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Is Gog/Magog War=Armageddon War

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#1
Spock

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I'm sure this has been discussed, but I couldn't find a thread so here goes.

As of today I believe they are DIFFERENT wars. I believe the Gog War will commence before the 70th week of Daniel. I believe the Armageddon War to be at the end of Daniels 70th week.

I do see similarities, most especially the fact that God is the reason for the victory and not man, but unless I can see more irrefutable evidence, that isn't enough for me to change my thoughts.

I open this thread to see if either I can be persuaded to believe otherwise, or to confirm what I presently believe.

Thanks to all who get involved in a Christ honoring discussion here
Spock out

#2
OakWood

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 I'm not sure, but to add to the confusion we hear Gog and Magog mentioned again after the Millennium. But of course, I believe that this is a different war altogether.

 

There are a number of similarities between the Ezekiel war and the Armageddon war of Revelation, but I'm quite stumped as to whether they are the same war or not. One thing that makes me think that they aren't is because during the build up to Ezekiel war, nations call them out "have you to come to plunder?" This suggests to me that there are free nations on Earth with free voices, therefore they will not be under the thumb of the Beast. Of course, this begs the question, "will the Beast literally rule the entire World, or is the World just a euphemism for the Middle East?"



#3
ARGOSY

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I'm pretty sure Gog and Armageddon are the same war:

 

Ezekiel 39:17 “Son of man, this is what the Sovereign Lord says: Call out to every kind of bird and all the wild animals: ‘Assemble and come together from all around to the sacrifice I am preparing for you, the great sacrifice on the mountains of Israel. There you will eat flesh and drink blood. 18 You will eat the flesh of mighty men and drink the blood of the princes of the earth as if they were rams and lambs, goats and bulls—all of them fattened animals from Bashan. 19 At the sacrifice I am preparing for you, you will eat fat till you are glutted and drink blood till you are drunk. 20 At my table you will eat your fill of horses and riders, mighty men and soldiers of every kind

 

Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birdsflying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

 

Ezekiel 39:Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;

20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.

 

Rev 16:16 Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.

17 The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and out of the temple came a loud voice from the throne, saying, “It is done!” 18 Then there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder and a severe earthquake. No earthquake like it has ever occurred since mankind has been on earth, so tremendous was the quake.

 

..

Both have a great earthquake, both are an attack mainly from the north and the east but including many other nations, both end with a great feast of birds, and the nations knowing the glory of God. Both involve the repentance of Israel after a time of shame in the land of Israel. Both involve a surprise attack.

The only good argument I've heard against it being the same war is that the Ezekiel attack is motivated by material greed. I don't see any contradiction there, Islam hates Israel and so are motivated by that hate, but to draw in other countries to help like Russia, they would have to have agreements how to share the spoils (Meditteranean gas fields, strategic oil pipelines etc.)



#4
ARGOSY

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 I'm not sure, but to add to the confusion we hear Gog and Magog mentioned again after the Millennium. But of course, I believe that this is a different war altogether.

 

There are a number of similarities between the Ezekiel war and the Armageddon war of Revelation, but I'm quite stumped as to whether they are the same war or not. One thing that makes me think that they aren't is because during the build up to Ezekiel war, nations call them out "have you to come to plunder?" This suggests to me that there are free nations on Earth with free voices, therefore they will not be under the thumb of the Beast. Of course, this begs the question, "will the Beast literally rule the entire World, or is the World just a euphemism for the Middle East?"

 

I have a different view on this. I believe Gog is not the beast, Gog represents an alliance between Turkey/Russia and Iran to have a surprise attack on the beast's headquarters in Israel. Yes the nations are free under the beast. It seems that the beast does not have full control , I believe it will be a loose control much like the United Nations, and mainly via religious manipulation. while the beast manipulates the world to persecute Christians, some countries co-operate well (goat nations) and some countries protect Christians to some extent (sheep nations). 

 

This view would explain why the antichrist in Daniel 11 does not control the Jordan/Saudi area, and also explains why he already owns Israel (the glorious land) and is surprised from reports from the north and the east. These 3 facts from Daniel 11 are difficult to explain with the traditional view that the antichrist attacks Israel at Armageddon. 

1) Why would he attack his own territory (the glorious land)

2) as you say, doesn't he rule the world? Why then is he attacking Israel?

3) Why is he surprised by reports from the north and the east if he is Gog attacking from the north and the east?

 

I therefore suggest the antichrist is an Israel based leader, he rules the world loosely , but only controls the direct territory around Israel (3 horns of the ten regions). He is suddenly attacked by Turkey, Russia and Iran and other countries, which is why he is alarmed by reports from the east and north in Daniel 11.



#5
Marilyn C

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Hi Spock,

 

Here are my thoughts on the 2 wars, which I believe are at either end of the Tribulation.

 

 

The two Wars ............ Ez. 38 & 39. Russian Federation.........................................Rev. 16: 14. World War. (Armageddon -> Valley of Jehoshaphat)

 

 

Who initiates................God brings Rosh etc to Israel`s Mountains...........................God brings all the nations to valley of Jehoshaphat. (Joel 3: 2)

 

Who comes against Israel....Russia, Federation, Iran, Libya & Ethiopia.................All Nations. (Rev. 16: 14)

 

Who is the Leader.......The Russian Leader.............................................................The Anti-Christ.

 

What happens.............5/6ths of army wiped out on mountains. (Ez. 39: 2 KJ)........All the armies of the world are destroyed. (Rev. 19: 20 & 21)

 

What happens after....Israel takes 7 years to burn the weapons............................Christ connects with Israel, judges the nations, then the Millennium.

 

 

I think that is quite clear as to the differences.    



#6
ARGOSY

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Hi Spock,

 

Here are my thoughts on the 2 wars, which I believe are at either end of the Tribulation.

 

Hi Marilyn,

 

I feel there are other ways to look at these two wars. Firstly as an ontroduction to Armageddon , we see some background to this final war in the description of the antichrist in Daniel 11. Here we see that the antichrist already owns the glorious land, so he has no need to invade a territory he already owns. We see he is alarmed by reports from the north and the east, which is the main direction of the Armageddon attack (Joel 2 describes the northern army and Revelation describes 200 000 000 soldiers from the east). These clues indicate that the antichrist is not the instigator in the Armageddon/Joel invasion from the north and the east , he is alarmed from these reports, and already owns the glorious land. With this background allow me to re-interpret your summary:

 

 

The two Wars ............ Ez. 38 & 39. Russian Federation with Turkey and "many nations with them)"......................Rev. 16: 14. World War.

Who initiates................God brings Rosh etc and "many nations with them"...........................God brings all the nations to valley of Jehoshaphat. (Joel 3: 2)

Who comes against Israel....Russia, Federation, Iran, Libya & Ethiopia.................All Nations. (Rev. 16: 14)

(there is no contradiction because the Ezekiel war in 38:6 and 38:9 and 39:4 refers to many nations and has no limit on the number of nations)

Who is the Leader of the attack.......The Russian Leader.........The northern army of Joel 2 (Russia is from the north)

In Ezekiel all the armies with Gog are destroyed..................All the armies of the world are destroyed. (Rev. 19: 20 & 21)  (no contradiction, all die in both wars)

Ezekiel 39:3 Then I will strike your bow from your left hand and make your arrows drop from your right hand. On the mountains of Israel you will fall, you and all your troops and the nations with you.

What happens after....Israel takes 7 years to burn the weapons during the first years of the millenium.................Christ connects with Israel, judges the nations, then the Millennium.

(nothing in the text contradicts the weapons being burnt during the millenium)

 

Hopefully you will consider this other way of looking at the Ezekiel war. I strongly believe they are the same war, and believe the matching descriptions as per my earlier post add to this view.



#7
Spock

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Time out

I just want to interject this one thought.

I still am not convinced this kingdom rule of antichrist is GLOBAL. I still believe until convinced otherwise that it is REGIONAL, just like all the other beast kingdoms before this final one. Their rule was ONLY surrounding the Middle East that obviously included the land of Israel.

#8
Spock

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Where do people get Russia out of Ezekiel?

Rosh?????

Rosh has almost exclusively meant "chief" or "head" (not the name of a place)

However, maybe someone had an agenda for this line of thinking. (Russia =bad guys in Ezekiel)

Look at this if interested.

http://www.prophezin...d=42&Itemid=118

#9
Marilyn C

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Hi Spock,

 

Regarding `Rosh,`  Russian people call themselves this. Also in Joel 2: 20 you will see this `northern army,` - from the northern quarters, far north. This is the same war as Ezekiel talks about.

 

Just reading Argosy`s comments & I would point out that Joel 2 war is not Armageddon but the Russian war as verse 2: 30 shows that more events have to happen before Armageddon in Ch. 3. 



#10
OneLight

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Before I read through the thread, Spock, if you believe the Gog/Magog was is before the 70th week, why then does John refer to it at the end of the Millennium?

Revelation 20:1-10

Satan Bound 1,000 Years
 

Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.


The Saints Reign with Christ 1,000 Years
 

And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.


Satanic Rebellion Crushed
 

Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.



#11
Spock

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One light,

I always thought there were two of these battles. One just before second coming and one at end of millennium reign of Christ when satan is loosed on earth again for one last hurrah.

As to why they are BOTH called Gog and Magog, beats me.

If Gog is the antichrist, I know he won't be there (I do not believe antichrist is satan).

Magog is an area in present day Turkey.

It seems to me in the Rev 20 passage Gog and Magog mean something different, like the four corners of the earth.

#12
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Gog and Magog is an expression used to include the limits of heathen territory and or status of existence.

 

Gog means high mountain. Magog is associated with the clan of Tubal who was the ruler of sea merchants in ancient times, and the term refers to the seas or sea.

 

A mountain in prophecy is a centralized or controlled population, like a kingdom or power, and the seas represent the nations, peoples populations in general.

 

The organised people under rule and the unorganized masses.

 

Onelight already showed that these are bought to view at the end of the millennium. 

 

The expressions in Ezekiel refer to the then known extent of the heathen cultures and kingdoms surrounding Israel. And the manner which God deals with them is the manner which He will deal with those in the time after the millennium.

Hence Revelation borrows from these images.

 

Armageddon is another issue before or at the time of the return of Christ involving the entire world except the faithful.

 

The time after the millennium also only involves all the world except the saved.

 

Gog and Magog in Rev do not represent regional skirmishes and ideologies, nor individuals whether leaders or followers, but the whole scene of the unsaved, who yet again attempt to conquer the New Jerusalem. 



#13
Spock

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Good stuff Paradox. Thanks for the read.

PS I'm loving this fellowship with my mates down under.

#14
Marilyn C

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A good read Paradox.



#15
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Kool



#16
ARGOSY

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One light,

I always thought there were two of these battles. One just before second coming and one at end of millennium reign of Christ when satan is loosed on earth again for one last hurrah.

As to why they are BOTH called Gog and Magog, beats me.

If Gog is the antichrist, I know he won't be there (I do not believe antichrist is satan).

Magog is an area in present day Turkey.

It seems to me in the Rev 20 passage Gog and Magog mean something different, like the four corners of the earth.

 

I believe Gog represents the North. (one of the 4 corners of earth). Just like there were many wars in the bible involving Egypt, many involving the Philistines, so we have two wars involving the   North.  (Russia/Turkey)   The fact that this region is only mentioned in two wars when other regions are mentioned many times involving many war is because they are a little further away from Israel than Egypt/Babylon/Philistines etc.
 



#17
ARGOSY

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Hi Spock,

 

Here are my thoughts on the 2 wars, which I believe are at either end of the Tribulation.

 

 

The two Wars ............ Ez. 38 & 39. Russian Federation.........................................Rev. 16: 14. World War. (Armageddon -> Valley of Jehoshaphat)

 

 

Who initiates................God brings Rosh etc to Israel`s Mountains...........................God brings all the nations to valley of Jehoshaphat. (Joel 3: 2)

 

 

Hi Marilyn,

 

Referring to your post 9 where you say Joel 2 is not Armageddon, you clearly do relate Joel 3 to Armageddon as per the above quote from an earlier post of yours.

 

Looking at Joel 2 and Joel 3 I would assume most readers would associate them together:

Joel 2:  And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.

Joel 3:  For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

 

The Joel 3 gathering of all the nations (that you already associate with Armageddon) occurs in the days and in that time of Joel 2

Also Joel 2 is described as "the day of the Lord", normally a phrase that relates to the second coming.

I believe the dramatic language, the size of the Northern army, and the restoration of Israel, and the fact that the Joel 3 judgment occurs at the time of the Joel 2 war according to the wording, all point to the Joel 2 attack being a day of the Lord/second coming event.

 

And of course Ezekiel 39 and Joel 2 tie up so well, both with the northern army attack, the repentance of Israel, and the restoration of Israel, so although we can all read anything into biblical prophecy, I feel its more obvious that the Northern army Ezekiel war is Armageddon which is associated with the northern army Joel war.



#18
Salty

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I'm sure this has been discussed, but I couldn't find a thread so here goes.

As of today I believe they are DIFFERENT wars. I believe the Gog War will commence before the 70th week of Daniel. I believe the Armageddon War to be at the end of Daniels 70th week.

I do see similarities, most especially the fact that God is the reason for the victory and not man, but unless I can see more irrefutable evidence, that isn't enough for me to change my thoughts.

I open this thread to see if either I can be persuaded to believe otherwise, or to confirm what I presently believe.

Thanks to all who get involved in a Christ honoring discussion here
Spock out

 

All one need do is read to the end of the Ezekiel 38 & 39 chapters, in toto, for events are given that will ONLY occur with Christ's second coming. It's easy really.

 

But if one needs more, how difficult is it to see that nation alignment of Ezekiel 38 only lacks Turkey's joining today?

 

That Ezekiel prophecy of their defeat also aligns with the "supper of the great God" in Revelation with the fowls and beasts being told to come feast. But one of the strongest clues is the gathering of the "house of Israel" (ten tribes) back to the holy lands, which in Ezekiel's day was separated from the "house of Judah". As a matter of fact, the previous Ezekiel 37 chapter was all about that. And with the Ezekiel 40 chapter we're shown the Millennium temple and Christ's future reign. So from Ezekiel 38 & 39 are simply parenthetical chapters in between the day of Christ's coming and the Millennium. Our Heavenly Father is showing us there how Satan's host on earth will be defeated just prior to Christ's thousand years reign.



#19
OakWood

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Where do people get Russia out of Ezekiel?

Rosh?????

Rosh has almost exclusively meant "chief" or "head" (not the name of a place)

However, maybe someone had an agenda for this line of thinking. (Russia =bad guys in Ezekiel)

Look at this if interested.

http://www.prophezin...d=42&Itemid=118

 

Hi Spock, I believe I mentioned this in some other thread that Rosh did not necessarily mean Russia and that is just an assumption that people have made. However, I wasn't aware that it meant 'chief' or 'head' so thanks for that snippet of info.



#20
Spock

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Kool


Way koooool.




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