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Understanding Hebrew Roots means...

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#1
JohnDB

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...understanding the vehicles (venues) God commissions and uses to accomplish his plans.

 

The Hebrew origin is not with Abraham, Isaac, or Jacob. It is not even with the namesake (Eber, son of Shem, son of Noah). The origin of the things, people, and mind set of all things Hebrew is God. 

 

So God talks like Jackie Mason?

 

No. Not hardly. But Jesus in a word for word translation said "Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests but the Son of man doesn't have where to lay his head."

 

There are obviously variations, like the variation of the people who rejected Jesus as Messiah. The Jewish population in his day were not so universally against Christianity because they hadn't seen it yet. So (in the words of Michael Medved) Jews were about being Jewish then rather than about being non-Christian today.

 

A parenthetical thought... my only gripe with Messianic Jewish movements (plural) is that they tend to mimic the Jews who rejected  Jesus too much. The yarmulke / head covering for males for example is a direct spite of Christian writings by their least favorite Christian (the turn coat Sha'ul b' Tarshish). So the Messianics erroneously use as their guides to "being Jewish" the branches of the Olive Tree that were cut off for unbelief (Romans 11:16-26).

 

God's plan progressed down through human history just as his revelation did, making superseding covenants with his people along the way. Like the valves in our heart that allow the blood to flow in only one direction, God's covenants disallow returning to previous covenants with him. This is the true meaning of the term "backslidden." It can and does refer to sliding back to sin or an earlier condition that is not good, but sliding back to a prior covenant with God displeases him no end. The biggest sin of the Jews in the wilderness (which just about got them all killed except Moses in Exodus 32) was not just the calf idol or the orgies but the turning back to the life they had before in the dawn of the Law of Moses on the Mountain of God.

 

Believer beware. 1 John 1:9 and 1 John 2:1 are true, but there could be a time when God is trying to show people something and you disobedience at that precise moment might well gain you a severe sentence from above. I am thinking of Moses striking the rock a second time to produce water for the thirsty people... God was trying to show the people that the Messiah is the Rock to turn to who would be struck once for all for all time. And Moses blew the prophetic model and it cost him the privilege of leading Israel into the Promised Land. 

 

Prophetic of the Law of Moses and the Promised Land of Heaven.

 



#2
JohnDB

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As God refined the progression of his plan, he called out a special people for himself... and by that I mean a venue (vehicle) through which he would usher into this dark world his Truth in two forms: the written form the Bible, and the Living Truth the Messiah Yeshua Jesus. This is why he needed a physical vehicle / venue and not just a spirit body of people. In that physical venue he placed an irrevocable covenant of land grants in the Holy Land, and the guardian "those who bless you I will bless and those who curse you I will curse."

 

It was devoid of conditions. Even in unbelief God honors these covenants he made with Abraham (when Abraham was incapacitated and was not a co-cutter of the covenant). Even Christians had better be careful about this.

 

Romans 11:28 (KJV)
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.

 

And a few verses up it says do NOT boast against the branches that were cut off.

 

It is all a matter of the events in this life and has no bearing on eternal salvation in any case. But do not think you are on such stable ground that you can hold God's feet to the fire of your understanding of scripture or covenants. Or that any suffering down here will be easy to get through.



#3
JohnDB

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BTW

 

These are conversational forums discussion forums, and I welcome any questions or comments or challenges to what I write (so long as you are using scripture to make your challenge or correction).

 

I am only human and make mistakes. I could have overlooked something and will bow to scripture.

 

Just please keep the conversation polite as you can (I realize some may be passionate or even incensed by these things), and all I want to do is be a beggar who wants to share where he found bread.



#4
JohnDB

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A major point of scripture and specifically with regard to the plan of God is that the flesh is to be turned from and the spirit is to be turned to. An underlying theme of the Bible is the weaning away from the flesh to the spirit a people who will love God for himself (and not the things he can do for them). If Christianity is nothing more than an exit strategy for you, a pass on damnation, an eternal fire insurance policy... you just might not be as safe as you think or hope. 

 

I am no judge. And I am not trying to scare anyone. Of all the things in life you must be absolutely certain of, your eternal destiny must be near the top of the list. But at the very top of that list must be the love for God and the desire to be with him above all else, or you never really believed... never really believed in Jesus the Son of man Son of God. Then it is only a footnote in your understanding of history that there was a man named Jesus who died and chances are rose again. But true belief would celebrate daily "HE IS RISEN!" and HE IS COMING BACK! and when I die I will go straight into his presence forever!

 

The life of the flesh... not so important.

 

And in this teaching of God to embrace the spiritual and forsake the physical, the Bible teaches:

 

Deuteronomy 10:16 (KJV)
16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

 

Romans 2:28-29 (KJV)
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

 

Jeremiah 4:4 (KJV)
4 Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.

 

Jeremiah 9:26 (KJV)
26 Egypt, and Judah, and Edom, and the children of Ammon, and Moab, and all that are in the utmost corners, that dwell in the wilderness: for all these nations are uncircumcised, and all the house of Israel are uncircumcised in the heart.

 

Matthew 3:9 (KJV)
9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

 

Romans 4:12 (KJV)
12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

 

Romans 4:16 (KJV)
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

 

Romans 3:1-4 (KJV)
1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

 

Romans 9:6-7 (KJV)
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

 

The only thing that makes sense of all of this is that there are physical Jews and spiritual Jews. Physical Israel and spirit Israel. A physical Jew was born to become a spiritual Jew but is cut off if they do not. A spiritual Jew is incapable of becoming a physical Jew unless he or she were born that way.

 

Philippians 3:1-3 (KJV)
1 Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe.
2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.
3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

 

John 4:19-24 (KJV)
19 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.
20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

 



#5
FresnoJoe

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A parenthetical thought... my only gripe with Messianic Jewish movements (plural) is that they tend to mimic the Jews who rejected  Jesus too much.

 

The yarmulke / head covering for males for example is a direct spite of Christian writings by their least favorite Christian (the turn coat Sha'ul b' Tarshish).

 

So the Messianics erroneously use as their guides to "being Jewish" the branches of the Olive Tree that were cut off for unbelief (Romans 11:16-26).

 

:thumbsup:

 

Beloved, Lots-Of-Stuff But I'll Deal With The Hat (I Like Hats)

 

Wearing of a head covering (yarmulka, skullcaps, kippah [pl. kippot]) for men was only instituted in Talmudic times (approximately the second century CE). The first mention of it is in Tractate Shabbat, which discusses respect and fear of God. Some sources likened it to the High Priest who wore a hat (Mitznefet) to remind him something was always between him and God. Thus, wearing a kippah makes us all like the high priest and turns us into a "holy nation." The head covering is also a sign of humility for men, acknowledging what's "above" us (G­d). http://www.jewishvir...ism/Kippah.html

 

Of All Of Those Dear Folks Wearing The Kippah,

 

Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. 1 Peter 2:5

 

The Messianic Jew Is The Most Likely To Be A Priest In The Service Of God

 

But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: 1 Peter 2:9

 

As I See It :)



#6
Qnts2

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Well, most of these posts are once again putting forward replacement theology.

 

 

 

Johdb said '

 

The Hebrew origin is not with Abraham, Isaac, or Jacob. It is not even with the namesake (Eber, son of Shem, son of Noah). The origin of the things, people, and mind set of all things Hebrew is God. '

 

 

 

 

 

Hebrew comes from the Hebrew word Ivrit, which means 'one who crossed over'. Abrahams name is Ivrahim, one who crossed over the river of Euphrates.

 

Genesis 14:13  Then a fugitive came and told Abram the Hebrew. 

 

So clearly, Abraham is referred to as a Hebrew, one who crossed over to a new land, and his descendents are also referred to as Hebrews.  The following verse refers to Joseph, Jacobs son. It is when Potiphars wife makes a false accusation against Joseph.

 

Genesis 39:14 she called to the men of her household and said to them, “See, he has brought in a Hebrew to us to make sport of us; he came in to me to lie with me, and I screamed. 15 When he heard that I raised my voice and screamed, he left his garment beside me and fled and went outside.” 16 So she left his garment beside her until his master came home. 17 Then she spoke to him with these words, “The Hebrew slave, whom you brought to us, came in to me to make sport of me; 18 and as I raised my voice and screamed, he left his garment beside me and fled outside.” 

 

The following refers to Moses, when he was found as a baby by the  Egyptian caughter of Pharoah.

 

Exodus 2:6 When she opened it, she saw the child, and behold, the boy was crying. And she had pity on him and said, “This is one of the Hebrews’ children.”

 

So, the term Hebrew is used only for Abraham and the descendents of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, in scripture.

 

Johndb said 'The Jewish population in his day were not so universally against Christianity because they hadn't seen it yet. So (in the words of Michael Medved) Jews were about being Jewish then rather than about being non-Christian today.

 

Actually, the Jewish people are not about being non-Christian.  That topic only comes up among the Jewish people when the Jewish people feel under attack by people they view as Christians. In everyday existence, the topic of Christians is almost never discussed. Plus, this is misunderstanding. Some in the Jewish community (especially those in America or Europe), think that Gentile and Christian are synonyms. There is an effort to explain the difference between a Gentile (linage) and Christian (faith).

 

Johndb said 'A parenthetical thought... my only gripe with Messianic Jewish movements (plural) is that they tend to mimic the Jews who rejected  Jesus too much. The yarmulke / head covering for males for example is a direct spite of Christian writings by their least favorite Christian (the turn coat Sha'ul b' Tarshish). '

             

That is a gross generalizaton which is false. Messianic Jewish movements are made up of Jewish believers in Jesus, and Gentiles who have joined them. The leadership is Jewish, so you do not have Jews mimicking Jews. You have Jews acting like Jews, the way they were raised. There are some groups who are almost entirely Gentile, who call themselves Messianic (usually never Messianic Judaism), who do mimick Jews. Most Jews find the mimicry insulting as it is a characterization or exaggeration.  No Jewish believer (Messianic Jew) that I know calls or views Paul as a turn coat, nor spite his writings, so that is a false characterization of Messianic Jews.    



#7
JohnDB

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Well, most of these posts are once again putting forward replacement theology.

 

 

 

Johdb said '

 

The Hebrew origin is not with Abraham, Isaac, or Jacob. It is not even with the namesake (Eber, son of Shem, son of Noah). The origin of the things, people, and mind set of all things Hebrew is God. '

 

 

 

 

 

Hebrew comes from the Hebrew word Ivrit, which means 'one who crossed over'. Abrahams name is Ivrahim, one who crossed over the river of Euphrates.

 

Genesis 14:13  Then a fugitive came and told Abram the Hebrew. 

 

So clearly, Abraham is referred to as a Hebrew, one who crossed over to a new land, and his descendents are also referred to as Hebrews.  The following verse refers to Joseph, Jacobs son. It is when Potiphars wife makes a false accusation against Joseph.

 

Genesis 39:14 she called to the men of her household and said to them, “See, he has brought in a Hebrew to us to make sport of us; he came in to me to lie with me, and I screamed. 15 When he heard that I raised my voice and screamed, he left his garment beside me and fled and went outside.” 16 So she left his garment beside her until his master came home. 17 Then she spoke to him with these words, “The Hebrew slave, whom you brought to us, came in to me to make sport of me; 18 and as I raised my voice and screamed, he left his garment beside me and fled outside.” 

 

The following refers to Moses, when he was found as a baby by the  Egyptian caughter of Pharoah.

 

Exodus 2:6 When she opened it, she saw the child, and behold, the boy was crying. And she had pity on him and said, “This is one of the Hebrews’ children.”

 

So, the term Hebrew is used only for Abraham and the descendents of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, in scripture.

 

Johndb said 'The Jewish population in his day were not so universally against Christianity because they hadn't seen it yet. So (in the words of Michael Medved) Jews were about being Jewish then rather than about being non-Christian today.

 

Actually, the Jewish people are not about being non-Christian.  That topic only comes up among the Jewish people when the Jewish people feel under attack by people they view as Christians. In everyday existence, the topic of Christians is almost never discussed. Plus, this is misunderstanding. Some in the Jewish community (especially those in America or Europe), think that Gentile and Christian are synonyms. There is an effort to explain the difference between a Gentile (linage) and Christian (faith).

 

Johndb said 'A parenthetical thought... my only gripe with Messianic Jewish movements (plural) is that they tend to mimic the Jews who rejected  Jesus too much. The yarmulke / head covering for males for example is a direct spite of Christian writings by their least favorite Christian (the turn coat Sha'ul b' Tarshish). '

             

That is a gross generalizaton which is false. Messianic Jewish movements are made up of Jewish believers in Jesus, and Gentiles who have joined them. The leadership is Jewish, so you do not have Jews mimicking Jews. You have Jews acting like Jews, the way they were raised. There are some groups who are almost entirely Gentile, who call themselves Messianic (usually never Messianic Judaism), who do mimick Jews. Most Jews find the mimicry insulting as it is a characterization or exaggeration.  No Jewish believer (Messianic Jew) that I know calls or views Paul as a turn coat, nor spite his writings, so that is a false characterization of Messianic Jews.    

 

Not replacement theology.

 

Replacement theology is trying to make physical Jews our of physical Gentiles.

 

This has no part of that, in fact I posted the exact opposite. And pointed out that the physical Jews are still God's chosen people of this world (whether in belief or unbelief). Furthermore, the Spiritual Jew / Israeli is God's chosen from the Jerusalem which is from above (Galatians 4:21-31).

 

Romans 11:16-26 also supports that this is not replacement theology but inclusive theology (as physical Gentiles are grafted into the Spiritual Olive Tree).

 

That's point #1



#8
JohnDB

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Well, most of these posts are once again putting forward replacement theology.

 

 

 

Johdb said '

 

The Hebrew origin is not with Abraham, Isaac, or Jacob. It is not even with the namesake (Eber, son of Shem, son of Noah). The origin of the things, people, and mind set of all things Hebrew is God. '

 

 

 

 

 

Hebrew comes from the Hebrew word Ivrit, which means 'one who crossed over'. Abrahams name is Ivrahim, one who crossed over the river of Euphrates.

 

Genesis 14:13  Then a fugitive came and told Abram the Hebrew. 

 

So clearly, Abraham is referred to as a Hebrew, one who crossed over to a new land, and his descendents are also referred to as Hebrews.  The following verse refers to Joseph, Jacobs son. It is when Potiphars wife makes a false accusation against Joseph.

 

Genesis 39:14 she called to the men of her household and said to them, “See, he has brought in a Hebrew to us to make sport of us; he came in to me to lie with me, and I screamed. 15 When he heard that I raised my voice and screamed, he left his garment beside me and fled and went outside.” 16 So she left his garment beside her until his master came home. 17 Then she spoke to him with these words, “The Hebrew slave, whom you brought to us, came in to me to make sport of me; 18 and as I raised my voice and screamed, he left his garment beside me and fled outside.” 

 

The following refers to Moses, when he was found as a baby by the  Egyptian caughter of Pharoah.

 

Exodus 2:6 When she opened it, she saw the child, and behold, the boy was crying. And she had pity on him and said, “This is one of the Hebrews’ children.”

 

So, the term Hebrew is used only for Abraham and the descendents of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, in scripture.

 

Johndb said 'The Jewish population in his day were not so universally against Christianity because they hadn't seen it yet. So (in the words of Michael Medved) Jews were about being Jewish then rather than about being non-Christian today.

 

Actually, the Jewish people are not about being non-Christian.  That topic only comes up among the Jewish people when the Jewish people feel under attack by people they view as Christians. In everyday existence, the topic of Christians is almost never discussed. Plus, this is misunderstanding. Some in the Jewish community (especially those in America or Europe), think that Gentile and Christian are synonyms. There is an effort to explain the difference between a Gentile (linage) and Christian (faith).

 

Johndb said 'A parenthetical thought... my only gripe with Messianic Jewish movements (plural) is that they tend to mimic the Jews who rejected  Jesus too much. The yarmulke / head covering for males for example is a direct spite of Christian writings by their least favorite Christian (the turn coat Sha'ul b' Tarshish). '

             

That is a gross generalizaton which is false. Messianic Jewish movements are made up of Jewish believers in Jesus, and Gentiles who have joined them. The leadership is Jewish, so you do not have Jews mimicking Jews. You have Jews acting like Jews, the way they were raised. There are some groups who are almost entirely Gentile, who call themselves Messianic (usually never Messianic Judaism), who do mimick Jews. Most Jews find the mimicry insulting as it is a characterization or exaggeration.  No Jewish believer (Messianic Jew) that I know calls or views Paul as a turn coat, nor spite his writings, so that is a false characterization of Messianic Jews.    

 

Point #2

 

Strong's Hebrew #5680 ...escaped, and told Abram the Hebrew; for he dwelt in ...
5680 `Ibriy { ib-ree’}
 
patronymic from 5677;
 
AV - Hebrew 29, Hebrew woman 2, Hebrew + 376 1, Hebrewess 1, Hebrew man 1; 34
GK - 6303 { עִבְרִי }
Hebrew = “one from beyond”
n pr
1) a designation of the patriarchs and the Israelites adj
2) a designation of the patriarchs and the Israelites
 
5677 `Eber { ay’-ber}

 

the same as 5676;; n pr m

 

AV - Eber 13, Heber 2; 15

 

GK - 6299 { עֵבֶר }

 

Eber or Heber = “the region beyond”

1) son of Salah, great grandson of Shem, father of Peleg and Joktan

2) a Gadite chief

3) a Benjamite, son of Elpaal and descendant of Sharahaim

4) a Benjamite, son of Shashak

5) a priest in the days of Joiakim the son of Jeshua

 



#9
JohnDB

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Well, most of these posts are once again putting forward replacement theology.

 

 

 

Johdb said '

 

The Hebrew origin is not with Abraham, Isaac, or Jacob. It is not even with the namesake (Eber, son of Shem, son of Noah). The origin of the things, people, and mind set of all things Hebrew is God. '

 

 

 

 

 

Hebrew comes from the Hebrew word Ivrit, which means 'one who crossed over'. Abrahams name is Ivrahim, one who crossed over the river of Euphrates.

 

Genesis 14:13  Then a fugitive came and told Abram the Hebrew. 

 

So clearly, Abraham is referred to as a Hebrew, one who crossed over to a new land, and his descendents are also referred to as Hebrews.  The following verse refers to Joseph, Jacobs son. It is when Potiphars wife makes a false accusation against Joseph.

 

Genesis 39:14 she called to the men of her household and said to them, “See, he has brought in a Hebrew to us to make sport of us; he came in to me to lie with me, and I screamed. 15 When he heard that I raised my voice and screamed, he left his garment beside me and fled and went outside.” 16 So she left his garment beside her until his master came home. 17 Then she spoke to him with these words, “The Hebrew slave, whom you brought to us, came in to me to make sport of me; 18 and as I raised my voice and screamed, he left his garment beside me and fled outside.” 

 

The following refers to Moses, when he was found as a baby by the  Egyptian caughter of Pharoah.

 

Exodus 2:6 When she opened it, she saw the child, and behold, the boy was crying. And she had pity on him and said, “This is one of the Hebrews’ children.”

 

So, the term Hebrew is used only for Abraham and the descendents of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, in scripture.

 

Johndb said 'The Jewish population in his day were not so universally against Christianity because they hadn't seen it yet. So (in the words of Michael Medved) Jews were about being Jewish then rather than about being non-Christian today.

 

Actually, the Jewish people are not about being non-Christian.  That topic only comes up among the Jewish people when the Jewish people feel under attack by people they view as Christians. In everyday existence, the topic of Christians is almost never discussed. Plus, this is misunderstanding. Some in the Jewish community (especially those in America or Europe), think that Gentile and Christian are synonyms. There is an effort to explain the difference between a Gentile (linage) and Christian (faith).

 

Johndb said 'A parenthetical thought... my only gripe with Messianic Jewish movements (plural) is that they tend to mimic the Jews who rejected  Jesus too much. The yarmulke / head covering for males for example is a direct spite of Christian writings by their least favorite Christian (the turn coat Sha'ul b' Tarshish). '

             

That is a gross generalizaton which is false. Messianic Jewish movements are made up of Jewish believers in Jesus, and Gentiles who have joined them. The leadership is Jewish, so you do not have Jews mimicking Jews. You have Jews acting like Jews, the way they were raised. There are some groups who are almost entirely Gentile, who call themselves Messianic (usually never Messianic Judaism), who do mimick Jews. Most Jews find the mimicry insulting as it is a characterization or exaggeration.  No Jewish believer (Messianic Jew) that I know calls or views Paul as a turn coat, nor spite his writings, so that is a false characterization of Messianic Jews.    

 

Last point to reply to this post.

 

The Messianic Jewish Movement is a many splendid thing ranging from unbelief in the deity of Messiah to the unbelief in his resurrection from the dead. The one thing that unites them is the "Jewish" in Messianic Jewish ... Movement, Congregation, faith, approach... etc.

 

And this "Jewishness" in all ways but rejecting Jesus is a flavoring / seasoning / mimicking of the Jews who do not believe in Jesus rather than the first century Jewish people who were either deeply into freedom from Roman oppression, deeply into Torah, oe expecting the Messiah.

 

God bless.



#10
Qnts2

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Well, most of these posts are once again putting forward replacement theology.

 

 

 

Johdb said '

 

The Hebrew origin is not with Abraham, Isaac, or Jacob. It is not even with the namesake (Eber, son of Shem, son of Noah). The origin of the things, people, and mind set of all things Hebrew is God. '

 

 

 

 

 

Hebrew comes from the Hebrew word Ivrit, which means 'one who crossed over'. Abrahams name is Ivrahim, one who crossed over the river of Euphrates.

 

Genesis 14:13  Then a fugitive came and told Abram the Hebrew. 

 

So clearly, Abraham is referred to as a Hebrew, one who crossed over to a new land, and his descendents are also referred to as Hebrews.  The following verse refers to Joseph, Jacobs son. It is when Potiphars wife makes a false accusation against Joseph.

 

Genesis 39:14 she called to the men of her household and said to them, “See, he has brought in a Hebrew to us to make sport of us; he came in to me to lie with me, and I screamed. 15 When he heard that I raised my voice and screamed, he left his garment beside me and fled and went outside.” 16 So she left his garment beside her until his master came home. 17 Then she spoke to him with these words, “The Hebrew slave, whom you brought to us, came in to me to make sport of me; 18 and as I raised my voice and screamed, he left his garment beside me and fled outside.” 

 

The following refers to Moses, when he was found as a baby by the  Egyptian caughter of Pharoah.

 

Exodus 2:6 When she opened it, she saw the child, and behold, the boy was crying. And she had pity on him and said, “This is one of the Hebrews’ children.”

 

So, the term Hebrew is used only for Abraham and the descendents of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, in scripture.

 

Johndb said 'The Jewish population in his day were not so universally against Christianity because they hadn't seen it yet. So (in the words of Michael Medved) Jews were about being Jewish then rather than about being non-Christian today.

 

Actually, the Jewish people are not about being non-Christian.  That topic only comes up among the Jewish people when the Jewish people feel under attack by people they view as Christians. In everyday existence, the topic of Christians is almost never discussed. Plus, this is misunderstanding. Some in the Jewish community (especially those in America or Europe), think that Gentile and Christian are synonyms. There is an effort to explain the difference between a Gentile (linage) and Christian (faith).

 

Johndb said 'A parenthetical thought... my only gripe with Messianic Jewish movements (plural) is that they tend to mimic the Jews who rejected  Jesus too much. The yarmulke / head covering for males for example is a direct spite of Christian writings by their least favorite Christian (the turn coat Sha'ul b' Tarshish). '

             

That is a gross generalizaton which is false. Messianic Jewish movements are made up of Jewish believers in Jesus, and Gentiles who have joined them. The leadership is Jewish, so you do not have Jews mimicking Jews. You have Jews acting like Jews, the way they were raised. There are some groups who are almost entirely Gentile, who call themselves Messianic (usually never Messianic Judaism), who do mimick Jews. Most Jews find the mimicry insulting as it is a characterization or exaggeration.  No Jewish believer (Messianic Jew) that I know calls or views Paul as a turn coat, nor spite his writings, so that is a false characterization of Messianic Jews.    

 

Not replacement theology.

 

Replacement theology is trying to make physical Jews our of physical Gentiles.

 

This has no part of that, in fact I posted the exact opposite. And pointed out that the physical Jews are still God's chosen people of this world (whether in belief or unbelief). Furthermore, the Spiritual Jew / Israeli is God's chosen from the Jerusalem which is from above (Galatians 4:21-31).

 

Romans 11:16-26 also supports that this is not replacement theology but inclusive theology (as physical Gentiles are grafted into the Spiritual Olive Tree).

 

That's point #1

 

 

Replacement theology, also known as supersessionism, teaches that the church is Israel/Hebrew/Jews. The church is not Israel or Hebrews or Jews. The church, made up of both Jews and Gentiles who believe on Jesus is called the Elect, children of God by adoption, the bride of Messiah, and other wonderful names, but the church is never, ever called Hebrew, Israel, or Jew.  Inclusive theology is when Jews and Gentiles who are believers in Jesus come together to form One New Man.

 

Branches from the wild olive tree are grafted into the Olive tree, but remain wild olive branches. Israel branches who are not believers were broken off. That means the olive tree is not Israel. The branches are Israel, just as it is wild branches grafted in which are Gentiles. Since most of the Israel branches are broken off, if the wild branchs were grafted into Israel (which they aren't) the wild branches would be grafted into broken off Israel branches. The Olive tree in that parable is NOT Israel, but rather the Messiah, or the promises given of and by the Messiah. We are both grafted into the Messiah. We become grafted the same way, and receive our life from the same source, as well as the blessings. But, I remain physically Jewish, and you remain physically Gentiles. There are not categories like spiritual Jew which Gentiles can become, just as there is not a category of spiritual Gentiles which Jews can become.     



#11
Qnts2

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Well, most of these posts are once again putting forward replacement theology.

 

 

 

Johdb said '

 

The Hebrew origin is not with Abraham, Isaac, or Jacob. It is not even with the namesake (Eber, son of Shem, son of Noah). The origin of the things, people, and mind set of all things Hebrew is God. '

 

 

 

 

 

Hebrew comes from the Hebrew word Ivrit, which means 'one who crossed over'. Abrahams name is Ivrahim, one who crossed over the river of Euphrates.

 

Genesis 14:13  Then a fugitive came and told Abram the Hebrew. 

 

So clearly, Abraham is referred to as a Hebrew, one who crossed over to a new land, and his descendents are also referred to as Hebrews.  The following verse refers to Joseph, Jacobs son. It is when Potiphars wife makes a false accusation against Joseph.

 

Genesis 39:14 she called to the men of her household and said to them, “See, he has brought in a Hebrew to us to make sport of us; he came in to me to lie with me, and I screamed. 15 When he heard that I raised my voice and screamed, he left his garment beside me and fled and went outside.” 16 So she left his garment beside her until his master came home. 17 Then she spoke to him with these words, “The Hebrew slave, whom you brought to us, came in to me to make sport of me; 18 and as I raised my voice and screamed, he left his garment beside me and fled outside.” 

 

The following refers to Moses, when he was found as a baby by the  Egyptian caughter of Pharoah.

 

Exodus 2:6 When she opened it, she saw the child, and behold, the boy was crying. And she had pity on him and said, “This is one of the Hebrews’ children.”

 

So, the term Hebrew is used only for Abraham and the descendents of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, in scripture.

 

Johndb said 'The Jewish population in his day were not so universally against Christianity because they hadn't seen it yet. So (in the words of Michael Medved) Jews were about being Jewish then rather than about being non-Christian today.

 

Actually, the Jewish people are not about being non-Christian.  That topic only comes up among the Jewish people when the Jewish people feel under attack by people they view as Christians. In everyday existence, the topic of Christians is almost never discussed. Plus, this is misunderstanding. Some in the Jewish community (especially those in America or Europe), think that Gentile and Christian are synonyms. There is an effort to explain the difference between a Gentile (linage) and Christian (faith).

 

Johndb said 'A parenthetical thought... my only gripe with Messianic Jewish movements (plural) is that they tend to mimic the Jews who rejected  Jesus too much. The yarmulke / head covering for males for example is a direct spite of Christian writings by their least favorite Christian (the turn coat Sha'ul b' Tarshish). '

             

That is a gross generalizaton which is false. Messianic Jewish movements are made up of Jewish believers in Jesus, and Gentiles who have joined them. The leadership is Jewish, so you do not have Jews mimicking Jews. You have Jews acting like Jews, the way they were raised. There are some groups who are almost entirely Gentile, who call themselves Messianic (usually never Messianic Judaism), who do mimick Jews. Most Jews find the mimicry insulting as it is a characterization or exaggeration.  No Jewish believer (Messianic Jew) that I know calls or views Paul as a turn coat, nor spite his writings, so that is a false characterization of Messianic Jews.    

 

Last point to reply to this post.

 

The Messianic Jewish Movement is a many splendid thing ranging from unbelief in the deity of Messiah to the unbelief in his resurrection from the dead. The one thing that unites them is the "Jewish" in Messianic Jewish ... Movement, Congregation, faith, approach... etc.

 

And this "Jewishness" in all ways but rejecting Jesus is a flavoring / seasoning / mimicking of the Jews who do not believe in Jesus rather than the first century Jewish people who were either deeply into freedom from Roman oppression, deeply into Torah, oe expecting the Messiah.

 

God bless.

 

 

Messianic Judaism believes and states the Jesus is God. Messianic Judaism believes in the resurrection of the dead. Messianic Jew do not mimick Jews, we are Jews, were raised Jews, and continue to be members of our Jewish families and people. We were born and raised Jewish. You must have a dislike for the Jewish people, and especially Messianic Jews, as you repeatedly make false insulting comments.  

 

 

 

MJAA is the largest Messianic Judaism organization representing the largest group of Messianic Jews:

 

 

THE MJAA Believes: That the BIBLE, consisting of the Tenach (Old Covenant/Testament) and the later writings commonly known as the B'rit Hadasha (New Testament/Covenant), is the only infallible and authoritative word of God. We recognize its divine inspiration, and accept its teachings as our final authority in all matters of faith and practice (Deuteronomy 6:4-9; Proverbs 3:1-6; Psalm 119:89, 105; Isaiah 48:12-16; Romans 8:14-17; II Timothy 2:15, 3:16-17).

What we believe...
 We believe that the Shema, "Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one" (Deuteronomy 6:4), teaches that God is Echad, as so declared: a united one, a composite unity, eternally existent in plural oneness [Genesis 1:1 (Elohim: God); Genesis 1:26 "Let Us make man in Our image"; Genesis 2:24 Adam & Eve were created to be as one flesh (basar echad)], that He is a personal God who created us (Genesis 1 & 2), and that He exists forever in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, as mentioned in Romans 8:14-17 (Father, Spirit, and Messiah - Son) and Matthew 28:18-20 (immersing in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit).
 
 

We believe in the resurrection of both the redeemed and the lost: the former to everlasting life and the latter to eternal separation from God, a state of everlasting punishment (Job 14:14; 19:25-27; Daniel 12:2-3; John 3:36; 11:25-26; Revelations 20:5-6, 10-15; 21:7-8).



#12
JohnDB

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Well, most of these posts are once again putting forward replacement theology.

 

 

 

Johdb said '

 

The Hebrew origin is not with Abraham, Isaac, or Jacob. It is not even with the namesake (Eber, son of Shem, son of Noah). The origin of the things, people, and mind set of all things Hebrew is God. '

 

 

 

 

 

Hebrew comes from the Hebrew word Ivrit, which means 'one who crossed over'. Abrahams name is Ivrahim, one who crossed over the river of Euphrates.

 

Genesis 14:13  Then a fugitive came and told Abram the Hebrew. 

 

So clearly, Abraham is referred to as a Hebrew, one who crossed over to a new land, and his descendents are also referred to as Hebrews.  The following verse refers to Joseph, Jacobs son. It is when Potiphars wife makes a false accusation against Joseph.

 

Genesis 39:14 she called to the men of her household and said to them, “See, he has brought in a Hebrew to us to make sport of us; he came in to me to lie with me, and I screamed. 15 When he heard that I raised my voice and screamed, he left his garment beside me and fled and went outside.” 16 So she left his garment beside her until his master came home. 17 Then she spoke to him with these words, “The Hebrew slave, whom you brought to us, came in to me to make sport of me; 18 and as I raised my voice and screamed, he left his garment beside me and fled outside.” 

 

The following refers to Moses, when he was found as a baby by the  Egyptian caughter of Pharoah.

 

Exodus 2:6 When she opened it, she saw the child, and behold, the boy was crying. And she had pity on him and said, “This is one of the Hebrews’ children.”

 

So, the term Hebrew is used only for Abraham and the descendents of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, in scripture.

 

Johndb said 'The Jewish population in his day were not so universally against Christianity because they hadn't seen it yet. So (in the words of Michael Medved) Jews were about being Jewish then rather than about being non-Christian today.

 

Actually, the Jewish people are not about being non-Christian.  That topic only comes up among the Jewish people when the Jewish people feel under attack by people they view as Christians. In everyday existence, the topic of Christians is almost never discussed. Plus, this is misunderstanding. Some in the Jewish community (especially those in America or Europe), think that Gentile and Christian are synonyms. There is an effort to explain the difference between a Gentile (linage) and Christian (faith).

 

Johndb said 'A parenthetical thought... my only gripe with Messianic Jewish movements (plural) is that they tend to mimic the Jews who rejected  Jesus too much. The yarmulke / head covering for males for example is a direct spite of Christian writings by their least favorite Christian (the turn coat Sha'ul b' Tarshish). '

             

That is a gross generalizaton which is false. Messianic Jewish movements are made up of Jewish believers in Jesus, and Gentiles who have joined them. The leadership is Jewish, so you do not have Jews mimicking Jews. You have Jews acting like Jews, the way they were raised. There are some groups who are almost entirely Gentile, who call themselves Messianic (usually never Messianic Judaism), who do mimick Jews. Most Jews find the mimicry insulting as it is a characterization or exaggeration.  No Jewish believer (Messianic Jew) that I know calls or views Paul as a turn coat, nor spite his writings, so that is a false characterization of Messianic Jews.    

 

Last point to reply to this post.

 

The Messianic Jewish Movement is a many splendid thing ranging from unbelief in the deity of Messiah to the unbelief in his resurrection from the dead. The one thing that unites them is the "Jewish" in Messianic Jewish ... Movement, Congregation, faith, approach... etc.

 

And this "Jewishness" in all ways but rejecting Jesus is a flavoring / seasoning / mimicking of the Jews who do not believe in Jesus rather than the first century Jewish people who were either deeply into freedom from Roman oppression, deeply into Torah, oe expecting the Messiah.

 

God bless.

 

 

Messianic Judaism believes and states the Jesus is God. Messianic Judaism believes in the resurrection of the dead. Messianic Jew do not mimick Jews, we are Jews, were raised Jews, and continue to be members of our Jewish families and people. We were born and raised Jewish. You must have a dislike for the Jewish people, and especially Messianic Jews, as you repeatedly make false insulting comments.  

 

 

 

MJAA is the largest Messianic Judaism organization representing the largest group of Messianic Jews:

 

 

THE MJAA Believes: That the BIBLE, consisting of the Tenach (Old Covenant/Testament) and the later writings commonly known as the B'rit Hadasha (New Testament/Covenant), is the only infallible and authoritative word of God. We recognize its divine inspiration, and accept its teachings as our final authority in all matters of faith and practice (Deuteronomy 6:4-9; Proverbs 3:1-6; Psalm 119:89, 105; Isaiah 48:12-16; Romans 8:14-17; II Timothy 2:15, 3:16-17).

What we believe...
 We believe that the Shema, "Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one" (Deuteronomy 6:4), teaches that God is Echad, as so declared: a united one, a composite unity, eternally existent in plural oneness [Genesis 1:1 (Elohim: God); Genesis 1:26 "Let Us make man in Our image"; Genesis 2:24 Adam & Eve were created to be as one flesh (basar echad)], that He is a personal God who created us (Genesis 1 & 2), and that He exists forever in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, as mentioned in Romans 8:14-17 (Father, Spirit, and Messiah - Son) and Matthew 28:18-20 (immersing in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit).
 
 

We believe in the resurrection of both the redeemed and the lost: the former to everlasting life and the latter to eternal separation from God, a state of everlasting punishment (Job 14:14; 19:25-27; Daniel 12:2-3; John 3:36; 11:25-26; Revelations 20:5-6, 10-15; 21:7-8).

 

 

I have a love for Jewish people (especially Jewish people who believe in the Messiah Yeshua).

 

When I try to teach truth to either I am accused of hating both.

 

I did not say ALL Messianic Jews do not believe in the deity of Jesus I said the range is from those that do to those that do not. See for yourself.

 

http://en.wikipedia....h_organizations

 

That's why I said it is a MANY splendid thing.



#13
JohnDB

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Q, would you not agree that John 17 is Yeshua's High Priestly prayer?



#14
JohnDB

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And in it he prayed repeatedly that we be one even as the Father and he are one...



#15
JohnDB

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Yet we are not one even in the (Christian) or (Messianic) distinctions...

 

Because we have been indoctrinated by the traditions of men masquerading as truth or Church doctrine or Messianic synagogue doctrine rather than the Word of God the Bible being the sole authority as God intended.

 

2 Peter 1:20-21 (KJV)
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

 

Instead we do the modern versions of....

 

Mark 7:7-13 (KJV)
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.



#16
JohnDB

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We are to be one as the Father and Jesus are one.

 

1 Corinthians 12:12 (KJV)
12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

 

1 Corinthians 12:18-20 (KJV)
18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?
20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.

 

 

Galatians 3:24-28 (KJV)
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

One what?

 

Galatians 6:13-16 (KJV)
13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.
14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

 

Now Galatians 3:28 either means you have to give up your Jewishness to be one with the rest who are not Jewish, or along with Galatians 6:16, Romans 2:28-29, Romans 9:6, and other verses that all are Jewish all are Israel all are Judah  (spiritually) in Christ. Not physically (unless you are already physically Jewish) but spiritually. And our shabbot is this entire era of shalom with our Maker as we work on the era of rest as priests who profane the day and are blameless (Matthew 12:5). And the prophetic Jewish feasts (all prophesying Messiah to come and is come and will come again) are the feasts we should keep.



#17
JohnDB

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As far as love for unbelieving Jews, aside from the fact that we love them because God loves them Romans 11:28 and a host of other verses... to learn how to witness to them to spare them not only eternal doom but the Great Tribulation (time of Jacob's Trouble Jeremiah 30:7) which exists to bring the last of the last of the last surviving Jews to cry out to Yehoshua (Hosha Nah) save now as a last of the last resorts since nothing else has worked and nothing else has saved them... those who survive to cry out to him will be blessed but the many many far too many who will die along the way breaks my heart and it broke Jesus' heart as he wept over Jerusalem. His was not indigence but sorrow.

 

Luke 13:34 (KJV)
34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!

 

Luke 19:41-44 (KJV)
41 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,
42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.
43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,
44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

 

Love not hate.



#18
JohnDB

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I am quite rusty at it now but years ago I studied how to find Christ in the Old Testament (Yeshua HaMoshiakh in the Tanakh) to witness to the many Jewish people in my life at that time.

 

Ruach Hakodesh led me in witnessing to Rabbit JT in my old AOL days regarding Isaiah 53 granting the premise that the suffering servant is Yisro'el. Which delighted the good Rabbi. Until I said we had to determine WHICH Israel was the suffering servant for there are many Israels. Jacob, the ancient kingdom, the northern kingdom, the modern state, the children of Israel... and ... one more you might not have considered, Rabbi...

 

"Oh?" he said "do tell."

 

So I did and he had to get off line in a hurry.

 

What I told him (or more to the point what the Spirit told through me was that Yisra'el is an acronym for the words Yish, Sarar (the original root word for Sar) and Elohiym. 

 

HE..........Yish

PRINCE..Sarar

GOD...... Elohiym

 

So I asked him who the ultimate Prince of God would have to be?

 

He had to admit the Messiah is, and as I said he had to leave urgently. My account with AOL came to an end shortly after that as I went into high speed internet with the cable service of that day. I never heard or saw Rabbi JT again. I pray for him in times like these as I remember him... that he learn who is the Messiah that his people suffered so long and so hard for bringing into this dark world. 

 

Love. Not Hate.



#19
JohnDB

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BTW I am so happy your version of Messianic Judaism believes what the Bible teaches, Q!



#20
Qnts2

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We are to be one as the Father and Jesus are one.

 

1 Corinthians 12:12 (KJV)
12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

 

1 Corinthians 12:18-20 (KJV)
18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?
20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.

 

 

Galatians 3:24-28 (KJV)
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

One what?

 

Galatians 6:13-16 (KJV)
13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.
14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

 

Now Galatians 3:28 either means you have to give up your Jewishness to be one with the rest who are not Jewish, or along with Galatians 6:16, Romans 2:28-29, Romans 9:6, and other verses that all are Jewish all are Israel all are Judah  (spiritually) in Christ. Not physically (unless you are already physically Jewish) but spiritually. And our shabbot is this entire era of shalom with our Maker as we work on the era of rest as priests who profane the day and are blameless (Matthew 12:5). And the prophetic Jewish feasts (all prophesying Messiah to come and is come and will come again) are the feasts we should keep.

 

Very simply, we are one new man.

 

Eph 2:15

by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,
 
Believers are something new called one new man in scripture. Not Israel, not Jews. One new man.
 
I have quoted this verse before but here it is again.
 
Deut 32:21 ‘They have made Me jealous with what is not God; They have provoked Me to anger with their idols. So I will make them jealous with those who are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation,
 
At the point of this verse, the children of Israel had disobeyed God so God was telling them of a future occurence. Israel is a nation. Egypt is a nation. Nation in Hebrew is the word Goy, and refers to a people group of a common ancestor. So, there will be a people group who are not a people group. A people group from diverse people groups made up of people who do not have a common ancestor.  
 
What that means is the foolish nation is not a true people group of a common ancestor but made up of diverse people from all different people groups, brought together to form a new nation which is not properly a nation, but one made by God. A group of people from diverse Gentile nations, and some from the nation of Israel, who will make the children of Israel jealous. That is the church. The church will made Israel jealous.
 
The Church is something entirely new. One New Man. The New Testament calls this people a mystery.   
 
1 Cor 10:32 Give no offense either to Jews or to Gentiles or to the church of God;
 
Those who believe in Jesus completed work are called the church of God.
 
Now, there are verses which state there is no Jew, or Greek, male or female. I am still female. I am still a Jew. You are still male and a Gentile. So, what is leading up to those verses? An explanation of how to be saved. In terms of salvation, there is no special status. No Jews or Gentiles, or male or female. All are saved the same way. There is only one way to God and all must come on the narrow path, with no exceptions, whether Jew or Gentile, male or female.
 
It is really that simple. God formed a new man, a new nation made of people of many diverse nations. This new people are not called Israel, as Israel is a nation of people with a common ancestor. There is no such thing as spiritual Israel.
 
I have run into Gentiles who want to claim to be Israel many times before. Some get angry at Jewish people who are children of Israel, both believers and non-believers. But especially Messianic Jews. They get angry because they view being Israel as being specially blessed, and Messianic Jews in there view are twice blessed, being physically and spiritually Israel. That is not scriptural any more then making or imagining a spiritual Israel they can be a part of.
 
As far as Messianic Judaism, which started in the early 1970's. Messianic Judaism believes that Jesus is God. If a Jewish person does not believe Jesus is God, they are not a Messianic Jew. Mormons claim to be Christians, but they deny Jesus is God, so a Mormon is not actually a Christian. You might think there is a range, but there isn't. Not according to Messianic Judaism. Certain variations from the statement of faith of Messianic Judaism means a person is not a Messianic Jew. So, these variations are predominantly Gentile groups which claim to be Israel, but are not, and are actually cultic with really bad doctrines. Messianic Judaism has written doctrinal papers in abundance explaining their rejection of these groups.  Wiki is not the best place to understand what Messianic Judaism is.            





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