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Matthew 24, for Jews or for Christians?

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#1
tevans9129

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Matthew 24

 

Many people try to make Matthew 24 about the church/Christians/believers but I do not believe they can make a convincing argument with scripture for that assertion but I am willing to be proven wrong, if, you have something more than just your opinions and can answer my questions, all of them, can you?

 

24:1  Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him.

 

2 And He said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down."

 

1) A Jewish Rabbi, talking to His Jewish disciples about the Jewish temple, does anyone see the church in there?

 

Jewish = 1     church = 0

 

3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

 

 

2) Jews sitting on the Mount of Olives and the disciples are asking about the destruction of their temple when it will happen, how does the church figure into this?

 

Jewish = 2     church = 0

 

4 And Jesus answered and said to them, " See to it that no one misleads you.

 

5 "For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will mislead many.

 

6 "You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end.

 

7 "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes.

 

8 " But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs.

 

3) Do you see any reference to the church in those verses? No, neither do I.

 

Jewish = 3     church = 0

 

9 " Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.

 

4) Is Jesus still talking to the Jews, did they suffer tribulation, death and hatred by all nations because of Jesus’ name? Can that be said about the church, is the church hated by all nations because of Jesus’ name?

 

Jewish = 4     church = 0

 

 

10 "At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.

 

11 "Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.

 

 

5) At that time, what time? The answer is a few verses down. Are prophets associated more with the church or with the Jews? How can a false prophet cause the church to be mislead?

 

Jewish = 5     church = 0

 

 

12 "Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold.

 

13 " But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

 

 

6) Can you quote scripture that states the church must endure to the end to be saved? Is a person saved when they accept Christ and are they part of the church at that time?

 

 

Jewish = 6     church = 0

 

14 "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

 

 

7) Would you say that is a good hint as to when the end will come?

 

 

15 "Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place ( let the reader understand),

 

 

8) Abomination of desolation standing in the holy place spoken through Daniel, what does that have to do with the church? Since Jesus specifically referenced the prophet Daniel and the Jewish temple, so would this be important to the church or to the Jews?

 

8a) Does Daniel 9:27 and Matthew 24:15 make the timing of the GT perfectly clear as well as who it pertains to?

 

Jewish = 7     church = 0

 

 

16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.

 

 

9) Is the church only in Judea and why would it need to flee to the mountains? What about the church in other locales, to where would they flee?  They would not, this is clearly addressed to the Jews of Judea which in the time this was written referred to Israel.

 

9a) This is not the first time that the Jews had to flee Jedia.

 

Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights in the day of battle. On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south. You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him. (Zechariah 14:3-5)

 

9b) Is there anything whatsoever to do with believers?

 

Jewish = 8     church = 0

 

 

17 " Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house.

 

10) How many believers do you know that use their “housetops”, in comparison to the custom of many homes in Israel in Biblical times, that use the housetop as a patio or porch?  

 

Jewish = 9     church = 0

 

 

18 " Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak.

 

 

19 "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!

 

 

11) Can you explain how either of these admonishments can apply to believers?

 

Jewish = 10   church = 0

 

 

20 "But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath.

 

 

12) Believers cover most of the world so why would it make any difference to those in Australia if it was winter in Judea? The mountains in Judea can be treacherous in the winter so it could make a huge difference for them.

 

12a) Why would believers be concerned about fleeing on the Sabbath? Whereas, Jews were forbidden to go more than 1000 paces on the Sabbath. Does this make sense for believers or, for Jews?

 

 

Jewish = 11   church = 0

 

21 "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.

 

 

13) Daniel 9:24-27, Matthew 24 and Revelation 6 -18, very clearly establishes the time frame for the GT as spoken of by Jesus. Matthew 24 is about the Jews in the “last days” and has nothing whatsoever to do with believers other than informational purposes as to God’s plan for His chosen people. If those who believe differently can provide plausible, scriptural, as it is written, answers to the questions asked, you would convince me that I am wrong in my interpretation.

 

 

 


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#2
Omegaman

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It is true that much of Matt 24 had a Judeo-centric context. Geographically we see Jerusalem, the mount of Olives, Judea mentioned, and of course the disciples are Jews.

 

However, not only is Jesus speaking to Jew, He is speaking to His disciples, the first of His church.

 

 9“Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name10At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. 11“Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.12“Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold. 13“But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. 14This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come. 15Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION   . . .

 

Now, who better fits? Is it the Jews who are killed for Jesus name? Christians bear the anme of Christ, non Christian Jews do not. Are these disciples going to see the abomination of desolation? What you believe about that, depends on the predjudices you come to the passage with.

 

If you come to the passage with 19th Century dispensational doctrine, that sees clear cut Jews / Gentiles / Church / Ages separations, then of course you will see it the way you are.

 

What I see, when viewing it through my particular, non-dispensational glasses, is that the people who are gathered up to be with Jesus, are the Elect, Jesus come in the clouds visible, with Angels, a Trumper, a Shout etc. This sounds stunningly familiar to other passages. While you may be able to detect secret invisible comings, and silent shouts and silent trumpets etc, my imagination is not that vivid.

 

You have your little Jewish/Church scorecard, because you assume the church is not pictured, and are arguing from silence. The question here is basically, "Who are the Elect. You can make a case for the Elect being the Jews, because that is of course Biblical. It is equally true, the the Church are refereed to as the Elect, through most of the New Testament.

 

It is not Matt 24 which determines who is who, it is Matt 24 that is the starting place for investigation, and it is a rich starting place, just don't omit the manifold passages that would seem to make better sense with a church raptured after the trib scenario, and be particulary careful, not to read into context, an imminent return of Christ that is not actually expressed. The end times as a whole, are imminent, but His return had/has things that must happen first. Matt 24 lists many of them as long as you do not force a pretrib understanding on it.

 

I was just (coincidentally) reading in a book called "the Rapture Question" by the great pre-trib theologian John F. Walvoord, He has a chapter there called 50 arguments for pretribulationism. Sadly, as great a mind as Dr. Walvoord is, he really fails in this chapter. I agree you might call them arguments, but many of them are not only not proofs, they are not even evidences, The are assertions of his, made from his assumptions and not from the texts themselves. The are sometimes arguments agains other positions, like mid-tribulationism, and some of them are even, dare I say it, lies about church history of doctrine, that he himself contradicts. I don't get it.

 

I invite you to come to the chat trivia event (in the calendar section) scheduled for Sept 5th, to see how well you can answer questions on this topic, which will be limited to what the text actually says, not about what people suppose the texts mean, you might win a prize, if you are good at it.


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#3
justfaith

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Matthew 24

 

Many people try to make Matthew 24 about the church/Christians/believers but I do not believe they can make a convincing argument with scripture for that assertion but I am willing to be proven wrong, if, you have something more than just your opinions and can answer my questions, all of them, can you?

 

24:1  Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him.

 

2 And He said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down."

 

1) A Jewish Rabbi, talking to His Jewish disciples about the Jewish temple, does anyone see the church in there?

 

Jewish = 1     church = 0

 

3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

 

 

2) Jews sitting on the Mount of Olives and the disciples are asking about the destruction of their temple when it will happen, how does the church figure into this?

 

Jewish = 2     church = 0

 

4 And Jesus answered and said to them, " See to it that no one misleads you.

 

5 "For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will mislead many.

 

6 "You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end.

 

7 "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes.

 

8 " But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs.

 

3) Do you see any reference to the church in those verses? No, neither do I.

 

Jewish = 3     church = 0

 

9 " Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.

 

4) Is Jesus still talking to the Jews, did they suffer tribulation, death and hatred by all nations because of Jesus’ name? Can that be said about the church, is the church hated by all nations because of Jesus’ name?

 

Jewish = 4     church = 0

 

 

10 "At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.

 

11 "Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.

 

 

5) At that time, what time? The answer is a few verses down. Are prophets associated more with the church or with the Jews? How can a false prophet cause the church to be mislead?

 

Jewish = 5     church = 0

 

 

12 "Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold.

 

13 " But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

 

 

6) Can you quote scripture that states the church must endure to the end to be saved? Is a person saved when they accept Christ and are they part of the church at that time?

 

 

Jewish = 6     church = 0

 

14 "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

 

 

7) Would you say that is a good hint as to when the end will come?

 

 

15 "Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place ( let the reader understand),

 

 

8) Abomination of desolation standing in the holy place spoken through Daniel, what does that have to do with the church? Since Jesus specifically referenced the prophet Daniel and the Jewish temple, so would this be important to the church or to the Jews?

 

8a) Does Daniel 9:27 and Matthew 24:15 make the timing of the GT perfectly clear as well as who it pertains to?

 

Jewish = 7     church = 0

 

 

16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.

 

 

9) Is the church only in Judea and why would it need to flee to the mountains? What about the church in other locales, to where would they flee?  They would not, this is clearly addressed to the Jews of Judea which in the time this was written referred to Israel.

 

9a) This is not the first time that the Jews had to flee Jedia.

 

Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights in the day of battle. On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south. You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him. (Zechariah 14:3-5)

 

9b) Is there anything whatsoever to do with believers?

 

Jewish = 8     church = 0

 

 

17 " Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house.

 

10) How many believers do you know that use their “housetops”, in comparison to the custom of many homes in Israel in Biblical times, that use the housetop as a patio or porch?  

 

Jewish = 9     church = 0

 

 

18 " Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak.

 

 

19 "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!

 

 

11) Can you explain how either of these admonishments can apply to believers?

 

Jewish = 10   church = 0

 

 

20 "But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath.

 

 

12) Believers cover most of the world so why would it make any difference to those in Australia if it was winter in Judea? The mountains in Judea can be treacherous in the winter so it could make a huge difference for them.

 

12a) Why would believers be concerned about fleeing on the Sabbath? Whereas, Jews were forbidden to go more than 1000 paces on the Sabbath. Does this make sense for believers or, for Jews?

 

 

Jewish = 11   church = 0

 

21 "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.

 

 

13) Daniel 9:24-27, Matthew 24 and Revelation 6 -18, very clearly establishes the time frame for the GT as spoken of by Jesus. Matthew 24 is about the Jews in the “last days” and has nothing whatsoever to do with believers other than informational purposes as to God’s plan for His chosen people. If those who believe differently can provide plausible, scriptural, as it is written, answers to the questions asked, you would convince me that I am wrong in my interpretation.

 

And what I say unto you I say unto allWatch.
 
 
Who are the elect ? The Jews or Gentiles or the church  thanks 

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#4
Jesse

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Matthew 24

 

Many people try to make Matthew 24 about the church/Christians/believers but I do not believe they can make a convincing argument with scripture for that assertion but I am willing to be proven wrong, if, you have something more than just your opinions and can answer my questions, all of them, can you?

 

24:1  Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him.

 

2 And He said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down."

 

1) A Jewish Rabbi, talking to His Jewish disciples about the Jewish temple, does anyone see the church in there?

 

Jewish = 1     church = 0

 

3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

 

 

2) Jews sitting on the Mount of Olives and the disciples are asking about the destruction of their temple when it will happen, how does the church figure into this?

 

Jewish = 2     church = 0

 

4 And Jesus answered and said to them, " See to it that no one misleads you.

 

5 "For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will mislead many.

 

6 "You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end.

 

7 "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes.

 

8 " But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs.

 

3) Do you see any reference to the church in those verses? No, neither do I.

 

Jewish = 3     church = 0

 

9 " Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.

 

4) Is Jesus still talking to the Jews, did they suffer tribulation, death and hatred by all nations because of Jesus’ name? Can that be said about the church, is the church hated by all nations because of Jesus’ name?

 

Jewish = 4     church = 0

 

 

10 "At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.

 

11 "Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.

 

 

5) At that time, what time? The answer is a few verses down. Are prophets associated more with the church or with the Jews? How can a false prophet cause the church to be mislead?

 

Jewish = 5     church = 0

 

 

12 "Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold.

 

13 " But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

 

 

6) Can you quote scripture that states the church must endure to the end to be saved? Is a person saved when they accept Christ and are they part of the church at that time?

 

 

Jewish = 6     church = 0

 

14 "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

 

 

7) Would you say that is a good hint as to when the end will come?

 

 

15 "Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place ( let the reader understand),

 

 

8) Abomination of desolation standing in the holy place spoken through Daniel, what does that have to do with the church? Since Jesus specifically referenced the prophet Daniel and the Jewish temple, so would this be important to the church or to the Jews?

 

8a) Does Daniel 9:27 and Matthew 24:15 make the timing of the GT perfectly clear as well as who it pertains to?

 

Jewish = 7     church = 0

 

 

16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.

 

 

9) Is the church only in Judea and why would it need to flee to the mountains? What about the church in other locales, to where would they flee?  They would not, this is clearly addressed to the Jews of Judea which in the time this was written referred to Israel.

 

9a) This is not the first time that the Jews had to flee Jedia.

 

Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights in the day of battle. On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south. You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him. (Zechariah 14:3-5)

 

9b) Is there anything whatsoever to do with believers?

 

Jewish = 8     church = 0

 

 

17 " Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house.

 

10) How many believers do you know that use their “housetops”, in comparison to the custom of many homes in Israel in Biblical times, that use the housetop as a patio or porch?  

 

Jewish = 9     church = 0

 

 

18 " Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak.

 

 

19 "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!

 

 

11) Can you explain how either of these admonishments can apply to believers?

 

Jewish = 10   church = 0

 

 

20 "But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath.

 

 

12) Believers cover most of the world so why would it make any difference to those in Australia if it was winter in Judea? The mountains in Judea can be treacherous in the winter so it could make a huge difference for them.

 

12a) Why would believers be concerned about fleeing on the Sabbath? Whereas, Jews were forbidden to go more than 1000 paces on the Sabbath. Does this make sense for believers or, for Jews?

 

 

Jewish = 11   church = 0

 

21 "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.

 

 

13) Daniel 9:24-27, Matthew 24 and Revelation 6 -18, very clearly establishes the time frame for the GT as spoken of by Jesus. Matthew 24 is about the Jews in the “last days” and has nothing whatsoever to do with believers other than informational purposes as to God’s plan for His chosen people. If those who believe differently can provide plausible, scriptural, as it is written, answers to the questions asked, you would convince me that I am wrong in my interpretation.

 

And what I say unto you I say unto allWatch.
 
 
Who are the elect ? The Jews or Gentiles or the church  thanks 

 

 

Yes,Jesus was speaking to his flock present and future.

The jews have taken an opposite side to Jesus. 

But not all christians are the elect. There are only 144k elect.

 

jesse.


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#5
tevans9129

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It is true that much of Matt 24 had a Judeo-centric context. Geographically we see Jerusalem, the mount of Olives, Judea mentioned, and of course the disciples are Jews.

 

However, not only is Jesus speaking to Jew, He is speaking to His disciples, the first of His church.

 

 9“Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name10At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. 11“Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.12“Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold. 13“But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. 14This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come. 15Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION   . . .

 

Now, who better fits? Is it the Jews who are killed for Jesus name? Christians bear the anme of Christ, non Christian Jews do not. Are these disciples going to see the abomination of desolation? What you believe about that, depends on the predjudices you come to the passage with.

 

If you come to the passage with 19th Century dispensational doctrine, that sees clear cut Jews / Gentiles / Church / Ages separations, then of course you will see it the way you are.

 

What I see, when viewing it through my particular, non-dispensational glasses, is that the people who are gathered up to be with Jesus, are the Elect, Jesus come in the clouds visible, with Angels, a Trumper, a Shout etc. This sounds stunningly familiar to other passages. While you may be able to detect secret invisible comings, and silent shouts and silent trumpets etc, my imagination is not that vivid.

 

You have your little Jewish/Church scorecard, because you assume the church is not pictured, and are arguing from silence. The question here is basically, "Who are the Elect. You can make a case for the Elect being the Jews, because that is of course Biblical. It is equally true, the the Church are refereed to as the Elect, through most of the New Testament.

 

It is not Matt 24 which determines who is who, it is Matt 24 that is the starting place for investigation, and it is a rich starting place, just don't omit the manifold passages that would seem to make better sense with a church raptured after the trib scenario, and be particulary careful, not to read into context, an imminent return of Christ that is not actually expressed. The end times as a whole, are imminent, but His return had/has things that must happen first. Matt 24 lists many of them as long as you do not force a pretrib understanding on it.

 

I was just (coincidentally) reading in a book called "the Rapture Question" by the great pre-trib theologian John F. Walvoord, He has a chapter there called 50 arguments for pretribulationism. Sadly, as great a mind as Dr. Walvoord is, he really fails in this chapter. I agree you might call them arguments, but many of them are not only not proofs, they are not even evidences, The are assertions of his, made from his assumptions and not from the texts themselves. The are sometimes arguments agains other positions, like mid-tribulationism, and some of them are even, dare I say it, lies about church history of doctrine, that he himself contradicts. I don't get it.

 

I invite you to come to the chat trivia event (in the calendar section) scheduled for Sept 5th, to see how well you can answer questions on this topic, which will be limited to what the text actually says, not about what people suppose the texts mean, you might win a prize, if you are good at it.

 

Hello Omeganman,

 

1) Thank you for your interesting comments. However, you did not answer the questions asked, therefore, I still like my argument better and I see no reason to make any adjustments. I am going to take the liberty to paste in my comments from another posts. Not to be confrontational,  just stating my perspective.

 

I approach a discussion just as is done in an investigation, in a classroom or in a court of law. Truth and facts, as well as the knowledge of the subject, is determined by asking questions and getting answers that can be verified. If the person cannot, or refuses to answer questions, their credibility and/or knowledge of the subject is extremely suspect IMV.


  • 1

#6
tevans9129

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Matthew 24

 

Many people try to make Matthew 24 about the church/Christians/believers but I do not believe they can make a convincing argument with scripture for that assertion but I am willing to be proven wrong, if, you have something more than just your opinions and can answer my questions, all of them, can you?

 

24:1  Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him.

 

2 And He said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down."

 

1) A Jewish Rabbi, talking to His Jewish disciples about the Jewish temple, does anyone see the church in there?

 

Jewish = 1     church = 0

 

3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

 

 

2) Jews sitting on the Mount of Olives and the disciples are asking about the destruction of their temple when it will happen, how does the church figure into this?

 

Jewish = 2     church = 0

 

4 And Jesus answered and said to them, " See to it that no one misleads you.

 

5 "For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will mislead many.

 

6 "You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end.

 

7 "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes.

 

8 " But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs.

 

3) Do you see any reference to the church in those verses? No, neither do I.

 

Jewish = 3     church = 0

 

9 " Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.

 

4) Is Jesus still talking to the Jews, did they suffer tribulation, death and hatred by all nations because of Jesus’ name? Can that be said about the church, is the church hated by all nations because of Jesus’ name?

 

Jewish = 4     church = 0

 

 

10 "At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.

 

11 "Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.

 

 

5) At that time, what time? The answer is a few verses down. Are prophets associated more with the church or with the Jews? How can a false prophet cause the church to be mislead?

 

Jewish = 5     church = 0

 

 

12 "Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold.

 

13 " But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

 

 

6) Can you quote scripture that states the church must endure to the end to be saved? Is a person saved when they accept Christ and are they part of the church at that time?

 

 

Jewish = 6     church = 0

 

14 "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

 

 

7) Would you say that is a good hint as to when the end will come?

 

 

15 "Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place ( let the reader understand),

 

 

8) Abomination of desolation standing in the holy place spoken through Daniel, what does that have to do with the church? Since Jesus specifically referenced the prophet Daniel and the Jewish temple, so would this be important to the church or to the Jews?

 

8a) Does Daniel 9:27 and Matthew 24:15 make the timing of the GT perfectly clear as well as who it pertains to?

 

Jewish = 7     church = 0

 

 

16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.

 

 

9) Is the church only in Judea and why would it need to flee to the mountains? What about the church in other locales, to where would they flee?  They would not, this is clearly addressed to the Jews of Judea which in the time this was written referred to Israel.

 

9a) This is not the first time that the Jews had to flee Jedia.

 

Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights in the day of battle. On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south. You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him. (Zechariah 14:3-5)

 

9b) Is there anything whatsoever to do with believers?

 

Jewish = 8     church = 0

 

 

17 " Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house.

 

10) How many believers do you know that use their “housetops”, in comparison to the custom of many homes in Israel in Biblical times, that use the housetop as a patio or porch?  

 

Jewish = 9     church = 0

 

 

18 " Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak.

 

 

19 "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!

 

 

11) Can you explain how either of these admonishments can apply to believers?

 

Jewish = 10   church = 0

 

 

20 "But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath.

 

 

12) Believers cover most of the world so why would it make any difference to those in Australia if it was winter in Judea? The mountains in Judea can be treacherous in the winter so it could make a huge difference for them.

 

12a) Why would believers be concerned about fleeing on the Sabbath? Whereas, Jews were forbidden to go more than 1000 paces on the Sabbath. Does this make sense for believers or, for Jews?

 

 

Jewish = 11   church = 0

 

21 "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.

 

 

13) Daniel 9:24-27, Matthew 24 and Revelation 6 -18, very clearly establishes the time frame for the GT as spoken of by Jesus. Matthew 24 is about the Jews in the “last days” and has nothing whatsoever to do with believers other than informational purposes as to God’s plan for His chosen people. If those who believe differently can provide plausible, scriptural, as it is written, answers to the questions asked, you would convince me that I am wrong in my interpretation.

 

And what I say unto you I say unto allWatch.
 
 
Who are the elect ? The Jews or Gentiles or the church  thanks 

 

 

 

I would be thrilled to answer your questions…..just as soon as you answer the ones in my post. To give you a hint, Replacement Theologians cannot prove their position with scripture without making God out to be a liar and untrustworthy, IMO.  


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#7
Jesse

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The abomination of desolation will be the new temple; when it is set up.

The false prophet will claim that for himself,and will sit in the temple as god.

But first the dome sitting on the foundation must be destroyed. That will cause the 3rd ww.

 

jesse.


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#8
tevans9129

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Yes,Jesus was speaking to his flock present and future.

The jews have taken an opposite side to Jesus. 

But not all christians are the elect. There are only 144k elect.

 

jesse.  

 

 

 

Hi Jesse, am I correct in taking you to be a JW? If so, a couple of years ago, a JW elder who had relatives that worked in the WTS headquarters, approached me about having a discussion to see who could prove their position with scripture. He requested that we use emails to conduct the discussion, which we did for several months. He dropped out without a word when I presented my scriptural evidence that the Jews are still God's chosen people and he could not answer my questions.

 

How about you, are you confident that you can prove that your church has replaced the Jew's in God's plan? If interested, I will agree to answer all of your questions, address every point and provide scripture, just as it is written, for evidence, if, you will agree to respond in like manner. What say you?

 

BTW, why did you choose to not answer the questions in my post? If there are too many, feel free to take them one at a time.


Edited by tevans9129, 19 August 2014 - 02:44 PM.

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#9
tevans9129

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The abomination of desolation will be the new temple; when it is set up.

The false prophet will claim that for himself,and will sit in the temple as god.

But first the dome sitting on the foundation must be destroyed. That will cause the 3rd ww.

 

jesse.

 

Would I be out of line Jesse in saying that you apparently do not believe that Jesus said what He meant and He means what He said?

 

If you have no interest in answering questions and providing scriptural proof, then I accept your comments as your opinions only, not supported with scripture, is that fair?


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#10
Jesse

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Yes,Jesus was speaking to his flock present and future.

The jews have taken an opposite side to Jesus. 

But not all christians are the elect. There are only 144k elect.

 

jesse.  

 

 

 

Hi Jesse, am I correct in taking you to be a JW? If so, a couple of years ago, a JW elder who had relatives that worked in the WTS headquarters, approached me about having a discussion to see who could prove their position with scripture. He requested that we use emails to conduct the discussion, which we did for several months. He dropped out without a word when I presented my scriptural evidence that the Jews are still God's chosen people and he could not answer my questions.

 

How about you, are you confident that you can prove that your church has replaced the Jew's in God's plan? If interested, I will agree to answer all of your questions, address every point and provide scripture, just as it is written, for evidence, if, you will agree to respond in like manner. What say you?

 

BTW, why did you choose to not answer the questions in my post? If there are too many, feel free to take them one at a time.

 

 

Tevans.9129.

 

No, I dont belong to any denomination,and  I am totally opposed to jw's teachings.

Can you state your question again? I must have missed it ,please.

 

jesse.


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#11
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Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

 

There are 3 questions that the disciples are asking Jesus about.  That's three topics.  So you need to lean on Him to discern which answer He is giving them to which question, because they do not have to be in chronological order, and indeed, they are not in chronological order.

 

The first question was about when that Temple will be thrown down.

 

The second is about the sign of His coming;  not His actual coming but the sign leading up to His coming.

 

And then the end of the world.

 

So His answers to the first question would be about the Jews as far as the Temple is concern, but the rest is in relation to His disciples as it pertains to them personally and thus to the church.


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#12
tevans9129

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Yes,Jesus was speaking to his flock present and future.

The jews have taken an opposite side to Jesus. 

But not all christians are the elect. There are only 144k elect.

 

jesse.  

 

 

 

Hi Jesse, am I correct in taking you to be a JW? If so, a couple of years ago, a JW elder who had relatives that worked in the WTS headquarters, approached me about having a discussion to see who could prove their position with scripture. He requested that we use emails to conduct the discussion, which we did for several months. He dropped out without a word when I presented my scriptural evidence that the Jews are still God's chosen people and he could not answer my questions.

 

How about you, are you confident that you can prove that your church has replaced the Jew's in God's plan? If interested, I will agree to answer all of your questions, address every point and provide scripture, just as it is written, for evidence, if, you will agree to respond in like manner. What say you?

 

BTW, why did you choose to not answer the questions in my post? If there are too many, feel free to take them one at a time.

 

 

Tevans.9129.

 

No, I dont belong to any denomination,and  I am totally opposed to jw's teachings.

Can you state your question again? I must have missed it ,please.

 

jesse.

 

 

OK, thanks for clearing that up for me Jesse as for the questions, they are all in my first post of the thread. There are many so if you would prefer to address them one at time, unless more are needed for continunity, that would be OK by me....actually, it would be prefered since most that post in this forum do not seem to answer the question in the space that I leave for them.


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#13
tevans9129

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Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

 

There are 3 questions that the disciples are asking Jesus about.  That's three topics.  So you need to lean on Him to discern which answer He is giving them to which question, because they do not have to be in chronological order, and indeed, they are not in chronological order.

 

The first question was about when that Temple will be thrown down.

 

The second is about the sign of His coming;  not His actual coming but the sign leading up to His coming.

 

And then the end of the world.

 

So His answers to the first question would be about the Jews as far as the Temple is concern, but the rest is in relation to His disciples as it pertains to them personally and thus to the church.

 

Hello and thanks for your comments. I mostly agree with them with the exception of the last one.

 

I am more interested in answers to the questions that I asked, not the ones the disciples asked as that can be another topic.


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#14
Jesse

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Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

 

There are 3 questions that the disciples are asking Jesus about.  That's three topics.  So you need to lean on Him to discern which answer He is giving them to which question, because they do not have to be in chronological order, and indeed, they are not in chronological order.

 

The first question was about when that Temple will be thrown down.

 

The second is about the sign of His coming;  not His actual coming but the sign leading up to His coming.

 

And then the end of the world.

 

So His answers to the first question would be about the Jews as far as the Temple is concern, but the rest is in relation to His disciples as it pertains to them personally and thus to the church.

 

Hobbes.

 

Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away,

                ***and the abomination that maketh desolate set up***,

there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.(3/half yrs).

Daniel 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

    (3/half yrs plus 45days).

 

The word is SET UP Hobbes.(build)(erected).

 

jesse.

 


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#15
Hobbes

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Hi tevans9129,

 

I believe looking at Matthew 24th chapter with Jesus as a Jewish Rabbi is a bit off to me.

 

John 8:30 As he spake these words, many believed on him. 31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. 33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? 34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. 35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. 36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

 

Jesus wasn't preaching Judaism.  What He was preaching is the Good News to man and everything He has said has to be in relation to those that believe in Him;  the church.  His disciples were first called christians at Antioch:  Acts 11:26

 

Anyway:  keeping everything He has said limited only to the Jewish people is forgetting spiritual Israel.

 

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

 Matthew 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. 6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. 9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

 

Jesus was addressing His disciples and thus applies to all believers that would be His disciples.  Everything that has been said describes leading up to the times we are living in now.  When would anyone know about earthquakes in divers places, but the technology now exist where we would know about earthquakes in the sea.

 

Then note the last verse 14 and remember the angel in Revelations 14 that is to give the everlasting gospel to all the world, followed by an angel announcing the fall of Babylon, and the 3rd angel warning everyone of bruning in the lake of fire as the consequence for taking the mark of the beast.  THose three anegsl sets up the hour of trial that shall try all on the earth.

 

And then you read Matthew 24:15 of what any saint living during the great tribulation will see.

 

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

 

 

Whoso readeth, let him understand would lead to believers of the day living in the great tribulation.  Jesus said that teh days of the elect will be shortened and that means they will not see that.  hint pe tribulational rapture.  The disciples understand that as Jesus was giving the answer of the end, and so now begisn the topic of the signs leading up to when the days of the elect will be shortened before the great tribulation comes.

 

Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

 

WE are living in that tribulation now that precedes the great tribulation.  All of those "movements of the 'Spirit'" you have been hearing about;  "slain in the Spirit", "Toronto Blessings", "Pensacola Outpouring", and the "holy laughter" movement is the tribulation we were warned to stay away from and not chase after nor serve those seducing spirits in those movements.  Believers need ot repent and return to their first love, the Bridegroom, for help in keeping ther eyes on the Son for He will be coming soon to collect the ready bride of Christ.  So we are living in that "tribulation" before the pre trib rapture come when the great tribulation wll come afterwards.

 

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

So the rest of His words are prepping believers in being ready to escape or else they run the risk of being left behind to face the coming great tribulation.


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#16
Salty

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Another fact of proof that Matt.24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 is for His Church is how Jesus was covering the events of the 6th seals of Rev.6 in His Olivet Discourse all the way up to His second coming. Afterall, who did Jesus tell John to take His Revelation to? To the seven Churches in Asia (Asia-Minor).

 

It's surprising how some allow their selves to be so easily dissuaded from the simplicity of this, but that's what listening to men's doctrines will do.


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#17
tevans9129

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Hi tevans9129,

 

I believe looking at Matthew 24th chapter with Jesus as a Jewish Rabbi is a bit off to me.

 

John 8:30 As he spake these words, many believed on him. 31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. 33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? 34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. 35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. 36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

 

Jesus wasn't preaching Judaism.  What He was preaching is the Good News to man and everything He has said has to be in relation to those that believe in Him;  the church.  His disciples were first called christians at Antioch:  Acts 11:26

 

Anyway:  keeping everything He has said limited only to the Jewish people is forgetting spiritual Israel.

 

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

 Matthew 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. 6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. 9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

 

Jesus was addressing His disciples and thus applies to all believers that would be His disciples.  Everything that has been said describes leading up to the times we are living in now.  When would anyone know about earthquakes in divers places, but the technology now exist where we would know about earthquakes in the sea.

 

Then note the last verse 14 and remember the angel in Revelations 14 that is to give the everlasting gospel to all the world, followed by an angel announcing the fall of Babylon, and the 3rd angel warning everyone of bruning in the lake of fire as the consequence for taking the mark of the beast.  THose three anegsl sets up the hour of trial that shall try all on the earth.

 

And then you read Matthew 24:15 of what any saint living during the great tribulation will see.

 

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

 

 

Whoso readeth, let him understand would lead to believers of the day living in the great tribulation.  Jesus said that teh days of the elect will be shortened and that means they will not see that.  hint pe tribulational rapture.  The disciples understand that as Jesus was giving the answer of the end, and so now begisn the topic of the signs leading up to when the days of the elect will be shortened before the great tribulation comes.

 

Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

 

WE are living in that tribulation now that precedes the great tribulation.  All of those "movements of the 'Spirit'" you have been hearing about;  "slain in the Spirit", "Toronto Blessings", "Pensacola Outpouring", and the "holy laughter" movement is the tribulation we were warned to stay away from and not chase after nor serve those seducing spirits in those movements.  Believers need ot repent and return to their first love, the Bridegroom, for help in keeping ther eyes on the Son for He will be coming soon to collect the ready bride of Christ.  So we are living in that "tribulation" before the pre trib rapture come when the great tribulation wll come afterwards.

 

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

So the rest of His words are prepping believers in being ready to escape or else they run the risk of being left behind to face the coming great tribulation.

 

1a) I will be happy to discuss the subject with you, if, you are willing to answer my questions……all of them, just as I will agree to do for you. If not, I do not intend to get into a “you say this and then I say that and then you say no, it really is this” and on and on it goes. I have hundreds of volumes of commentaries that I can read and get their opinions on so I do not see a need for additional commentary, unless, a person is willing to answer all of my questions.

 

2) If I may….

 

I approach a discussion just as is done in an investigation, in a classroom or in a court of law. Truth and facts, as well as the knowledge of the subject, is determined by asking questions and getting answers that can be verified. If the person cannot, or refuses to answer questions, their credibility and/or knowledge of the subject is extremely suspect IMV.

 

 

3) I have no illusions of changing anyone’s mind by offering my commentary on a subject and no one is going to change my mind with their commentary. However, if someone asks me questions about my assertions that I cannot answer nor find an answer for with supporting evidence, then I ask myself, why I have no answer, if, my assertions are correct. That, will cause me to reevaluate my assertions, my opinions and make corrections when needed.


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#18
other one

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Another fact of proof that Matt.24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 is for His Church is how Jesus was covering the events of the 6th seals of Rev.6 in His Olivet Discourse all the way up to His second coming. Afterall, who did Jesus tell John to take His Revelation to? To the seven Churches in Asia (Asia-Minor).

 

It's surprising how some allow their selves to be so easily dissuaded from the simplicity of this, but that's what listening to men's doctrines will do.

The green part sounds good......   the red part isn't necessary and is very divisive


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#19
OneLight

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    I really enjoy discussing the Bible. There is so much to learn and so much to share.

    I am led to reach my hand out, in love, to those in need.

I approach a discussion just as is done in an investigation, in a classroom or in a court of law. Truth and facts, as well as the knowledge of the subject, is determined by asking questions and getting answers that can be verified. If the person cannot, or refuses to answer questions, their credibility and/or knowledge of the subject is extremely suspect IMV.


I need to step in here. This is a discussion forum, not a court of law and not a classroom. Nobody dictates to anyone how a thread is to be conducted, as long as the conduct is within the ToS. What was presented to you was an opinion of what a person saw in scripture, just as you provided your opinion of what you saw in scripture, and is just as valid.

Keep in mind this site is a ministry, not Facebook or Google Groups. The only ones who can hold any teaching threads are those who are part of this ministry. Discussions are always welcomed, as are debates, but teaching is not.


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#20
justfaith

justfaith

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Jesse
All christians are God elect not a 144k
 
Luke 18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
 
Romans 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

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