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A little freaked out

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I just came upon a site trying to attack a man of God because he preaches Lordship Salvation:

 

 

 

LORDSHIP SALVATION is the false doctrine that a sinner MUST be willing to stop living a sinful lifestyle or to give up the sinful world to be saved.  In sharp contrast, the Bible, God's Word, teaches that a sinner's faith in Christ alone is sufficient for salvation.  Salvation is receiving, not giving.  Eternal life is a gift.

 

 

 

I could post the site link but I don't know if it'll do any good.  If people want it then I will.  Clearly this person hsa not read through the four gospels enough.  What do people expect the gospel to be???  Except:  Repent!  For the Kingdom of God is at hand!  If that isn't God declaring His Lordship and demanding we submit to it in order to be saved, then what else is it?  Why would we not accept that the Lord is God if we truly believe in Him?

 

I'm concerned because there are people out there who believe some other gospel and hold the true one as false.  How many, I don't know, but I suspect a significant amount.  I did feel bad for the man of God and his reputation, but I soon felt wrse for those upholding this lie and the judgement they will come under.  That is what freaks me out.  Am I on my own here???????

 

 

 

Ephesians 2:8-9

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

 

Not faith alone, but grace through faith! 

 

 

Acts 20:24

But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.
 
 
Grace from the LORD Jesus!
 
 
 
 
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You don't think God saves us unless we stop sinning first?

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I do not think that unregenerate man, the unsaved, has a chance at not sinning, so no one is saved becuase they stopped sinning. On the other hand . . .

8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

That passage seems like we are saved and then do the works that please God. 1 Cor 10:13 sounds almost as though for those who have been indwelt by the spirit, the saved, it might be possible to resist temptation:

13No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.

Just thoughts.

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No no, unless there is repentance first.  God gives us grace through faith to save us from sin, not so that we could continue in sin.  It is an ongoing work, and culminates in spiritual perfection.

 

Do you believe that there is no need for repentance?

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Romans 10: says we must believe with the Heart that God hath raised Him from the dead and confess with our mouth Him, Lord.

the problem with Lordship salvation is one gets the cart in front of the horse. and preach that there is something we can do to get saved or there is things we have to do to keep ourselves saved. if either were possible then Jesus would not had to die, there would had been another way. When God said when I see the travail of His soul, I shall be satisfied. What else is there for man to do to add to that satisfaction , but believe/faith. My righteousness at It's best is filthy rags, I must take on His righteousness, unless my righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes, I must take on His righteousness. It is His works That I depend on, not that of myself least I boast. You can't work a good work for anything unless you are attached to the true vine. Romans 12 :1 says we need to present our bodies a living sacrifice Holy and acceptable, for this is our reasonable service, that is addressed to the Brethren, because we are to do these works because we are saved not to get saved. A reasonable service for what God did for us. not  to get saved. With Lordship salvation, one has to depend on what they can do. their faith is in their works and not in Christ alone. He is the foundation and corner stone of our faith. as the ones that were not allowed in, and they cried look at the works WE DID in your name! Many will be deceived. if we are saved they will know us by our fruits. If we are saved we will bear the fruit of the Spirit that dwells in us. that is why some thought they were saved but had not ministered to those sick, those in prison, those that were naked or hungered.  those that had done those things had done them For Christ and not for themselves. If I receive any Glory for my works, I will lay that glory at His Feet one day, for it is him that All glory is due. 

 

1 John 2:1-2

2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

KJV

Lordship salvation makes salvation something we have earned. and not that of a Gift of God.

Rom 6:19-23

19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.

22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

KJV

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You don't think God saves us unless we stop sinning first?

 

That's like telling someone they have to get cleaned up before taking a bath. :)

 

The miracle of God's salvation is that "While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

 

Sure, we confess that we are sinners, but we acknowledge we cannot save ourselves. As for repenting of sins, there are many sins we commit that we are not even aware of (i.e. attitude sins).

 

"If salvation cold be granted through the Law [our ability to stop sinning], then Christ died for nothing."

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I agree with Zion in that there has to be a change in the person's life.  Faith without works is dead.  True salvation will bring about a change in lifestyle.  It is not that you stop sinning an then accept Jesus.  You accept Jesus, and then quit living a lifestyle of willful sin.  I can't really say what I think about a web-site or ministry I haven't looked into, so this is just a general observation based on what has been posted in the OP.

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No no, unless there is repentance first.  God gives us grace through faith to save us from sin, not so that we could continue in sin.  It is an ongoing work, and culminates in spiritual perfection.

 

Do you believe that there is no need for repentance?

2 Cor 13:5-9

5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

6 But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

7 Now I pray to God that ye do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that ye should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates.

8 For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth.

9 For we are glad, when we are weak, and ye are strong: and this also we wish, even your perfection.

KJV

Paul said for that what I should do, I do not. and that what I should not do. that I do. Let me share a story. right after I got married, I saw an elderly friend of the family, that I hadn't saw in awhile. he said that he had heard that I got Married and wanted to know if I had any kids yet. I said Lord< I can't afford any kids. His response was. Let me tell you this, young man, If you wait until you can afford to have kids, to have kids. You will never have any kids. so let me tell you this to all the Lordship salvation people, if you wait until you are righteous enough to call upon the name of the Lord, then you will never be able to call upon the name of the Lord. If by repenting first, you make yourself presentable to the Lord, Then it is no Longer Grace that you are saved by, and you are in no need of Mercy. For you have made yourself ready for salvation, again let me say this with all the love of Christ I can, if we are saved by Grace, but that grace is dependent upon what we do, then your faith is not in Christ and Him crucified, but faith is in US! and what we can do. very scary doctrine of Grace, if I earn my Grace then it is no more unmerited Love, for I have earned it. to believe that salvation can be earned by repenting is the same to believe that one can buy or earn the Gift of God.

Acts 8:20

20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.

KJV

Scriptures says to "WORK OUT' your salvation. not "WORK FOR" V. McGee says that lordship salvation spells salvation different than Faith alone salvation. they spell it "DO" Christ left us something to do, we spell it "DONE" He done it all!

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The crux of it is that if we are to deny the Lordship of God Most High, what are we doing claiming to be His followers, as Christians are supposed to be?   This is what must be settled once and for all.

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We grow in grace while accepting ALL of God's grace to us in that, as Nebula already expressed, Christ died for us while we were still sinners.

 

The Bible is clear that one who is truly born again will not continue to live a deliberate lifestyle of sin as they did before they believed.

 

Sometimes people argue over semantics as though salvation depended on just the right combination of words.

 

That being said, no once stops sinning in order to be saved and being saved does not mean you automatically stop sinning.  The Holy Spirit deals with each of us and we are not all off an assembly line.

 

I've never heard of 'Lordship Salvation' and to be honest, I am almost exhausted with reading and hearing about new terms and phrases that cannot be found in scripture.

 

While the work of the Holy Spirit is profound and even above all we understand, the gospel itself is very simple as Christ declared salvation complete in Him when He declared

"It is finished" at the time He surrendered His life into God's hands.

 

I would say we all surrender our lives in much the same way as we do not know and cannot see the road before us that God will place our feet upon as we give our lives to Him.

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No no, unless there is repentance first.  God gives us grace through faith to save us from sin, not so that we could continue in sin.  It is an ongoing work, and culminates in spiritual perfection.

 

Do you believe that there is no need for repentance?

A need in what sense? For salvation? Is this a precondition for salvation or a response to salvation?

 

rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

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Romans 10: says we must believe with the Heart that God hath raised Him from the dead and confess with our mouth Him, Lord.

the problem with Lordship salvation is one gets the cart in front of the horse. and preach that there is something we can do to get saved or there is things we have to do to keep ourselves saved ...

... otherwise known as Galatianism.

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Lordship salvation is NOT the belief that you have to stop sinning as a pre-condition for salvation.  Repentance from sin is part of accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior.   When we accept Jesus, we are accepting Him as Savior AND Lord.   The Bible says that God is calling on all people to repent.  Repentance is our response to the Gospel.  The first thing we should do is repent of our sin, turn from our sin and turn to Jesus.

 

Lordship salvation is about there being a changed life when we are saved.  If a person claims to be a Christian but doesn't bear the fruit of repentance, if there isn't a change, and a sincere desire to serve the Lord, such a person needs to reexamine the authenticity of their profession of faith.

 

No one has to be perfect and submitted to God in every area of their life in order to get saved, but there should be a daily desire to continue surrendering to Jesus as Lord.  If one rejects Jesus as Lord, there is a strong likelihood, they never got saved.   Jesus Saviorship and Lordship are a "package deal" so to speak.  You can't receive Him as Savior and reject Him as Lord.

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First we believe that He is. There is a God Who hears us and is concerned with out lives.

Soon after the Holy Spirit comes to convict of sin, of righteousness and of judgement. He points out sin in our lives. We respond by abhoring our sin, turning away from it in our hearts, and turning toward God asking Him to forgive us and help us. Repentance, as said, is turning away from sin and turning toward God, but all of this is a gift from God and is not a work.

When Peter went to the house of Cornelius and preached to them, they responded by being filled with the Holy Spirit. Peter went back to the Jews and told all that took place saying that God had GRANTED THEM REPENTANCE. A grant is a gift just as faith is a gift. No works are involved, just a changed mind and a changed heart. It is being converted. Acts 3:19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out. 2 Corinthians 7:10 For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation. 2 Tim. 2:25 In humility correcting those who are in opposition, if GOD PERHAPS WILL GRANT THEM REPENTANCE so that they man know the truth.

Yes we are saved by grace through faith, it is a gift from God not of works lest any many should boast. However,, repentance is also a part of salvation, and it also is a gift and is not a work.

I used to attend a church that did not teach repentance. It just told people to ask Jesus to come into your hearts and be baptized. There was so much sin in that church, I don't know where to start. A man was having an affair with his sister in law which eventually broke up both marriages. Gossip was condoned. So many lies. It sounded like the Corinthian church. Church money was mishandled. It was so sad. One day I realized that I had never heard repentance preached in that church! It is no more. It died.

So just as faith is a gift from God leading to salvation, so also repentance is a gift granted by God leading to salvation.

However, making restitution, ceasing from deliberate sin, confessing that Jesus is Savior and Lord, and Baptism are works that do not earn salvation but are produced by our salvation.

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Repentance in response to salvation makes sense to me. I don't think it makes sense to have it be a precondition to salvation, repent and then maybe you can be saved, sort of thing. That is where I am unclear as to how lordship salvation works with this. I read a couple things about it last night and it seems like a very fine line to walk.

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If you do not let Jesus be the Lord of your life, and follow his commands, he will not save you.    You can not do anything to save yourself, but if you do not do the things he has given us to do, he will reject you.

 

He has told that that if we practice iniquity he never knew us and would not be saved.

 

It is a dangerous thing to tell someone that all they have to do to be saved is believe and not go into what that "believe" entails.

 

Knowing that Jesus is the Son of God and came here to save us and professing that will not get you into heaven.    Only those who "do" the will of his Father is accepted.

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what I find a bit odd is the notion that someone could sincerely believe, and have this sort of faith, and God would not convict that person. What about the power of the Spirit over the lives of believers? I don't think anyone who is a sincere believer would be allowed to merely sit still?

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Repentance in response to salvation makes sense to me. I don't think it makes sense to have it be a precondition to salvation, repent and then maybe you can be saved, sort of thing. That is where I am unclear as to how lordship salvation works with this. I read a couple things about it last night and it seems like a very fine line to walk.

 

Mark 1:14-15

14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,

15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

 

 

 

Also I believe scripture says to repent and be saved, not maybe :)

 

 

 

what I find a bit odd is the notion that someone could sincerely believe, and have this sort of faith, and God would not convict that person. What about the power of the Spirit over the lives of believers? I don't think anyone who is a sincere believer would be allowed to merely sit still?

 

Please explain this, I have not grasped your meaning here :)

 

 

 

 

Blessings!

Edited by *Zion*
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I believe the conflict here is whether the change comes from within or from without.

 

Some theology seems to come across as change the fruit to change the heart. But that's backwards.

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If you do not let Jesus be the Lord of your life, and follow his commands, he will not save you.    You can not do anything to save yourself, but if you do not do the things he has given us to do, he will reject you.

 

He has told that that if we practice iniquity he never knew us and would not be saved.

 

It is a dangerous thing to tell someone that all they have to do to be saved is believe and not go into what that "believe" entails.

 

Knowing that Jesus is the Son of God and came here to save us and professing that will not get you into heaven.    Only those who "do" the will of his Father is accepted.

It's not just knowing -- which is Gnosticism, the most ancient Christian heresy -- but believing.

Acts 16:30-31: He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"

They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved--you and your household" (Amplified Bible).

Where "believe" means to "give yourself up to Him" (Joseph Thayer, A Greek-English Lexicon) and remove yourself from your own keeping and entrust yourself to His keeping (Ken Wuest, Word Studies).

And adding anything to that is still Galatianism: saved by grace, kept by works!

BTW, Galatians is the only letter where Paul never thanked his congregation.

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Rom. 10:14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of who they have not heard? . We must believe in order to call on God for forgiveness. Heb 11:6 But without faith it unpossible to please Him, for he who comes to God MUST BELIEVE THAT HE IS, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

First we believe that He is and that He personally hears us. But when the Holy Spirit comes to us He convicts of sin, righteousness and judgement. That is when we start to hate our sinful lifestyle and turn to Christ for forgiveness. This alone is repentance. It is a change of attitude. John the Baptist was yelling at the pharasees to produce fruit worthy of repentance. Matt. 3:8. The fruit is the WORKS that FOLLOW repentance. Again, both saving faith and repentance (changing our minds about sin and turning to Christ for forgiveness) are GRANTED by God. A grant is a gift usually based on need. A schollarship is based on merit. God grants us faith and repentance because we need them.

However, we are saved that we may bear fruit. Eph. 2:10 For we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Or else we get called a brood of vipers by John the Baptist! lol. When we abide in Christ we cannot help but bear fruit. It comes naturally and effortless with the life of Christ flowing through us and as our attitudes, motives and desires change. Usually we are unaware of it. When we TRY to bear fruit it is self effort which will not be rewarded or we will have no reason to cast our crowns before Christ.--we will think we actually earned them. I do not believe believe that anyone is perfect on earth but Christ. Following Christ is like a treasure hunt--one step at a time. When we obey we get another clue. It is an adventure with challanges and surprise. It is never boring. Even when it is trusting God during root canals.

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Lordship salvation is NOT the belief that you have to stop sinning as a pre-condition for salvation.  Repentance from sin is part of accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior.   When we accept Jesus, we are accepting Him as Savior AND Lord.   The Bible says that God is calling on all people to repent.  Repentance is our response to the Gospel.  The first thing we should do is repent of our sin, turn from our sin and turn to Jesus.

 

Lordship salvation is about there being a changed life when we are saved.  If a person claims to be a Christian but doesn't bear the fruit of repentance, if there isn't a change, and a sincere desire to serve the Lord, such a person needs to reexamine the authenticity of their profession of faith.

 

No one has to be perfect and submitted to God in every area of their life in order to get saved, but there should be a daily desire to continue surrendering to Jesus as Lord.  If one rejects Jesus as Lord, there is a strong likelihood, they never got saved.   Jesus Saviorship and Lordship are a "package deal" so to speak.  You can't receive Him as Savior and reject Him as Lord.

I agree with Shiloh. My understanding is that Lordship Salvation is a response to cheap grace theology, also known as easy-believism. I did not think that simple Lordship salvational teaching includes works-based salvation or sanctification. If it does, I do not believe in that aspect. What I do believe is that Jesus is not your savior if He is not your Lord. The idea here is that Jesus is most certainly the Master, Lord, King, and God over every man. One must recognize this in order to understand who it is that died for you and why his blood is worth enough to pay for the sins of all mankind! It is not enough to just believe in propositional truths of the historic earthly life and death and resurrection of Jesus. We must place our trust (faith) in Him and Him alone as the way, truth and life. His Lordship over all creation and over each of us as individuals is not a negotiable point. Every knee must bow and every tongue confess that.......JESUS IS LORD!!! Bowing the knee is humbly submitting to your Boss, your Master, your King, your Lord.

The beauty of the New Covenant is that Jesus will put the Spirit inside of he who submits to Him, in order to both inform and empower that person. The law was good, but it lacked this ability to give essential grace, and Jesus made a way for us to live and walk pleasing to him by the Spirit! God now works in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure. This is empowering grace! The hook is that this grace is available only through submitting to Him, not by merely admitting that Jesus is real (the demons do that...and shudder at the thought!)

If there are forms of Lordship salvation teaching that go beyond this and preach a series of works in order to be saved, I would oppose that. Recognizing Jesus as the Lord of the universe and bowing your knee (surrendering to Him) is NOT a "work"!!! Neither is repenting of your filthy sinfulness, or asking Christ to forgive you. These are responses of the conscience and heart which Jesus repeatedly commanded people to have towards Him, not works. If we call these "works", we are getting into hyper-calvinism and error.

He is Lord and I am not!!

Andy

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I agree with Shiloh. My understanding is that Lordship Salvation is a response to cheap grace theology, also known as easy-believism. I did not think that simple Lordship salvational teaching includes works-based salvation or sanctification. If it does, I do not believe in that aspect. What I do believe is that Jesus is not your savior if He is not your Lord. The idea here is that Jesus is most certainly the Master, Lord, King, and God over every man. One must recognize this in order to understand who it is that died for you and why his blood is worth enough to pay for the sins of all mankind!

 

I totally agree with everything in your post, but I have highlighted that which I was trying to express in my original post.  Thanks for saying it right, brother! 

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I admit I find the discussion here confusing. IF it is the case that Jesus alone saves us, and through this particular faith, then those are the necessary and sufficient conditions. I don't think anyone would contest that fruits of the Spirit would follow, including repentance from sins over time.

 

But if everyone agrees about that, what is so unique about 'lordship salvation'? Why even invent the term?

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I admit I find the discussion here confusing. IF it is the case that Jesus alone saves us, and through this particular faith, then those are the necessary and sufficient conditions. I don't think anyone would contest that fruits of the Spirit would follow, including repentance from sins over time.

 

But if everyone agrees about that, what is so unique about 'lordship salvation'? Why even invent the term?

Did u catch my post, alpha? The term was in response to the amazing glut of cheap grace theology and evangelism that has run amok in recent decades. Unfortunately, we all do NOT agree on soteriology (the doctrines of salvation)

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