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The King James Bible controversy


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#21
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:sad030: ......anyone around?


(a) The Life of Erasmus—A Brief Review

Erasmus was born at Rotterdam in 1466, the illegitimate son of a priest but well cared for by his parents. After their early death he was given the best education available to a young man of his day at first at Deventer and then at the Augustinian monastery at Steyn. In 1492 he was ordained priest, but there is no record that he ever functioned as such. By 1495 he was studying in Paris. In 1499 he went to England, where he made the helpful friendship of John Colet, later dean of St. Paul's who quickened his interest in biblical studies. He then went back to France and the Netherlands. In 1505 he again visited England and then passed three years in Italy. In 1509 he returned to England for the third time and taught at Cambridge University until 1514. In 1515 he went to Basel, where he published his New Testament in 1516, then back to the Netherlands for a sojourn at the University of Louvain. Then he returned to Basel in 1521 and remained there until 1529, in which year he removed to the imperial town of Freiburg-im-Breisgau. Finally, in 1535, he again returned to Basel and died there the following year in the midst of his Protestant friends, without relations of any sort, so far as known, with the Roman Catholic Church. (3)

One might think that all this moving around would have interfered with Erasmus' activity as a scholar and writer, but quite the reverse is true. By his travels he was brought into contact with all the intellectual currents of his time and stimulated to almost superhuman efforts. He became the most famous scholar and author of his day and one of the most prolific writers of all time, his collected works filling ten large volumes in the Leclerc edition of 1705 (phototyped by Olms in 1962). (4) As an editor also his productivity was tremendous. Ten columns of the catalogue of the library in the British Museum are taken up with the bare enumeration of the works translated, edited, or annotated by Erasmus, and their subsequent reprints. Included are the greatest names of the classical and patristic world, such as Ambrose, Aristotle, Augustine, Basil, Chrysostom, Cicero, and Jerome. (5) An almost unbelievable showing.

To conclude, there was no man in all Europe better prepared than Erasmus for the work of editing the first printed Greek New Testament text, and this is why, we may well believe, God chose him and directed him providentially in the accomplishment of this task.

http://www.jesus-is-...apter_eight.htm

#22
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Erasmus published five editions of the New Testament in Greek. They were brought out successively in 1516, 1519, 1522, 1527 and 1535. His first two editions did not contain I John 5:7 although the reading had been found in many non-Greek texts dating back as early as 150 A.D. Erasmus desired to include the verse but knew the conflict that would rage if he did so without at least one Greek manuscript for authority. Following the publication of his second edition, which like his first consisted of both the Greek New Testament and his own Latin translation, he said that he would include I John 5:7 in his next edition if just one Greek manuscript could be found which contained it. Opponents of the reading today erringly charge that the two manuscripts found had been specially produced just to oblige Erasmus's request, but this charge has never been validated and was not held at the time of Erasmus's work.


Aha...there is life out there. :)

It would have been good if you had a few thoughts of your own mind, rather than a complete cut and paste reply bro.

In the passage above concerning the “Johannine Comma”, could you kindly point me to the MANY non-Greek texts where this alternate reading can be found,
as I want to check if these are credible sources, and why they are not referred to as if authorative...thanks.

I believe Erasmus reluctantly included this passage in his third addition, but also included a foot-note about this passage in his book of annotations, where he expresses
his concern that this so-called Greek manuscript was indeed a forgery made to order by a friar over in Oxford, England...where it is now on permanent display.
So I don't think the controversy surrounding this passage is merely because people are trying to discount the KJV...but because the great man himself expressed
serious mis-givings and felt cheated or conned by all acounts.

More later

#23
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Erasmus published five editions of the New Testament in Greek. They were brought out successively in 1516, 1519, 1522, 1527 and 1535. His first two editions did not contain I John 5:7 although the reading had been found in many non-Greek texts dating back as early as 150 A.D. Erasmus desired to include the verse but knew the conflict that would rage if he did so without at least one Greek manuscript for authority. Following the publication of his second edition, which like his first consisted of both the Greek New Testament and his own Latin translation, he said that he would include I John 5:7 in his next edition if just one Greek manuscript could be found which contained it. Opponents of the reading today erringly charge that the two manuscripts found had been specially produced just to oblige Erasmus's request, but this charge has never been validated and was not held at the time of Erasmus's work.


In the passage above concerning the “Johannine Comma”, could you kindly point me to the MANY non-Greek texts where this alternate reading can be found,
as I want to check if these are credible sources, and why they are not referred to as if authorative...thanks.


it is in either the Syrian MSS (Peshitta) 100-200AD or the old latin and syriac of originals 100-200AD or the Papyri MSS 150-400AD or the Uncial and Cursive MSS 150-1500AD so i would start their in searching for it.

I believe Erasmus reluctantly included this passage in his third addition, but also included a foot-note about this passage in his book of annotations, where he expresses
his concern that this so-called Greek manuscript was indeed a forgery made to order by a friar over in Oxford, England...where it is now on permanent display.
So I don't think the controversy surrounding this passage is merely because people are trying to discount the KJV...but because the great man himself expressed
serious mis-givings and felt cheated or conned by all accounts.


Yes Erasmus was not perfect but i dont know what Erasmus thought of 1 John 5:7 so i will do some investigating.

#24
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Anyway i have this to add, i do like Bible Numerics and the Patterns only found in the Authorized King James Bible. Hmmm Divine Inspiration for You perhaps?

The very first version of the written Word of God was the Ten Commandments. God has placed a very important value on the Ten Commandments, for we find them located in the 70th chapter of the Bible, Exodus 20. The Bible mentions that they were written on "tables of stone". In fact, the Bible mentions 14 (7 x 2) times that they are written on "tables of stone". Also, in the 70th chapter of the New Testament (John 2), you will find the very first miracle that Jesus performed.

It is clear that the words, phrases, verses, chapters, and books of the Bible have been arranged in a perfect order. It would be impossible for men to manipulate a group of documents in this manner, especially men who, in many cases, lived thousands of years apart. How do we know which "Word of God" to use? We are told that Jesus is the Word of God in John 1:1. In 1 John 5:7 He is also given that title: "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." It seems odd that most modern translations omit verse 7, or place a note by it that says this passage does not appear in some Greek texts! This phrase is found exactly 49 times (7 x 7) in the Authorized Version of the Bible!

Jesus and the Bible are forever linked. They are, in reality, the same thing. He is truly the Word of God. The title, "the Word", given to Jesus, is found 7 times in 5 verses, including being found in 1 John 5:7 (also see John 1:1; 1:14; 1 John 1:1; and Rev. 19:13)! Do we yet not believe that the Hand of God was on these men as they compiled and translated this sacred book? Does the Bible you read and trust contain this Divine pattern?

The number 49 (7 x 7) is a tremendous number, for it compounds the idea of completion that we find in the number 7. This equation is found in the text of the Scriptures themselves: "And thou shalt number seven sabbaths of years unto thee, seven times seven years; and the space of the seven sabbaths of years shall be unto thee forty and nine years" (Leviticus. 25:8). Since this number is important to God, it is reasonable to assume that His Word and His Son are associated with the number 7.

The Bible itself states that the Word of God is a book of parables. The word "parable" is found 49 times. The word "parable" is found 7 times in the book of Numbers. All of them are found in chapters 23 and 24, and all of them are spoken by Balaam, with the first time being in verse 7. In Psalm 78 we are told that God speaks His Word by means of the parable, and we are also told that all the words of Jesus are in parable form: "All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them" (Matthew 13:34).

#25
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Yes Erasmus was not perfect but i dont know what Erasmus thought of 1 John 5:7 so i will do some investigating.


I was wondering how your research is going, because if Erasmus himself was not happy with his own contribution in 1 John 5:7, then it seems to
knock out everything KJOnlyists claim on his behalf?

Also there is absolutely no getting away from the fact that he was a Catholic, albeit a disgruntled one, and he believed in many tenets of Catholicism.
from what I have studied, his main beef was against the lives led by some of the leaders and dignataries in the Catholic tradition...so to say that
other bibles draw their theology from Catholicism is more of a pot-kettle-black syndrome.

In debating in this thread, and up till recently in the other one in the Controversy section...my main aim has not been to prove the King James Bible
wrong, but to show that along with every other translation it has strengths and weaknesses, and can be 'quirky', 'misleading', 'outdated' and 'poor'
in various passages and words employed in 17th century english.

The crux of the whole thing also revolves around the opposing strengths and weaknesses found in comparing the Majority Text against the Minor Text,
and so far I see very little difference that is note-worthy, despite the claims of people like Ruckman and Riplinger....so that takes me back to having
to refute the claims that the KJ translation is perfect.

I don't believe King James biblical numerics carries the weight you seem to think it does, at least not in translation, although I believe there are definately patterns
and spiritual mathematics going on in the words of G-d transmitted to man in both the Hebrew and the Greek, which help add a further dimension
in confirming the truth of the message. Every letter has weight and significance and is a mathematical revelation from the mind of G-d...the very
fact that both the Hebrew and the Greek support a numerical equivlence throughout the composition of their alphabets is itself an internal structure
that IMO is not overlooked by G-d and is utilised by the Holy Spirit.

In Hebraic thought, the study of numbers would probably be considered part of the 'sod' or hidden/secret methods behind the study of Scripture
that can open up new vistas and give a new and refreshing perspective that if treated properly leads to wonder and thus worship of the L-rd.

#26
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]I was wondering how your research is going, because if Erasmus himself was not happy with his own contribution in 1 John 5:7, then it seems to
knock out everything KJOnlyists claim on his behalf?

Also there is absolutely no getting away from the fact that he was a Catholic, albeit a disgruntled one, and he believed in many tenets of Catholicism.
from what I have studied, his main beef was against the lives led by some of the leaders and dignataries in the Catholic tradition...so to say that
other bibles draw their theology from Catholicism is more of a pot-kettle-black syndrome.


Well i dont believe that Erasmus was a Catholic when he said "vile" things about the Catholic Religion.

In debating in this thread, and up till recently in the other one in the Controversy section...my main aim has not been to prove the King James Bible
wrong, but to show that along with every other translation it has strengths and weaknesses, and can be 'quirky', 'misleading', 'outdated' and 'poor'
in various passages and words employed in 17th century english.

The crux of the whole thing also revolves around the opposing strengths and weaknesses found in comparing the Majority Text against the Minor Text,
and so far I see very little difference that is note-worthy, despite the claims of people like Ruckman and Riplinger....so that takes me back to having
to refute the claims that the KJ translation is perfect.


95% of manuscripts agree with the Majority Text and 5% with the Minority Text

I don't believe King James biblical numerics carries the weight you seem to think it does, at least not in translation, although I believe there are definitely patterns
and spiritual mathematics going on in the words of G-d transmitted to man in both the Hebrew and the Greek, which help add a further dimension
in confirming the truth of the message. Every letter has weight and significance and is a mathematical revelation from the mind of G-d...the very
fact that both the Hebrew and the Greek support a numerical equivlence throughout the composition of their alphabets is itself an internal structure
that IMO is not overlooked by G-d and is utilised by the Holy Spirit.


The thing that will be hard for You to do is refute the Biblical Numerics Patterns that Only Exist Perfectly in the KJV English Bible and No Other English Versions. i have never seen anyone refute it, it is powerful witness to the work of God in the KJV Bible. Since the Modern Versions cant do the numerics then there is a Major Problem their.


In Hebraic thought, the study of numbers would probably be considered part of the 'sod' or hidden/secret methods behind the study of Scripture
that can open up new vistas and give a new and refreshing perspective that if treated properly leads to wonder and thus worship of the L-rd.


No doubts the Bible Numerics is in the Hebrew too, God can do in English what He did in the Hebrew.

#27
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Hi bro, I don't think we are going to progress any further with this, if you are in agreement I think we will end it now as I am pretty busy
and just don't have the time or the inclination to pursue this any further....let me know what you think..

#28
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Sorry for not getting back to this sooner, i was thinking that we should end this debate too.

#29
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No worries....ended.

Thanks for taking part.




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