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    • As someone who used to worship in the Presbyterian tradition as a member of the Presbyterian Church in Ireland it breaks my heart that PC(USA) are hurtling towards the edge of the cliff.
    • I disagree.  "Rev 11 is a parentheses of events of the trumpets"  No, not at all. Remember when John dropped out of his real-time dialog on the seals, between the 6th seal and 7th. I like to use the word "intermission." He STOPPED the real-time of the seals because he cannot break the 7th seal that will officially begin the 70th week unto TWO events are accomplished: the sealing of the 144,000 and then the great crowd too large to number is seen in heaven (in other words, removed from earth before God's wrath is poured out.) John does the same thing with the trumpets. In chapter 9 he covered the 5th and 6th trumpets. But He cannot get to the 7th until he rearranges the setting. So chapter 10 is an intermission. 11:1 continues the intermission. Because of the time, it is the MIDPOINT intermission.  11:1-2 the city will be trampled for 42 months. Without any doubt, that time count of 42 months will begin at this verse. 11:3  The two witnesses suddenly appear out of nowhere on the scene. " 3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses "  it appears that John did not see them, but is just writing what the Holy Spirit tells him to write.  It also seems they will appear at this moment in John's narrative. In other words, what ever caused the city to begin being trampled by Gentiles cause these two witnesses to show up. There are only two people in history that did not die physically: Enoch and Elijah. It seems probable that it will be these two. It is only a guess. However, then John begins a journey down their 1260 days of testifying, right here in chapter 11. It is written as a parenthesis: the chronology is that they SHOW UP and BEGIN their testimony right at the verse of first mentions: 11:3. I am convinced that point in time is 3 1/2 days before the exact midpoint. Therefore, their testimony will be ongoing during chapters 12, 13, 14, 15, and finally 16. Did you notice, there is a severe earthquake when they rise, and there is a severe earthquake at the 7th vial that ends the week? I am convinced they are the same earthquake. Why? the timing fits perfectly: they BEGIN testifying 3 1/2 days before the midpoint: they testify for 1260 days, taking them to just 3 1/2 days before the 7th vial. They lay dead for those 3 1/2 days, and then rise up at the 7th vial. I am also convinced that is when ALL the Old Testament saints rise - all that did not rise when Jesus rose.  I know you disagree with this. You are wrong. "the 7th trumpet being sudden destruction"  Sorry, but again you put two things together that don't fit. Paul's sudden destruction is tied tightly to the dead in Christ rising. The only logical explanation, considering Matthew 27: "the earth did quake...and the graves were opened" is that the dead in Christ rising will CAUSE that sudden destruction and it will be a great, worldwide earthquake. It is NOT the same earthquake as seen at the 7th vial, nor is it the earthquake when the two witnesses rise - which IS the same as the 7th vial. "And then that infliction stops for 3 and half days as scripture states"  Sorry, the scriptures really don't say that. You only imagine it. It could be - it could not be. You imagine it is sometime during the week, while I am sure it is very near the battle of Armageddon.  The whole atmosphere (feeling of the people) will be very different around the midpoint of the week versus the end of the week. Exactly! This is rearranging. You are saying that events written of in chapter 12 actually will happen when the 5th seal is opened. The truth is, events in chapter 12 (outside of verses 1-5) take place at the midpoint of the week, while the events the 5th seal - the martyrs of the church age - will be ongoing right up to seal 6 and END. Any martyr after that will not be a church age martyr. Judgment begins then and the martyrs who died previously will be avenged. The martyrs of the 70th week will not be avenged until the Beast is taken and cast into the lake of fire.  My point is, there is no need for such rearranging. Leave the events of chapter 12 near the midpoint!  Next, when you say "belonging to" the fifth seal, that really does not fit. These seals are sealing a document that CANNOT be opened until all 7 seals are opened first. The events in chapter 12 are events written INSIDE that document that cannot be read until all 7 seals are opened.  The truth is then, by the time John gets to the 12th chapter, the 5th seal will have LONG AGO been opened. finally I can somewhat agree: after the man of sin is revealed, having entered the temple and declared he is God, then, he will begin to wage war. But chapter 12 is speaking of Satan, not of the man of sin. After the man of sin declares he is God, He will become possessed by Satan, and then what Satan does he will do. Satan goes after the remnant of the woman's seed. But He will use the man of sin turned Beast to do it.   No, you only imagine I have denied Christ's authority. OF COURSE He will judge the dead. Our difference is WHEN this will occur.  Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.   WHEN is the "then" it is WHEN He comes in His glory. You imagine that coming at the 7th trumpet, but John and the Holy Spirit put it in Rev. 19. The TRUTH is, Rev 19 will come over 3 1/2 years AFTER the 7th trumpet.   We both agree on rewards given out, but we disagree on WHEN. I insist, He comes WITH His rewards, so they will not be given out until HE comes.
    • It just stikes me odd that the resurrection of the dead and gathering would come at the sound of a Jewish trumpet, a religion that denies the Christ anyway. Learn something about trumpets Lamad... Trump, Trumpet:   Transliteration salpigx is used (1) of the natural instrument, 1Cr 14:8; (2) of the supernatural accompaniment of Divine interpositions, (a) at Sinai, Hbr 12:19; (b) of the acts of angels at the Second Advent of Christ, Mat 24:31; (c) of their acts in the period of Divine judgments preceding this, Rev 8:2, 6, 13; 9:14; (d) of a summons to John to the presence of God, Rev 1:10; 4:1; _____________________________ Sound (Noun and Verb):   Transliteration salpizō "to sound a trumpet" (salpinx), occurs in Mat 6:2; 1Cr 15:52, "the trumpet shall sound;" Rev 8:6-8, 10, 12, 13; 9:1, 13; 10:7; 11:15. 101 Verb Strong's Number: g4537 Greek: salpizo Trump, Trumpet: "to sound a trumpet," Mat 6:2; as in (2) (c) above, Rev 8:6-8, 10, 12, 13; 9:1, 13; 10:7; 11:15; as in (2) (e) 1Cr 15:52. (e) of the act of the Lord in raising from the dead the saints who have fallen asleep and changing the bodies of those who are living, at the Rapture of all to meet Him in the air, 1Cr 15:52, where "the last trump" is a military allusion, familiar to Greek readers, and has no connection with the series in Rev 8:6 to 11:15; there is a possible allusion to Num 10:2-6, with reference to the same event, 1Th 4:16, "the (lit., a) trump of God" (the absence of the article suggests the meaning "a trumpet such as is used in God's service"). There are seven trumpets in Revelation.  All others are things that sound "as or like a trumpet." Pre-trib.  Full of complications.  Full of fabrications.  Full of contradictions.  And they don't care.  They prefer to stay true to the false deceitful teaching than to the teachings of Jesus... Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.   And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.  And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.  And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.  And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.  And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.  And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.    
    • You first challenged my statement ... ...by saying atheists can love. So I can't go on until you give your definition of love.
    • I would like to have your input on this one, cince I don't have dictionaries and I am on an iPhone. 
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