and who isn't. I don't dispute that, maybe he does. All I am saying is that Revelation 20:12-30 suggests to me that works are the primary method of judgement for non-believers. The scriptures say this. What else does 'judged according to what they have done' mean? What else could it mean?

 

Of course, the non-believers will no longer be be non-believers  when they meet Christ. They can't be any longer because they will see him, but then they will know whether he chooses them or not.

 

 

I thought I did answer or respond to your post. Our 'works' pre-born again, are typically sinful. If a person steals, that is a work, and it is sin. If a person gives money to charity, that is work, and the only way to know if it was sinful is by knowing a persons thoughts/heart, which Jesus would. If that person is giving because they love the accolades for being a giver, then it is sin. Jesus is indeed judging works, (and thoughts and motivations for doing the works which is part of the work), and every single person has sinned/violated the law.  

 

But you bring up another interesting point. Does a non-believer mean a person who doesn't believe Jesus was real? Or a person who does not believe Jesus is the Messiah, Savior and/or Lord? I believe there are people who grew up in a Christian based religion and know that Jesus is 'Christ', God and savior, but have not accepted His offer of salvation from sin and the penalty of sin. Some people believe themselves to be Christian by family tradition but have never personally made a decision to follow Jesus. Having met Jesus does not guarantee salvation (as is evidenced in scripture), being taught about Who Jesus is and What He did does not guarantee salvation.   

 

 

I'm not saying that Jesus' standards won't be extremely high or that he would use different criteria to us when he judges.All you're doing is giving me more and more reasons why you think he would judge harshly (I'm really glad that you're not the one doing the judging, you'd be mercilessly tough). What I am saying is that there is no point in judging if all verdicts are predetermined.

As for what type of non-believer I mean, I don't know. I have no idea. Scripture doesn't say. It just mentions 'the dead, great and small'.

 

 

You are right, I might be too harsh, and at times, I might be too soft. In the end, the criteria is already set by God who is just.

 

I believe salvation is by faith in Jesus thru grace, with no works but once saved our 'works' change along with our new nature. I believe there isn't a single person on earth who has not sinned, and therefore all are rightfully destined for hell because of their crime doing works and thoughts of sin.

 

Actually, I think the main difference in our views is that I believe the only time a person is given to believe in Jesus completed work is before they die. As long as a person 'has breath' there is hope. Once a person dies, they either go to be with the Lord, or they reside in hell, waiting for the final judgement. For the saints, the judgement will sort thru the works, and either burning up those works of flesh, and receiving awards for those works of Spirit.



#18
OakWood

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I do believe that is judgement. God already knows all who will be saved, and all that won't. The verdict is already known by God, but that does not mean that it is not judgement. God judges differently then humans. He doesn't need to discover the truth as to the guilt or innocence. Since God already knows, before we were born, the judgement is to show us. And to show that God is just.

 

 

That doesn't make sense. Why bother to break down a person's deeds?

So Jesus is going to list a person's deeds (including the good ones) just to show us that he is judging people, but condemn them all anyway.

Consider the words 'according to'. You do realise that this is a conditional statement? The words 'according to' suggest that the deeds will be taken into consideration, that they influence the verdict. Nowhere in the Bible do these words mean anything else. If the verdict is based purely on whether you were a believer or not then the deeds are irrelevant.

Unless you believe that there are several different levels of Hell and God is using your deeds to determine which one you go to, then I can't see any other explanation. But there is nothing in scripture (to my knowledge) to suggest that there are different types of Hell.

Remember that Jesus gave us the gift of salvation free of charge. Believers accepted this gift. Non-believers didn't. They have to work for their salvation and that is why they are judged.

 

 

Ok, can a person earn their salvation by their works. The bible answers that question, and the answer is no.

 

When Adam sinned, mankind fell.  Some have asked if they are going to hell, because of Adam. The answer is no. Some have said that rejection of Jesus is the reason people go to hell. That is also not true. People go to hell because they have sinned. The penalty of sin is death, and the lake of fire is called the second death. It is the final death and punishment for sin.  

 

I have explained this by asking a few questions in the past. If Jesus had never come, never died for sins, we would all go to hell. Why? Because we all sinned. Our final destination would be hell, which is what we all deserve because we violated the law. So, the most basic of truths is that we all violated the law, sinned, and all deserve hell. No amount of good work can alter the fact that we all violated, broke the law and the penalty for that is death/hell. There is not a single person who can truthfully say they have not sinned and there is not a single person who can claim such superior good works which changes that fact that we have sinned.  So, people do not go to hell because they rejected Jesus. They are going to hell because they violated the law and sinned and if Jesus never came, that was already our destination and that is where we would all rightfully go.

 

Jesus came on a rescue mission to people who were already in violation of the law, headed to hell, sinners. So, when people stand before the white throne judgement, they are already known to be sinners, destined for hell. God will show them all of the sins they have done, and I believe God will show them their thoughts which were prideful, or self righteous, or self motivated. Why are they condemned? What is their charge? God knows they are guilty but at the judgement of what they did, they will discover just how guilty they are. And they will understand that God is just.       

 

 

The Bible does not say that salvation by works is impossible. It says that you can't achieve salvation by works alone. You have to come through Jesus Christ. Every person who is judged is judged by Jesus Christ. So therefore every person is going to be judged by Jesus Christ, and will have his or her final destiny determined by Jesus Christ.

 

You haven't addressed my points, nor my interpretation of what has been said.

You're assuming that God already knows who is condemned and who isn't. I don't dispute that, maybe he does. All I am saying is that Revelation 20:12-30 suggests to me that works are the primary method of judgement for non-believers. The scriptures say this. What else does 'judged according to what they have done' mean? What else could it mean?

 

Of course, the non-believers will no longer be be non-believers  when they meet Christ. They can't be any longer because they will see him, but then they will know whether he chooses them or not.

 

 

I thought I did answer or respond to your post. Our 'works' pre-born again, are typically sinful. If a person steals, that is a work, and it is sin. If a person gives money to charity, that is work, and the only way to know if it was sinful is by knowing a persons thoughts/heart, which Jesus would. If that person is giving because they love the accolades for being a giver, then it is sin. Jesus is indeed judging works, (and thoughts and motivations for doing the works which is part of the work), and every single person has sinned/violated the law.  

 

But you bring up another interesting point. Does a non-believer mean a person who doesn't believe Jesus was real? Or a person who does not believe Jesus is the Messiah, Savior and/or Lord? I believe there are people who grew up in a Christian based religion and know that Jesus is 'Christ', God and savior, but have not accepted His offer of salvation from sin and the penalty of sin. Some people believe themselves to be Christian by family tradition but have never personally made a decision to follow Jesus. Having met Jesus does not guarantee salvation (as is evidenced in scripture), being taught about Who Jesus is and What He did does not guarantee salvation.   

 

 

I'm not saying that Jesus' standards won't be extremely high or that he would use different criteria to us when he judges.All you're doing is giving me more and more reasons why you think he would judge harshly (I'm really glad that you're not the one doing the judging, you'd be mercilessly tough). What I am saying is that there is no point in judging if all verdicts are predetermined.

As for what type of non-believer I mean, I don't know. I have no idea. Scripture doesn't say. It just mentions 'the dead, great and small'.

 

 

You are right, I might be too harsh, and at times, I might be too soft. In the end, the criteria is already set by God who is just.

 

I believe salvation is by faith in Jesus thru grace, with no works but once saved our 'works' change along with our new nature. I believe there isn't a single person on earth who has not sinned, and therefore all are rightfully destined for hell because of their crime doing works and thoughts of sin.

 

Actually, I think the main difference in our views is that I believe the only time a person is given to believe in Jesus completed work is before they die. As long as a person 'has breath' there is hope. Once a person dies, they either go to be with the Lord, or they reside in hell, waiting for the final judgement. For the saints, the judgement will sort thru the works, and either burning up those works of flesh, and receiving awards for those works of Spirit.

 

 

My views aren't necessarily different from yours, but Revelation 20 has made me think that I may have to change my mind.. Purely from its interpretation alone, it is making me think that hope is possible for non-believers even after death. I can't interpret it in any other way.



#19
bopeep1909

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I do believe that is judgement. God already knows all who will be saved, and all that won't. The verdict is already known by God, but that does not mean that it is not judgement. God judges differently then humans. He doesn't need to discover the truth as to the guilt or innocence. Since God already knows, before we were born, the judgement is to show us. And to show that God is just.

 

 

That doesn't make sense. Why bother to break down a person's deeds?

So Jesus is going to list a person's deeds (including the good ones) just to show us that he is judging people, but condemn them all anyway.

Consider the words 'according to'. You do realise that this is a conditional statement? The words 'according to' suggest that the deeds will be taken into consideration, that they influence the verdict. Nowhere in the Bible do these words mean anything else. If the verdict is based purely on whether you were a believer or not then the deeds are irrelevant.

Unless you believe that there are several different levels of Hell and God is using your deeds to determine which one you go to, then I can't see any other explanation. But there is nothing in scripture (to my knowledge) to suggest that there are different types of Hell.

Remember that Jesus gave us the gift of salvation free of charge. Believers accepted this gift. Non-believers didn't. They have to work for their salvation and that is why they are judged.

 

 

Ok, can a person earn their salvation by their works. The bible answers that question, and the answer is no.

 

When Adam sinned, mankind fell.  Some have asked if they are going to hell, because of Adam. The answer is no. Some have said that rejection of Jesus is the reason people go to hell. That is also not true. People go to hell because they have sinned. The penalty of sin is death, and the lake of fire is called the second death. It is the final death and punishment for sin.  

 

I have explained this by asking a few questions in the past. If Jesus had never come, never died for sins, we would all go to hell. Why? Because we all sinned. Our final destination would be hell, which is what we all deserve because we violated the law. So, the most basic of truths is that we all violated the law, sinned, and all deserve hell. No amount of good work can alter the fact that we all violated, broke the law and the penalty for that is death/hell. There is not a single person who can truthfully say they have not sinned and there is not a single person who can claim such superior good works which changes that fact that we have sinned.  So, people do not go to hell because they rejected Jesus. They are going to hell because they violated the law and sinned and if Jesus never came, that was already our destination and that is where we would all rightfully go.

 

Jesus came on a rescue mission to people who were already in violation of the law, headed to hell, sinners. So, when people stand before the white throne judgement, they are already known to be sinners, destined for hell. God will show them all of the sins they have done, and I believe God will show them their thoughts which were prideful, or self righteous, or self motivated. Why are they condemned? What is their charge? God knows they are guilty but at the judgement of what they did, they will discover just how guilty they are. And they will understand that God is just.       

 

 

The Bible does not say that salvation by works is impossible. It says that you can't achieve salvation by works alone. You have to come through Jesus Christ. Every person who is judged is judged by Jesus Christ. So therefore every person is going to be judged by Jesus Christ, and will have his or her final destiny determined by Jesus Christ.

 

You haven't addressed my points, nor my interpretation of what has been said.

You're assuming that God already knows who is condemned and who isn't. I don't dispute that, maybe he does. All I am saying is that Revelation 20:12-30 suggests to me that works are the primary method of judgement for non-believers. The scriptures say this. What else does 'judged according to what they have done' mean? What else could it mean?

 

Of course, the non-believers will no longer be be non-believers  when they meet Christ. They can't be any longer because they will see him, but then they will know whether he chooses them or not.

 

 

I thought I did answer or respond to your post. Our 'works' pre-born again, are typically sinful. If a person steals, that is a work, and it is sin. If a person gives money to charity, that is work, and the only way to know if it was sinful is by knowing a persons thoughts/heart, which Jesus would. If that person is giving because they love the accolades for being a giver, then it is sin. Jesus is indeed judging works, (and thoughts and motivations for doing the works which is part of the work), and every single person has sinned/violated the law.  

 

But you bring up another interesting point. Does a non-believer mean a person who doesn't believe Jesus was real? Or a person who does not believe Jesus is the Messiah, Savior and/or Lord? I believe there are people who grew up in a Christian based religion and know that Jesus is 'Christ', God and savior, but have not accepted His offer of salvation from sin and the penalty of sin. Some people believe themselves to be Christian by family tradition but have never personally made a decision to follow Jesus. Having met Jesus does not guarantee salvation (as is evidenced in scripture), being taught about Who Jesus is and What He did does not guarantee salvation.   

 

 

I'm not saying that Jesus' standards won't be extremely high or that he would use different criteria to us when he judges.All you're doing is giving me more and more reasons why you think he would judge harshly (I'm really glad that you're not the one doing the judging, you'd be mercilessly tough). What I am saying is that there is no point in judging if all verdicts are predetermined.

As for what type of non-believer I mean, I don't know. I have no idea. Scripture doesn't say. It just mentions 'the dead, great and small'.

 

 

You are right, I might be too harsh, and at times, I might be too soft. In the end, the criteria is already set by God who is just.

 

I believe salvation is by faith in Jesus thru grace, with no works but once saved our 'works' change along with our new nature. I believe there isn't a single person on earth who has not sinned, and therefore all are rightfully destined for hell because of their crime doing works and thoughts of sin.

 

Actually, I think the main difference in our views is that I believe the only time a person is given to believe in Jesus completed work is before they die. As long as a person 'has breath' there is hope. Once a person dies, they either go to be with the Lord, or they reside in hell, waiting for the final judgement. For the saints, the judgement will sort thru the works, and either burning up those works of flesh, and receiving awards for those works of Spirit.

 

 

My views aren't necessarily different from yours, but Revelation 20 has made me think that I may have to change my mind.. Purely from its interpretation alone, it is making me think that hope is possible for non-believers even after death. I can't interpret it in any other way.

 

After a person dies and has not asked Jesus Christ into their life I am afraid there is no hope.They will go to hell.They have made a choice.



#20
OakWood

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I do believe that is judgement. God already knows all who will be saved, and all that won't. The verdict is already known by God, but that does not mean that it is not judgement. God judges differently then humans. He doesn't need to discover the truth as to the guilt or innocence. Since God already knows, before we were born, the judgement is to show us. And to show that God is just.

 

 

That doesn't make sense. Why bother to break down a person's deeds?

So Jesus is going to list a person's deeds (including the good ones) just to show us that he is judging people, but condemn them all anyway.

Consider the words 'according to'. You do realise that this is a conditional statement? The words 'according to' suggest that the deeds will be taken into consideration, that they influence the verdict. Nowhere in the Bible do these words mean anything else. If the verdict is based purely on whether you were a believer or not then the deeds are irrelevant.

Unless you believe that there are several different levels of Hell and God is using your deeds to determine which one you go to, then I can't see any other explanation. But there is nothing in scripture (to my knowledge) to suggest that there are different types of Hell.

Remember that Jesus gave us the gift of salvation free of charge. Believers accepted this gift. Non-believers didn't. They have to work for their salvation and that is why they are judged.

 

 

Ok, can a person earn their salvation by their works. The bible answers that question, and the answer is no.

 

When Adam sinned, mankind fell.  Some have asked if they are going to hell, because of Adam. The answer is no. Some have said that rejection of Jesus is the reason people go to hell. That is also not true. People go to hell because they have sinned. The penalty of sin is death, and the lake of fire is called the second death. It is the final death and punishment for sin.  

 

I have explained this by asking a few questions in the past. If Jesus had never come, never died for sins, we would all go to hell. Why? Because we all sinned. Our final destination would be hell, which is what we all deserve because we violated the law. So, the most basic of truths is that we all violated the law, sinned, and all deserve hell. No amount of good work can alter the fact that we all violated, broke the law and the penalty for that is death/hell. There is not a single person who can truthfully say they have not sinned and there is not a single person who can claim such superior good works which changes that fact that we have sinned.  So, people do not go to hell because they rejected Jesus. They are going to hell because they violated the law and sinned and if Jesus never came, that was already our destination and that is where we would all rightfully go.

 

Jesus came on a rescue mission to people who were already in violation of the law, headed to hell, sinners. So, when people stand before the white throne judgement, they are already known to be sinners, destined for hell. God will show them all of the sins they have done, and I believe God will show them their thoughts which were prideful, or self righteous, or self motivated. Why are they condemned? What is their charge? God knows they are guilty but at the judgement of what they did, they will discover just how guilty they are. And they will understand that God is just.       

 

 

The Bible does not say that salvation by works is impossible. It says that you can't achieve salvation by works alone. You have to come through Jesus Christ. Every person who is judged is judged by Jesus Christ. So therefore every person is going to be judged by Jesus Christ, and will have his or her final destiny determined by Jesus Christ.

 

You haven't addressed my points, nor my interpretation of what has been said.

You're assuming that God already knows who is condemned and who isn't. I don't dispute that, maybe he does. All I am saying is that Revelation 20:12-30 suggests to me that works are the primary method of judgement for non-believers. The scriptures say this. What else does 'judged according to what they have done' mean? What else could it mean?

 

Of course, the non-believers will no longer be be non-believers  when they meet Christ. They can't be any longer because they will see him, but then they will know whether he chooses them or not.

 

 

I thought I did answer or respond to your post. Our 'works' pre-born again, are typically sinful. If a person steals, that is a work, and it is sin. If a person gives money to charity, that is work, and the only way to know if it was sinful is by knowing a persons thoughts/heart, which Jesus would. If that person is giving because they love the accolades for being a giver, then it is sin. Jesus is indeed judging works, (and thoughts and motivations for doing the works which is part of the work), and every single person has sinned/violated the law.  

 

But you bring up another interesting point. Does a non-believer mean a person who doesn't believe Jesus was real? Or a person who does not believe Jesus is the Messiah, Savior and/or Lord? I believe there are people who grew up in a Christian based religion and know that Jesus is 'Christ', God and savior, but have not accepted His offer of salvation from sin and the penalty of sin. Some people believe themselves to be Christian by family tradition but have never personally made a decision to follow Jesus. Having met Jesus does not guarantee salvation (as is evidenced in scripture), being taught about Who Jesus is and What He did does not guarantee salvation.   

 

 

I'm not saying that Jesus' standards won't be extremely high or that he would use different criteria to us when he judges.All you're doing is giving me more and more reasons why you think he would judge harshly (I'm really glad that you're not the one doing the judging, you'd be mercilessly tough). What I am saying is that there is no point in judging if all verdicts are predetermined.

As for what type of non-believer I mean, I don't know. I have no idea. Scripture doesn't say. It just mentions 'the dead, great and small'.

 

 

You are right, I might be too harsh, and at times, I might be too soft. In the end, the criteria is already set by God who is just.

 

I believe salvation is by faith in Jesus thru grace, with no works but once saved our 'works' change along with our new nature. I believe there isn't a single person on earth who has not sinned, and therefore all are rightfully destined for hell because of their crime doing works and thoughts of sin.

 

Actually, I think the main difference in our views is that I believe the only time a person is given to believe in Jesus completed work is before they die. As long as a person 'has breath' there is hope. Once a person dies, they either go to be with the Lord, or they reside in hell, waiting for the final judgement. For the saints, the judgement will sort thru the works, and either burning up those works of flesh, and receiving awards for those works of Spirit.

 

 

My views aren't necessarily different from yours, but Revelation 20 has made me think that I may have to change my mind.. Purely from its interpretation alone, it is making me think that hope is possible for non-believers even after death. I can't interpret it in any other way.

 

After a person dies and has not asked Jesus Christ into their life I am afraid there is no hope.They will go to hell.They have made a choice.

 

Please explain Revelation 20 12-13 then please.






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