Jump to content

christian forums

Worthy Christian Forums - Christian Forums

Welcome to Worthy Christian Forums
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Photo

3 STAGES OF ROME

* * * * * 1 votes

This topic has been archived. This means that you cannot reply to this topic.
49 replies to this topic

#1
ARGOSY

ARGOSY

    Veteran Member

  • Advanced Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 884 posts

I believe Daniel 2 refers to 3 stages of Rome:

1) Iron

2) Two feet of Iron and clay

3) Ten toes of iron and clay

 

Interpreted as :

1)Roman empire

 

2) The Roman empire split into two religious empires :

Papal Europe in the West

Turkey in the East (Byzantium/Ottoman Empires.)

 

3) Papal Europe will encourage Turkey to expand its control over ten countries in the Middle East. This new Turkish Union will be Israel friendly and will bring peace to Islam and to bring peace to East/West relations.

 

I believe this scenario explains the Rome/Islam debate about whether the final power will be based in Europe or from the Islamic Middle East. I believe it will be from the Islamic Middle East. The split Roman Empire (Turkey and Europe) co-operate to set up the new ten nation Turkish Union.  Any obvious biblical flaws in this scenario?

 

 



#2
Spock

Spock

    Senior Member

  • Senior Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,211 posts
Argosy,

I'm glad to see you have been reading my thoughts on the Rev 13 thread and the Middle East War thread. We are finally practically of one mind on this one.

Out of all the theories you have postulated, this may be your finest hour. I like this a lot. It makes a lot of sense. Of course, it could be wrong too, but I especially like how you did not go out of your way to call this a sixth and seventh kingdom like some do (apparently to avoid admitting this is somewhat of a revival of the old Roman Empire).

One concern- this new ten nation alliance will not incorporate any of the psalm 83 countries I hope because they won't be around at that time. Do you have any possible list of countries you are looking at?

I was looking at the Mediterranean Union earlier but never went further. I like this union of Europe plus Islam.

#3
ARGOSY

ARGOSY

    Veteran Member

  • Advanced Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 884 posts

Argosy,

I'm glad to see you have been reading my thoughts on the Rev 13 thread and the Middle East War thread. We are finally practically of one mind on this one.

Out of all the theories you have postulated, this may be your finest hour. I like this a lot. It makes a lot of sense. Of course, it could be wrong too, but I especially like how you did not go out of your way to call this a sixth and seventh kingdom like some do (apparently to avoid admitting this is somewhat of a revival of the old Roman Empire).

One concern- this new ten nation alliance will not incorporate any of the psalm 83 countries I hope because they won't be around at that time. Do you have any possible list of countries you are looking at?

I was looking at the Mediterranean Union earlier but never went further. I like this union of Europe plus Islam.

 

Thanks Spock. This was merely another way of expressing what I have believed for years. (some aspects maybe months.)

 

Yes I do have a list of countries, based on one simple sentence in Revelation 13. The beast will resemble the leopard. The leopard was Daniel's third kingdom, and under Alexander the Great the kingdom roughly encompassed the following modern countries:

Egypt, Syria, Greece, Turkey, Israel, Lebanon, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Libya.

 

I believe most likely Israel, Iraq and Syria will become one (3 horns fall before the little horn - Daniel 7). This is why they are not included in the Gog war, because all three of these countries become the throne of the "little horn". The whole world (Gog and its allies) attacks this new Israeli superstate at Armageddon. Two evil armies face-off.  Israel only starts winning after they repent, before that they are losing the final war.



#4
Persuaded

Persuaded

    Junior Member

  • Junior Member
  • PipPip
  • 245 posts
The dream, and its interpretation:
 
[Dan 2:31 NKJV] "You, O king, were watching; and behold, a great image! This great image, whose splendor [was] excellent, stood before you; and its form [was] awesome.
[Dan 2:32 NKJV] "This image's head [was] of fine gold, its chest and arms of silver, its belly and thighs of bronze,
[Dan 2:33 NKJV] "its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of clay.
[Dan 2:34 NKJV] "You watched while a stone was cut out without hands, which struck the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces.
[Dan 2:35 NKJV] "Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold were crushed together, and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; the wind carried them away so that no trace of them was found. And the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.
[Dan 2:36 NKJV] "This [is] the dream. Now we will tell the interpretation of it before the king.
[Dan 2:37 NKJV] "You, O king, [are] a king of kings. For the God of heaven has given you a kingdom, power, strength, and glory;
[Dan 2:38 NKJV] "and wherever the children of men dwell, or the beasts of the field and the birds of the heaven, He has given [them] into your hand, and has made you ruler over them all--you [are] this head of gold.
[Dan 2:39 NKJV] "But after you shall arise another kingdom inferior to yours; then another, a third kingdom of bronze, which shall rule over all the earth.
[Dan 2:40 NKJV] "And the fourth kingdom shall be as strong as iron, inasmuch as iron breaks in pieces and shatters everything; and like iron that crushes, [that kingdom] will break in pieces and crush all the others.
[Dan 2:41 NKJV] "Whereas you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter's clay and partly of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; yet the strength of the iron shall be in it, just as you saw the iron mixed with ceramic clay.
[Dan 2:42 NKJV] "And [as] the toes of the feet [were] partly of iron and partly of clay, [so] the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly fragile.
[Dan 2:43 NKJV] "As you saw iron mixed with ceramic clay, they will mingle with the seed of men; but they will not adhere to one another, just as iron does not mix with clay.
[Dan 2:44 NKJV] "And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever.
[Dan 2:45 NKJV] "Inasmuch as you saw that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold--the great God has made known to the king what will come to pass after this. The dream is certain, and its interpretation is sure."
 
First things to note are that this was Neb's dream, and it portrays events from his perspective, where earthly rulership is a glorious thing. This is in contrast to Daniel's dream in Dan 7, where the same four kingdoms are portrayed from God's perspective as ravenous beasts.
 
Historically, from Neb's point of view, he was the head of gold in that his rule was absolute. (Dan 2:37)
The next kingdom, the Medes and Persians, was less absolute: "the law of the medes and persians cannot be broken", meaning the king was subject to the law. (Dan 6:8)
And so on with the greeks.
These three kingdoms (empires) shared the idea of preserving the culture and learning of those they conquered, often adding local deities to their own culture. Rome is seen in contrast, utterly destroying its enemies and enforcing its culture wherever it ruled. This is the iron aspect.
 
Clay is idiomatic of people in scripture, whether by Jesus' "I am the potter you are the clay", or Gen 2 when Adam was formed of the dust, or as interpreted for us here in Dan 2:43 where clay is "the seed of men", and other passages throughout scripture- it's not a controversial idiom and is widely understood.

 

Whereas the beast dreams of Dan 7 portray the transitional states of the empires, I don't think we see that in the Dan 2 dream except where it explicitly says so from 2:41 onward:

-we don't see one side growing stronger/one side diminishing aspect of the mede-to-persian shift in dominance as depicted by the bear "lifting up on one side".

-we don't see greece split into four with the death of Alex the Great, as with the leopard's four heads.

 

Looking at 2:41-

[Dan 2:41 NKJV] "Whereas you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter's clay and partly of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; yet the strength of the iron shall be in it, just as you saw the iron mixed with ceramic clay.

"The kingdom shall be divided", means it's the same overall kingdom (empire), and it isn't conquered but instead splits. This is the story of the Roman empire, which was never conquered but split into eastern and western parts, but retained an identity or connection to its former self. As it mixed with clay, it became even less absolute, and its power was dispersed through many people. The eastern and western parts further split and divided, and today practically all the nations of europe and the middle east are descendants of Rome.

 

The idiom of the iron legs transitioning to iron/clay feet and toes is one of power diminishing and dispersing over time.

 

"And in the days of these kings", in the days when Rome has been dispersed, divided, and diluted among the people. I happen to think that there will be a ten-nation confederation arising from the remnants of the roman empire, but that is an inference drawn when comparing the implied ten toes with the ten horns of Dan 7, etc. Beyond that, I think it's somewhat conjectural to try to identify the ten nations- the fact that the list changes every few years lends credence to the idea that this is the wrong tree to be barking up. I put this one in the "we'll know it when we see it" category.

 

So there's no "fifth empire", and reading the papacy into these dreams doesn't fit. The papacy may play a part, but that's not inherent or required by these dreams. The ten nations/rulers will band together before one of them becomes ascendant, so it doesn't make sense to look for the one, before the ten are formed.



#5
Spock

Spock

    Senior Member

  • Senior Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,211 posts
EXCELLENT analysis Persuaded. Clap clap. And you said it so eloquently while keeping it simple.

You lived up to your name on this one.

#6
Marilyn C

Marilyn C

    Senior Member

  • Soapbox - Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,201 posts

Hi Argosy,

 

I read your interpretation of God`s Great Image. Now what scriptures (other than more symbols) do you have to back up this theory? Looking forward to reading them as it seems everyone thinks this is right. For such a popular view it must have undeniable scriptures that say Rome is the Final Ruler of today. It must be so obvious but I seem to be missing it.

 

 

Now I have just read your thoughts on this matter over in the `5th beast,` #57 so I do not need for you to write those. I would like though for scriptures to show God`s interpretation of His word, His symbols.

 

 

To me it is the right way to accurately handle God`s word by putting all the scriptures pertaining to the topic together to see what God says & not for us to just have our opinions of it. I have asked different ones concerning this topic but as yet I have not received any scriptures saying it is Rome (not just using symbols).

 

 

I hope you can bring forth some relevant scriptures. Thank you.



#7
Sister

Sister

    Junior Member

  • Junior Member
  • PipPip
  • 243 posts

I believe Daniel 2 refers to 3 stages of Rome:

1) Iron

2) Two feet of Iron and clay

3) Ten toes of iron and clay

 

Interpreted as :

1)Roman empire

 

2) The Roman empire split into two religious empires :

Papal Europe in the West

Turkey in the East (Byzantium/Ottoman Empires.)

 

3) Papal Europe will encourage Turkey to expand its control over ten countries in the Middle East. This new Turkish Union will be Israel friendly and will bring peace to Islam and to bring peace to East/West relations.

 

I believe this scenario explains the Rome/Islam debate about whether the final power will be based in Europe or from the Islamic Middle East. I believe it will be from the Islamic Middle East. The split Roman Empire (Turkey and Europe) co-operate to set up the new ten nation Turkish Union.  Any obvious biblical flaws in this scenario?

 

Hi Argosy

 

Yes I do believe there is something we should consider here.

The statue is quite simple.

The legs of iron symbolise the Roman Empire, yes, but there came a time when the Roman empire was no longer ruling.  This would be where the feet would start.  A new empire, mixed with a bit of iron in it still.  This would be the British empire, it's roots are from the Roman.

The British empire is still ruling today behind the scenes.   The ten kings come out of this empire., the British Empire.  The feet and toes have the "strength of iron".  Just as Rome was powerful in it's day, this kingdom will be just as strong, even stronger, but will break in pieces at the coming.  I believe the 10 toes (10 kings) as mentioned in rev, are coming from Europe (North of Israel) and not from the middle east, but the great war coming will be there in the Middle East and scripture tells us everything leading up to it will finally take place in Israel.

 

Thank you

God bless



#8
ARGOSY

ARGOSY

    Veteran Member

  • Advanced Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 884 posts

Hi Argosy,

 

I read your interpretation of God`s Great Image. Now what scriptures (other than more symbols) do you have to back up this theory? Looking forward to reading them as it seems everyone thinks this is right. For such a popular view it must have undeniable scriptures that say Rome is the Final Ruler of today. It must be so obvious but I seem to be missing it.

 

 

Now I have just read your thoughts on this matter over in the `5th beast,` #57 so I do not need for you to write those. I would like though for scriptures to show God`s interpretation of His word, His symbols.

 

 

To me it is the right way to accurately handle God`s word by putting all the scriptures pertaining to the topic together to see what God says & not for us to just have our opinions of it. I have asked different ones concerning this topic but as yet I have not received any scriptures saying it is Rome (not just using symbols).

 

 

I hope you can bring forth some relevant scriptures. Thank you.

Thanks for your approach, yes of course a view must be backed by scripture. Unfortunately symbolism is always open to interpretation, so what may seem obvious to me may not seem obvious to you. You have read my post 57 of the 5th Beast thread which is where I show my thinking regarding Rome. I believe this is all I need, its all pretty obvious to me. Alternative views in my own eyes would seem like a "make-it-fit" approach.  In addition I regard Daniel 7 as matching the four kingdoms of Daniel 2, except Daniel 7 does not focus on the spit part of the fourth beast, jumping straight into the ten toes (ten horns) stage. A horn is always a division of a kingdom, and in this way the little horn is a continuation of Rome. Thus we have two matching prophecies, each with differing emphasis.  

 

I believe the whore city of Rev 17/18 is also most obviously Rome. In this case it represent specifically the Papal Europe portion of Rome, and not the Turkish portion. Rev 17 is showing the interrelationship of Papal Europe with the Turkish Union.  Debates rage on about which city is being referred to , but the emphasis on the color of the robes pointing to the Vatican/Ancient Rome and the description in 17:18 I believe swings the debate more obviously in favor of Papal Europe. 



#9
Marilyn C

Marilyn C

    Senior Member

  • Soapbox - Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,201 posts

Hi Arogosy,

 

I will certainly point out any specific verse I would like you to look at. But I don`t seem to see any scriptures apart from man`s interpretation of God`s symbols.

Can you show me where are those scriptures, (not symbols)?



#10
ARGOSY

ARGOSY

    Veteran Member

  • Advanced Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 884 posts

Yes I do believe there is something we should consider here.

The statue is quite simple.

The legs of iron symbolise the Roman Empire, yes, but there came a time when the Roman empire was no longer ruling.  This would be where the feet would start.  A new empire, mixed with a bit of iron in it still.  This would be the British empire, it's roots are from the Roman.

The British empire is still ruling today behind the scenes.   The ten kings come out of this empire., the British Empire.  The feet and toes have the "strength of iron".  Just as Rome was powerful in it's day, this kingdom will be just as strong, even stronger, but will break in pieces at the coming.  I believe the 10 toes (10 kings) as mentioned in rev, are coming from Europe (North of Israel) and not from the middle east, but the great war coming will be there in the Middle East and scripture tells us everything leading up to it will finally take place in Israel.

 

 

Please refer to my post 57 of the 5th beast thread where I spell out my logic regarding the split empire of Rome. There are two feet, and this empire is then described as a divided empire.  And so I prefer the Europe/Turkey view because the empire was immediately successive to the Roman Empire, retained the same two capital cities, and was a divided empire. Additionally clay is a symbol of true religion and brittle clay therefore a symbol of false religion, and I see an emphasis on false religion ruling the split empire.  Thus on 4 grounds I prefer the Europe/Turkey view to your British Empire view, unless you can show my I should prefer your British Empire view.

 

Thanks... looking forward to your response.



#11
ARGOSY

ARGOSY

    Veteran Member

  • Advanced Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 884 posts

Hi Arogosy,

 

I will certainly point out any specific verse I would like you to look at. But I don`t seem to see any scriptures apart from man`s interpretation of God`s symbols.

Can you show me where are those scriptures, (not symbols)?

 

The statue is obviously a timeline of empires. It speaks to me of an unbroken timeline of consecutive empires. I need no scriptures for this, the whole of Daniel 2 would give that impression to most readers looking for the obvious (do you agree?)

 

The two feet are specifically described as a divided empire. Thus we picture a Babylonian statue, legs together , feet apart. 

After you shall arise another kingdom inferior to you, and yet a third kingdom of bronze, which shall rule over all the earth. 40 And there shall be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron, because iron breaks to pieces and shatters all things; and like iron which crushes, it shall break and crush all these. 41 And as you saw the feet and toes partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, it shall be a divided kingdom; but some of the firmness of iron shall be in it, just as you saw iron mixed with the miry clay.

 

We know elsewhere in the bible that we are supposed to be clay moulded into pots for good use. This means clay is a symbol of flexibility to the truth (true religion). Brittle clay represent false religion.

 

So already we know from scripture to look for a consecutive empire of Rome, which still has Rome in it (iron) and is a divided kingdom, divided into two divisions (two feet), and now has false religion in its leadership (clay as part of the kingdom). 

 

Nothing is conclusive, but if you are open to whats obvious you would see some truths in what I say, from the scriptures. Unless you have something more obvious for me.

 

History shows that this is exactly what happened to the two capital cities of the Roman Empire, they split into two religious empires.

 

I don't see how any part of this interpretation is "man's interpretation". I got the consecutive empires thing from Daniel 2, (after this shall arise another kingdom)  I got the divided empires thing from Daniel 2:41, I got the continuation of iron (Rome) in the two feet from the statue, its not my own idea. Moldable Clay is a known symbol for flexibility for God's purposes. (clay pots for good use).  History shows that after Babylon came Persia , Greece and Rome.

 

All pretty obvious?



#12
inchrist

inchrist

    Veteran Member

  • Soapbox - Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 536 posts

I would like to help Marilyn C build her case here and also present an alternative view here.

 

Daniel 2:40

And the fourth kingdom shall be as strong as iron, inasmuch as iron breaks in pieces and shatters everything; and like iron that crushes, that kingdom will break in pieces and crush all the others.

 

Notice the bold. That one kingdom will crush ALL the other kingdoms. It doesn’t say that about any of the other kingdoms before it. This means this 4th kingdom will have crushed, or conquered, all the areas of the Babylonian, Medo-Persian, and Grecian kingdoms. The Roman Empire never conquered all the areas of the 3 previous empires only the areas around the mediterranean sea.

 

babylonian_empire1.jpg

 

persian_empire.jpg

grecianempire.gif

 

Now the Roman Empire

romanempire.jpg

 

Further I'm actually doubting the original view of the 4 Kingdoms traditionally held as being Babylon, Medo-Persian, Greek, Roman

 

My alternative 4 Kingdoms view are as follows

1. Babylon

2. Media

3. Persia

4. Islam

 

Note:Media and Persia are two separate kingdoms but allied powers, It is Daniel who states that Darius the Mede succeeded Belshazzar, and who elsewhere speaks of "Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of the seed of the Medes, which was made king over the realm of the Chaldaeans." In other words Darius was made King over the realm of Babylon.


Edited by inchrist, 11 July 2014 - 06:10 AM.


#13
ARGOSY

ARGOSY

    Veteran Member

  • Advanced Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 884 posts

 

My alternative 4 Kingdoms view are as follows

1. Babylon

2. Media

3. Persia

4. Islam

 

Note:Media and Persia are two separate kingdoms but allied powers, It is Daniel who states that Darius the Mede succeeded Belshazzar, and who elsewhere speaks of "Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of the seed of the Medes, which was made king over the realm of the Chaldaeans." In other words Darius was made King over the realm of Babylon.

 

Thanks for the contribution.  Sure you can see many things into a symbolic metallic statue. But the most obvious is staring in our face.

After you shall arise another kingdom inferior to you, and yet a third kingdom of bronze, which shall rule over all the earth. 40 And there shall be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron, because iron breaks to pieces and shatters all things; and like iron which crushes, it shall break and crush all these. 41 And as you saw the feet and toes partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, it shall be a divided kingdom

 

The most obvious is that these are four consecutive kingdoms starting with Babylon. This is what the text is saying. history is clear on those four kingdoms, each conquering the previous, and each having a new geographical base. So I don't see the need to change the four kingdoms.  The fourth is supposed to then divide, because the text says its a divided kingdom (two feet).  Rome did so. And if we see Rome extended into Papal Europe as one of the two feet, Rome and Papal Europe through colonialism did crush and divide the whole earth, including Iran, Iraq, and Greece.

 

But when I see the other foot of the divided kingdom as representing Turkey and Istanbul , here you can start to see some agreement between our views.  Islamic Turkey is in the process of taking over the Middle East to establish a large Islamic Empire which will dominate the political landscape of earth. Its happening, but with Europe's support. 

 

So we do not agree perfectly , but the end result of both our views is the same. You believe Islam is the fourth empire which will dominate the earth during the ten horns stage, I believe Islam is the one of the two feet of the fourth empire and Islam will dominate the earth during the ten horns stage.  (our views are pretty close huh?)   :grin: 



#14
ARGOSY

ARGOSY

    Veteran Member

  • Advanced Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 884 posts

 

 

"And in the days of these kings", in the days when Rome has been dispersed, divided, and diluted among the people. I happen to think that there will be a ten-nation confederation arising from the remnants of the roman empire, but that is an inference drawn when comparing the implied ten toes with the ten horns of Dan 7, etc. Beyond that, I think it's somewhat conjectural to try to identify the ten nations- the fact that the list changes every few years lends credence to the idea that this is the wrong tree to be barking up. I put this one in the "we'll know it when we see it" category.

 

 

 

We agree on so much regarding Rome, that I feel a little bad for focussing on a point of difference.  I feel there is a little clue to the defining of these ten kingdoms in an often neglected part of Rev 13:2 And the beast that I saw was like a leopard

 

This is an obvious reference back to Daniel 7; Alexander's Empire, which is described as the leopard. If the final beast has similar borders to Alexander's empire, just refer to inchrist's map of this empire to see which ten countries will be part of the final empire. I could be wrong but the best ten seem to be:

Greece, Turkey, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Israel, Egypt, Iran, Afghanistan, and Libya.  Or maybe replace Libya with Pakistan.

 

This is not conclusive, but I regard it as a likely possible fulfilment of the sentence "the beast that I saw was like a leopard".



#15
Spock

Spock

    Senior Member

  • Senior Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,211 posts
Inchrist,

You know I'm a huge fan of yours and Marilyn as well, but........

If you guys believe the Rome Empire, arguably the greatest world empire known, is not included in Daniel, then it seems to me you are more interested in fitting in scripture to support your agenda than you are rightly dividing the word.

There is NO WAY Rome is not a part of that statue for many reasons, common sense being one.

Its not my purpose to be mean here and I definitely appreciate your many great insights you have shared, but this one......

Ugh! Sigh!

In love,
Spock

#16
Persuaded

Persuaded

    Junior Member

  • Junior Member
  • PipPip
  • 245 posts

I would like to help Marilyn C build her case here and also present an alternative view here.
 
Daniel 2:40
And the fourth kingdom shall be as strong as iron, inasmuch as iron breaks in pieces and shatters everything; and like iron that crushes, that kingdom will break in pieces and crush all the others.
 
Notice the bold. That one kingdom will crush ALL the other kingdoms. It doesn’t say that about any of the other kingdoms before it. This means this 4th kingdom will have crushed, or conquered, all the areas of the Babylonian, Medo-Persian, and Grecian kingdoms. The Roman Empire never conquered all the areas of the 3 previous empires only the areas around the mediterranean sea.
 

All the other kingdoms, refers to the three previously mentioned. It's poor hermeneutics to change the definition of a word from one sentence to the next. Kingdom is consistently used here of the empires, not the individual city-states that comprised the empire.

#17
inchrist

inchrist

    Veteran Member

  • Soapbox - Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 536 posts

@Argosy,

 

I like your harmonization of it all

 

@ Spock

lol...I'm just exploring views...I'm a little tied up this weekend but Ill squeeze some time in on Sunday to put some ideas forward why Rome and Greece could be a bit awkward in the prophecy...it's always good to review things



#18
Persuaded

Persuaded

    Junior Member

  • Junior Member
  • PipPip
  • 245 posts

"And in the days of these kings", in the days when Rome has been dispersed, divided, and diluted among the people. I happen to think that there will be a ten-nation confederation arising from the remnants of the roman empire, but that is an inference drawn when comparing the implied ten toes with the ten horns of Dan 7, etc. Beyond that, I think it's somewhat conjectural to try to identify the ten nations- the fact that the list changes every few years lends credence to the idea that this is the wrong tree to be barking up. I put this one in the "we'll know it when we see it" category.

 
We agree on so much regarding Rome, that I feel a little bad for focussing on a point of difference.  I feel there is a little clue to the defining of these ten kingdoms in an often neglected part of Rev 13:2 And the beast that I saw was like a leopard
 
This is an obvious reference back to Daniel 7; Alexander's Empire, which is described as the leopard. If the final beast has similar borders to Alexander's empire, just refer to inchrist's map of this empire to see which ten countries will be part of the final empire. I could be wrong but the best ten seem to be:
Greece, Turkey, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Israel, Egypt, Iran, Afghanistan, and Libya.  Or maybe replace Libya with Pakistan.
 
This is not conclusive, but I regard it as a likely possible fulfilment of the sentence "the beast that I saw was like a leopard".
Rev 13:1-2 refers to aspects of all four beasts of Dan 7. The Rev 13 beast is like Neb's dream, a composite beast that represents world dominion. In Dan 7, the beasts are in chronological order looking forward, in Rev 13 the order is reversed, as John is looking from the point of view of the future, looking back.

#19
ARGOSY

ARGOSY

    Veteran Member

  • Advanced Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 884 posts

 

 

"And in the days of these kings", in the days when Rome has been dispersed, divided, and diluted among the people. I happen to think that there will be a ten-nation confederation arising from the remnants of the roman empire, but that is an inference drawn when comparing the implied ten toes with the ten horns of Dan 7, etc. Beyond that, I think it's somewhat conjectural to try to identify the ten nations- the fact that the list changes every few years lends credence to the idea that this is the wrong tree to be barking up. I put this one in the "we'll know it when we see it" category.

 
We agree on so much regarding Rome, that I feel a little bad for focussing on a point of difference.  I feel there is a little clue to the defining of these ten kingdoms in an often neglected part of Rev 13:2 And the beast that I saw was like a leopard
 
This is an obvious reference back to Daniel 7; Alexander's Empire, which is described as the leopard. If the final beast has similar borders to Alexander's empire, just refer to inchrist's map of this empire to see which ten countries will be part of the final empire. I could be wrong but the best ten seem to be:
Greece, Turkey, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Israel, Egypt, Iran, Afghanistan, and Libya.  Or maybe replace Libya with Pakistan.
 
This is not conclusive, but I regard it as a likely possible fulfilment of the sentence "the beast that I saw was like a leopard".
Rev 13:1-2 refers to aspects of all four beasts of Dan 7. The Rev 13 beast is like Neb's dream, a composite beast that represents world dominion. In Dan 7, the beasts are in chronological order looking forward, in Rev 13 the order is reversed, as John is looking from the point of view of the future, looking back.

 

 

Yes, it is certainly possible to see the reference to the other 3 beasts in Revelation 13 as a reference to the historical derivation of the final beast. Its one of those cases where I cant prove my case, and the text itself also supports both our views. Although the reference to the mouth, the feet and the "resembling" seem to go beyond mere historical derivation. And seems more limited than a world empire, despite the worldwide authority of the fourth beast. 



#20
Persuaded

Persuaded

    Junior Member

  • Junior Member
  • PipPip
  • 245 posts

 

 

 

We know elsewhere in the bible that we are supposed to be clay moulded into pots for good use. This means clay is a symbol of flexibility to the truth (true religion). Brittle clay represent false religion.

 

So already we know from scripture to look for a consecutive empire of Rome, which still has Rome in it (iron) and is a divided kingdom, divided into two divisions (two feet), and now has false religion in its leadership (clay as part of the kingdom). 

 

Nothing is conclusive, but if you are open to whats obvious you would see some truths in what I say, from the scriptures. Unless you have something more obvious for me.

 

I think one area where you are going off-track is with the clay. You're reading significance into the soft/hard aspects of clay, but I don't think that is valid. I've never seen a useful pot made with soft clay, for instance. Since the idiom is defined in the very next verse, I think that's the one that should be used, and it is consistent with the clay idiom throughout scripture:

 

[Dan 2:43 NKJV] "As you saw iron mixed with ceramic clay, they will mingle with the seed of men; but they will not adhere to one another, just as iron does not mix with clay.

 

It seems you're reading a religious overtone into the clay, and thus trying to fit in the papacy or islam. I think the more scripturally supported view is that the clay is simply people.






Worthy Christian Forums - Christian Message Boards - 1999-2014 part of the Worthy Network