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Matthew 24:29-31, is this the rapture or second coming or both?

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#141
iamlamad

iamlamad

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Shalom, Enoch.

 

Roy, a pre-triber, has a habit of, when reading something in the Bible that don't fit their theology they just ignore it and try to convince everybody that what they just read means something other than what it says.

 

Actually, I'm NOT a "pre-tribber," although I am premillennial. I'm a POST-tribber, about as POST-trib as one can get! I believe that we are CURRENTLY in the tribulation and have been since 30 A.D! The Jews, including those who were followers of the true Messiah, were given a 40-year period to prepare for the worst, but it kicked into high gear in 70 A.D. and has been going on - off and on - since then! I believe that the "tribulation" (Greek: thlipsis = "pressure") is NOT the same thing as the seventieth Seven of Dani'el 9:27. Instead, I believe that the first half of the seventieth Seven was Yeshua`s "ministry" - His offer of the Kingdom to Isra'el - begun roughly in 26 A.D. and ended in 30 A.D. (a three-and-a-half-year period). The second half of the seventieth Seven will also be His offer of the Kingdom to Isra'el, but that won't begin UNTIL AFTER HE ARRIVES, and His arrival comes immediately after the end of the tribulation! I DO believe that the tribulation will crescendo before His arrival, but it is impossible (in my opinion) to pin it down to x number of years!

 

Secondly, I haven't found a thing in the Scriptures that doesn't fit into my "theology" ever since I kicked OUT my theology (which WAS pre-trib, by the way) and began re-buliding it from SCRATCH directly from the Scriptures back in 1977-8 when I was in my early 20's! I've learned quite a bit since then, and I'll admit I don't know it all, yet. There's much yet to learn, but by being able to throw everything out, I've been able to open myself to possibilities others are not willing to see, let alone consider!

 

So, please. Don't think you've got me "figured out" and pigeon-hole me into something I'm not!

Roy I have read enough of your posts to know that you are not a pre-triber, my comment was about the person you were talking to. Lamad is a hard core pre-triber, I have offered the truth to him several times, but he won't listen. I hold a lot of the same beliefs concerning the end times as you do Roy, the only view of the end times that answers all my questions is the post-trib view. If the pre-tribers would admit that the first resurrection happens at the second coming like the Bible says, they would forget the left behind series and prepare for the second coming of the Lord.

 

Ha ha ha! Enoch, you are absolutely comical at times! Yes, I am a hard core pretriber...you said that right! But WHY? It is because GOD is a hard core pretribber! The truth of scripture is pretrib. I had showed time and again that "first" resurrection means CHIEF resurrection, and that Jesus was the firstfruits of that same resurrection, but it is YOU who ignore truth. It is SO SIMPLE: there are two resurrections, one for the just and one for the unjust. Why is this difficult for you to understand? Anyone without preconceptions can undertstand that Jesus rose from the dead as the VERY FIRST to get a resurrection body. (that is what "first" of chief resurrection is all about. We know Jesus and Peter rose people from the dead, but NOT into resurrection bodies! There is NO TIMING GIVEN to the "first resurrection." That is something you assume, incorrectly. All the righteous will be a part of this first or chief resurrection, which started with Jesus.

 

If you would really study the rapture scriptures from Paul, the ONLY writer of the New Testament who received revelation on the rapture, you too would be pretrib. If you try to find the rapture of the church in other places, you and all others will end up confused (which is seems you are.) The rapture is NOT IN Revelation. Especially not in chapter 20. That is totally mans reasoning. The rapture is not found in the gospels; again man's reasoning. Anyone would get confused of they looked for the rapture of the church, during the Old Covenant scriptures! It is not there. Yes, there are gatherings, but NOt the rapture.

 

I have one question for you; are you really following this verse - or just ignoring it because it does not fit your theory?

 

Luk. 21:36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

 

ARe you praying to be counted worthy to escape? Or are you in rebellion to this verse because you cannot believe it?

 

Lamad

 

Lamad  the verse you would do well to try and understand is Blessed and Holy are the ones included in the first resurrection, Rev.20 . 

 

The Bible says Only 2 resurrections of a massive amount of bodies remain in our future, they are both described in Rev. 20, the rapture has to be involved with the one called the first resurrection, not at some fantasy resurrection not mentioned in the Bible. It doesn't matter how much the pre-tribbers try and spin the Bible passages into something that tickles the ear, the fact remains, the first resurrection is when the rapture happens, not anytime pre-trib. And there can be only 1 first, not a dozen firsts and 1 second.   

 

Why is this so hard for you to understand? There is one resurrection for the righteous, and one for the unrighteous. That is as plain as day. What you are missing is that Jesus was the VERY FIRST ONE to be resurrected in the "first resurrection." Those that rose with Him from the Old Covenant were secondfruits, theirfruits, fourthfruits, etc. of the SAME first resurrection. Soon the Dead in Christ will become fruits of that same "first resurrection" just before the 70th week begins.  After that the 144,000 will become a part of it, around the midpoint of the 70th week. Then at the 7th vial, the Old Testament saints rise, and they also will be a part of the "first resurrection." Perhaps at the same time, those beheaded during the week will be resurrected. They too are a part of the "first resurrection." It is the resurrection for the righteous. But it comes in WAVES. Your mistake? Trying to pin down the "first resurrection" to a time. Jesus was the FIRST human in the "first resurrection."

 

There is no "fantasy" time for the rapture, there is PAUL's time. If you miss it, and get left behind, you have only yourself to blame, for Paul wrote it very clearly. A 5th grader could get it, because they would read with no preconceptions. Paul's rapture comes as the TRIGGER for the signs of the Day as is written at the 6th seal. John saw the raptured church in heaven shortely thereafter in Chapter 7. End of story, case closed. God is pretrib. If you are not, you are outside of what God believes.

 

Lamad



#142
ENOCH2010

ENOCH2010

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Shalom, Enoch.

 

Roy, a pre-triber, has a habit of, when reading something in the Bible that don't fit their theology they just ignore it and try to convince everybody that what they just read means something other than what it says.

 

Actually, I'm NOT a "pre-tribber," although I am premillennial. I'm a POST-tribber, about as POST-trib as one can get! I believe that we are CURRENTLY in the tribulation and have been since 30 A.D! The Jews, including those who were followers of the true Messiah, were given a 40-year period to prepare for the worst, but it kicked into high gear in 70 A.D. and has been going on - off and on - since then! I believe that the "tribulation" (Greek: thlipsis = "pressure") is NOT the same thing as the seventieth Seven of Dani'el 9:27. Instead, I believe that the first half of the seventieth Seven was Yeshua`s "ministry" - His offer of the Kingdom to Isra'el - begun roughly in 26 A.D. and ended in 30 A.D. (a three-and-a-half-year period). The second half of the seventieth Seven will also be His offer of the Kingdom to Isra'el, but that won't begin UNTIL AFTER HE ARRIVES, and His arrival comes immediately after the end of the tribulation! I DO believe that the tribulation will crescendo before His arrival, but it is impossible (in my opinion) to pin it down to x number of years!

 

Secondly, I haven't found a thing in the Scriptures that doesn't fit into my "theology" ever since I kicked OUT my theology (which WAS pre-trib, by the way) and began re-buliding it from SCRATCH directly from the Scriptures back in 1977-8 when I was in my early 20's! I've learned quite a bit since then, and I'll admit I don't know it all, yet. There's much yet to learn, but by being able to throw everything out, I've been able to open myself to possibilities others are not willing to see, let alone consider!

 

So, please. Don't think you've got me "figured out" and pigeon-hole me into something I'm not!

Roy I have read enough of your posts to know that you are not a pre-triber, my comment was about the person you were talking to. Lamad is a hard core pre-triber, I have offered the truth to him several times, but he won't listen. I hold a lot of the same beliefs concerning the end times as you do Roy, the only view of the end times that answers all my questions is the post-trib view. If the pre-tribers would admit that the first resurrection happens at the second coming like the Bible says, they would forget the left behind series and prepare for the second coming of the Lord.

 

Ha ha ha! Enoch, you are absolutely comical at times! Yes, I am a hard core pretriber...you said that right! But WHY? It is because GOD is a hard core pretribber! The truth of scripture is pretrib. I had showed time and again that "first" resurrection means CHIEF resurrection, and that Jesus was the firstfruits of that same resurrection, but it is YOU who ignore truth. It is SO SIMPLE: there are two resurrections, one for the just and one for the unjust. Why is this difficult for you to understand? Anyone without preconceptions can undertstand that Jesus rose from the dead as the VERY FIRST to get a resurrection body. (that is what "first" of chief resurrection is all about. We know Jesus and Peter rose people from the dead, but NOT into resurrection bodies! There is NO TIMING GIVEN to the "first resurrection." That is something you assume, incorrectly. All the righteous will be a part of this first or chief resurrection, which started with Jesus.

 

If you would really study the rapture scriptures from Paul, the ONLY writer of the New Testament who received revelation on the rapture, you too would be pretrib. If you try to find the rapture of the church in other places, you and all others will end up confused (which is seems you are.) The rapture is NOT IN Revelation. Especially not in chapter 20. That is totally mans reasoning. The rapture is not found in the gospels; again man's reasoning. Anyone would get confused of they looked for the rapture of the church, during the Old Covenant scriptures! It is not there. Yes, there are gatherings, but NOt the rapture.

 

I have one question for you; are you really following this verse - or just ignoring it because it does not fit your theory?

 

Luk. 21:36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

 

ARe you praying to be counted worthy to escape? Or are you in rebellion to this verse because you cannot believe it?

 

Lamad

 

Lamad  the verse you would do well to try and understand is Blessed and Holy are the ones included in the first resurrection, Rev.20 . 

 

The Bible says Only 2 resurrections of a massive amount of bodies remain in our future, they are both described in Rev. 20, the rapture has to be involved with the one called the first resurrection, not at some fantasy resurrection not mentioned in the Bible. It doesn't matter how much the pre-tribbers try and spin the Bible passages into something that tickles the ear, the fact remains, the first resurrection is when the rapture happens, not anytime pre-trib. And there can be only 1 first, not a dozen firsts and 1 second.   

 

Why is this so hard for you to understand? There is one resurrection for the righteous, and one for the unrighteous. That is as plain as day. What you are missing is that Jesus was the VERY FIRST ONE to be resurrected in the "first resurrection." Those that rose with Him from the Old Covenant were secondfruits, theirfruits, fourthfruits, etc. of the SAME first resurrection. Soon the Dead in Christ will become fruits of that same "first resurrection" just before the 70th week begins.  After that the 144,000 will become a part of it, around the midpoint of the 70th week. Then at the 7th vial, the Old Testament saints rise, and they also will be a part of the "first resurrection." Perhaps at the same time, those beheaded during the week will be resurrected. They too are a part of the "first resurrection." It is the resurrection for the righteous. But it comes in WAVES. Your mistake? Trying to pin down the "first resurrection" to a time. Jesus was the FIRST human in the "first resurrection."

 

There is no "fantasy" time for the rapture, there is PAUL's time. If you miss it, and get left behind, you have only yourself to blame, for Paul wrote it very clearly. A 5th grader could get it, because they would read with no preconceptions. Paul's rapture comes as the TRIGGER for the signs of the Day as is written at the 6th seal. John saw the raptured church in heaven shortely thereafter in Chapter 7. End of story, case closed. God is pretrib. If you are not, you are outside of what God believes.

 

Lamad

 

The fantasy you are claiming isn't the rapture Lamad. The fantasy is that there will be a dozen or so first resurrections when the Bible says there will be only 1 and the Bible plainly says it will be at the second coming of the Lord. If the pre-tribbers would receive the Bible for what it says, not for what they wish it said, there wouldn't be so much confusion coming from the pulpit.



#143
iamlamad

iamlamad

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Shalom, Enoch.

 

Roy, a pre-triber, has a habit of, when reading something in the Bible that don't fit their theology they just ignore it and try to convince everybody that what they just read means something other than what it says.

 

Actually, I'm NOT a "pre-tribber," although I am premillennial. I'm a POST-tribber, about as POST-trib as one can get! I believe that we are CURRENTLY in the tribulation and have been since 30 A.D! The Jews, including those who were followers of the true Messiah, were given a 40-year period to prepare for the worst, but it kicked into high gear in 70 A.D. and has been going on - off and on - since then! I believe that the "tribulation" (Greek: thlipsis = "pressure") is NOT the same thing as the seventieth Seven of Dani'el 9:27. Instead, I believe that the first half of the seventieth Seven was Yeshua`s "ministry" - His offer of the Kingdom to Isra'el - begun roughly in 26 A.D. and ended in 30 A.D. (a three-and-a-half-year period). The second half of the seventieth Seven will also be His offer of the Kingdom to Isra'el, but that won't begin UNTIL AFTER HE ARRIVES, and His arrival comes immediately after the end of the tribulation! I DO believe that the tribulation will crescendo before His arrival, but it is impossible (in my opinion) to pin it down to x number of years!

 

Secondly, I haven't found a thing in the Scriptures that doesn't fit into my "theology" ever since I kicked OUT my theology (which WAS pre-trib, by the way) and began re-buliding it from SCRATCH directly from the Scriptures back in 1977-8 when I was in my early 20's! I've learned quite a bit since then, and I'll admit I don't know it all, yet. There's much yet to learn, but by being able to throw everything out, I've been able to open myself to possibilities others are not willing to see, let alone consider!

 

So, please. Don't think you've got me "figured out" and pigeon-hole me into something I'm not!

Roy I have read enough of your posts to know that you are not a pre-triber, my comment was about the person you were talking to. Lamad is a hard core pre-triber, I have offered the truth to him several times, but he won't listen. I hold a lot of the same beliefs concerning the end times as you do Roy, the only view of the end times that answers all my questions is the post-trib view. If the pre-tribers would admit that the first resurrection happens at the second coming like the Bible says, they would forget the left behind series and prepare for the second coming of the Lord.

 

Ha ha ha! Enoch, you are absolutely comical at times! Yes, I am a hard core pretriber...you said that right! But WHY? It is because GOD is a hard core pretribber! The truth of scripture is pretrib. I had showed time and again that "first" resurrection means CHIEF resurrection, and that Jesus was the firstfruits of that same resurrection, but it is YOU who ignore truth. It is SO SIMPLE: there are two resurrections, one for the just and one for the unjust. Why is this difficult for you to understand? Anyone without preconceptions can undertstand that Jesus rose from the dead as the VERY FIRST to get a resurrection body. (that is what "first" of chief resurrection is all about. We know Jesus and Peter rose people from the dead, but NOT into resurrection bodies! There is NO TIMING GIVEN to the "first resurrection." That is something you assume, incorrectly. All the righteous will be a part of this first or chief resurrection, which started with Jesus.

 

If you would really study the rapture scriptures from Paul, the ONLY writer of the New Testament who received revelation on the rapture, you too would be pretrib. If you try to find the rapture of the church in other places, you and all others will end up confused (which is seems you are.) The rapture is NOT IN Revelation. Especially not in chapter 20. That is totally mans reasoning. The rapture is not found in the gospels; again man's reasoning. Anyone would get confused of they looked for the rapture of the church, during the Old Covenant scriptures! It is not there. Yes, there are gatherings, but NOt the rapture.

 

I have one question for you; are you really following this verse - or just ignoring it because it does not fit your theory?

 

Luk. 21:36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

 

ARe you praying to be counted worthy to escape? Or are you in rebellion to this verse because you cannot believe it?

 

Lamad

 

Lamad  the verse you would do well to try and understand is Blessed and Holy are the ones included in the first resurrection, Rev.20 . 

 

The Bible says Only 2 resurrections of a massive amount of bodies remain in our future, they are both described in Rev. 20, the rapture has to be involved with the one called the first resurrection, not at some fantasy resurrection not mentioned in the Bible. It doesn't matter how much the pre-tribbers try and spin the Bible passages into something that tickles the ear, the fact remains, the first resurrection is when the rapture happens, not anytime pre-trib. And there can be only 1 first, not a dozen firsts and 1 second.   

 

Why is this so hard for you to understand? There is one resurrection for the righteous, and one for the unrighteous. That is as plain as day. What you are missing is that Jesus was the VERY FIRST ONE to be resurrected in the "first resurrection." Those that rose with Him from the Old Covenant were secondfruits, theirfruits, fourthfruits, etc. of the SAME first resurrection. Soon the Dead in Christ will become fruits of that same "first resurrection" just before the 70th week begins.  After that the 144,000 will become a part of it, around the midpoint of the 70th week. Then at the 7th vial, the Old Testament saints rise, and they also will be a part of the "first resurrection." Perhaps at the same time, those beheaded during the week will be resurrected. They too are a part of the "first resurrection." It is the resurrection for the righteous. But it comes in WAVES. Your mistake? Trying to pin down the "first resurrection" to a time. Jesus was the FIRST human in the "first resurrection."

 

There is no "fantasy" time for the rapture, there is PAUL's time. If you miss it, and get left behind, you have only yourself to blame, for Paul wrote it very clearly. A 5th grader could get it, because they would read with no preconceptions. Paul's rapture comes as the TRIGGER for the signs of the Day as is written at the 6th seal. John saw the raptured church in heaven shortely thereafter in Chapter 7. End of story, case closed. God is pretrib. If you are not, you are outside of what God believes.

 

Lamad

 

The fantasy you are claiming isn't the rapture Lamad. The fantasy is that there will be a dozen or so first resurrections when the Bible says there will be only 1 and the Bible plainly says it will be at the second coming of the Lord. If the pre-tribbers would receive the Bible for what it says, not for what they wish it said, there wouldn't be so much confusion coming from the pulpit.

 

Sorry, but the word of God does NOT say there will be only ONE (1) resurrection - happening at one moment in time! That is where you have missed it big time. If you could read Greek, you would know it does not mean there is only single moment for the chief resurrection.

 

Do you believe Jesus rose from the dead with a resurrection body?

 

If there is only ONE resurrection from flesh and blood into a resurrection body, then Jesus had to be a part of it, by process of elimination: you say there was NO OTHER. In your case then, Jesus never rose.

 

Go to Blueletter bible, and look up the Greek word translated as "first." You will see it has DIFFERENT meanings. If you understand ANYTHING about the end times, you know there are different times for different resurrections. For example, the 144000 are seen on earth being sealed, and the next time they are seen around the throne in heaven. They were resurrected. Paul's rapture/resurrection comes as the trigger for the Day of the Lord, which John tells us begins LONG before your "first" resurrection.  Do you understand, you are basing your false theory on ONE WORD? And in doing this, are ignoring many verses that prove your theory wrong.

 

You can be wrong if you want to be. On the other hand, you can study and meditate on Paul's rapture until you understand what he wrote. It is impossible to fit what Paul wrote in 1 Thes. 5 into a posttrib rapture. 

 

YOu still did not answer the question:  ARe you praying to be counted worthy to escape? Or are you in rebellion to this verse because you cannot believe it?  Read it again: Luke 21:36. Since you did not answer, I assume you are in rebellion against this verse, because it simply does not fit your theory.

 

Lamad



#144
ENOCH2010

ENOCH2010

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Shalom, Enoch.

 

Roy, a pre-triber, has a habit of, when reading something in the Bible that don't fit their theology they just ignore it and try to convince everybody that what they just read means something other than what it says.

 

Actually, I'm NOT a "pre-tribber," although I am premillennial. I'm a POST-tribber, about as POST-trib as one can get! I believe that we are CURRENTLY in the tribulation and have been since 30 A.D! The Jews, including those who were followers of the true Messiah, were given a 40-year period to prepare for the worst, but it kicked into high gear in 70 A.D. and has been going on - off and on - since then! I believe that the "tribulation" (Greek: thlipsis = "pressure") is NOT the same thing as the seventieth Seven of Dani'el 9:27. Instead, I believe that the first half of the seventieth Seven was Yeshua`s "ministry" - His offer of the Kingdom to Isra'el - begun roughly in 26 A.D. and ended in 30 A.D. (a three-and-a-half-year period). The second half of the seventieth Seven will also be His offer of the Kingdom to Isra'el, but that won't begin UNTIL AFTER HE ARRIVES, and His arrival comes immediately after the end of the tribulation! I DO believe that the tribulation will crescendo before His arrival, but it is impossible (in my opinion) to pin it down to x number of years!

 

Secondly, I haven't found a thing in the Scriptures that doesn't fit into my "theology" ever since I kicked OUT my theology (which WAS pre-trib, by the way) and began re-buliding it from SCRATCH directly from the Scriptures back in 1977-8 when I was in my early 20's! I've learned quite a bit since then, and I'll admit I don't know it all, yet. There's much yet to learn, but by being able to throw everything out, I've been able to open myself to possibilities others are not willing to see, let alone consider!

 

So, please. Don't think you've got me "figured out" and pigeon-hole me into something I'm not!

Roy I have read enough of your posts to know that you are not a pre-triber, my comment was about the person you were talking to. Lamad is a hard core pre-triber, I have offered the truth to him several times, but he won't listen. I hold a lot of the same beliefs concerning the end times as you do Roy, the only view of the end times that answers all my questions is the post-trib view. If the pre-tribers would admit that the first resurrection happens at the second coming like the Bible says, they would forget the left behind series and prepare for the second coming of the Lord.

 

Ha ha ha! Enoch, you are absolutely comical at times! Yes, I am a hard core pretriber...you said that right! But WHY? It is because GOD is a hard core pretribber! The truth of scripture is pretrib. I had showed time and again that "first" resurrection means CHIEF resurrection, and that Jesus was the firstfruits of that same resurrection, but it is YOU who ignore truth. It is SO SIMPLE: there are two resurrections, one for the just and one for the unjust. Why is this difficult for you to understand? Anyone without preconceptions can undertstand that Jesus rose from the dead as the VERY FIRST to get a resurrection body. (that is what "first" of chief resurrection is all about. We know Jesus and Peter rose people from the dead, but NOT into resurrection bodies! There is NO TIMING GIVEN to the "first resurrection." That is something you assume, incorrectly. All the righteous will be a part of this first or chief resurrection, which started with Jesus.

 

If you would really study the rapture scriptures from Paul, the ONLY writer of the New Testament who received revelation on the rapture, you too would be pretrib. If you try to find the rapture of the church in other places, you and all others will end up confused (which is seems you are.) The rapture is NOT IN Revelation. Especially not in chapter 20. That is totally mans reasoning. The rapture is not found in the gospels; again man's reasoning. Anyone would get confused of they looked for the rapture of the church, during the Old Covenant scriptures! It is not there. Yes, there are gatherings, but NOt the rapture.

 

I have one question for you; are you really following this verse - or just ignoring it because it does not fit your theory?

 

Luk. 21:36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

 

ARe you praying to be counted worthy to escape? Or are you in rebellion to this verse because you cannot believe it?

 

Lamad

 

Lamad  the verse you would do well to try and understand is Blessed and Holy are the ones included in the first resurrection, Rev.20 . 

 

The Bible says Only 2 resurrections of a massive amount of bodies remain in our future, they are both described in Rev. 20, the rapture has to be involved with the one called the first resurrection, not at some fantasy resurrection not mentioned in the Bible. It doesn't matter how much the pre-tribbers try and spin the Bible passages into something that tickles the ear, the fact remains, the first resurrection is when the rapture happens, not anytime pre-trib. And there can be only 1 first, not a dozen firsts and 1 second.   

 

Why is this so hard for you to understand? There is one resurrection for the righteous, and one for the unrighteous. That is as plain as day. What you are missing is that Jesus was the VERY FIRST ONE to be resurrected in the "first resurrection." Those that rose with Him from the Old Covenant were secondfruits, theirfruits, fourthfruits, etc. of the SAME first resurrection. Soon the Dead in Christ will become fruits of that same "first resurrection" just before the 70th week begins.  After that the 144,000 will become a part of it, around the midpoint of the 70th week. Then at the 7th vial, the Old Testament saints rise, and they also will be a part of the "first resurrection." Perhaps at the same time, those beheaded during the week will be resurrected. They too are a part of the "first resurrection." It is the resurrection for the righteous. But it comes in WAVES. Your mistake? Trying to pin down the "first resurrection" to a time. Jesus was the FIRST human in the "first resurrection."

 

There is no "fantasy" time for the rapture, there is PAUL's time. If you miss it, and get left behind, you have only yourself to blame, for Paul wrote it very clearly. A 5th grader could get it, because they would read with no preconceptions. Paul's rapture comes as the TRIGGER for the signs of the Day as is written at the 6th seal. John saw the raptured church in heaven shortely thereafter in Chapter 7. End of story, case closed. God is pretrib. If you are not, you are outside of what God believes.

 

Lamad

 

The fantasy you are claiming isn't the rapture Lamad. The fantasy is that there will be a dozen or so first resurrections when the Bible says there will be only 1 and the Bible plainly says it will be at the second coming of the Lord. If the pre-tribbers would receive the Bible for what it says, not for what they wish it said, there wouldn't be so much confusion coming from the pulpit.

 

Sorry, but the word of God does NOT say there will be only ONE (1) resurrection - happening at one moment in time! That is where you have missed it big time. If you could read Greek, you would know it does not mean there is only single moment for the chief resurrection.

 

Do you believe Jesus rose from the dead with a resurrection body?

 

If there is only ONE resurrection from flesh and blood into a resurrection body, then Jesus had to be a part of it, by process of elimination: you say there was NO OTHER. In your case then, Jesus never rose.

 

Go to Blueletter bible, and look up the Greek word translated as "first." You will see it has DIFFERENT meanings. If you understand ANYTHING about the end times, you know there are different times for different resurrections. For example, the 144000 are seen on earth being sealed, and the next time they are seen around the throne in heaven. They were resurrected. Paul's rapture/resurrection comes as the trigger for the Day of the Lord, which John tells us begins LONG before your "first" resurrection.  Do you understand, you are basing your false theory on ONE WORD? And in doing this, are ignoring many verses that prove your theory wrong.

 

You can be wrong if you want to be. On the other hand, you can study and meditate on Paul's rapture until you understand what he wrote. It is impossible to fit what Paul wrote in 1 Thes. 5 into a posttrib rapture. 

 

YOu still did not answer the question:  ARe you praying to be counted worthy to escape? Or are you in rebellion to this verse because you cannot believe it?  Read it again: Luke 21:36. Since you did not answer, I assume you are in rebellion against this verse, because it simply does not fit your theory.

 

Lamad

 

You say the Bible doesn't say only 1 first resurrection, how can you put into print a lie like that. Lets count together shall we, Rev.20 says blessed and holy are the ones that take part in  The first resurrection. Did you notice the word the , according to you that word should be those.  That's 1 resurrection, it happens at the second coming of the Lord. The reason it happens at the second coming is, that way all the people who have died in the Lord can be resurrected at the same time, with your theory you need a dozen little resurrections scattered out over time from 2000 years ago until whenever the Lord returns. The biggest problem with your theory is, it's not in the Bible, my view is there for everybody to read with their own eyes. 

 

The other resurrection is called the second resurrection, how many of the second resurrections do you say they are?



#145
Montana Marv

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Enoch

 

There are at least two Second Resurrections,  Maybe three.

 

The first being Rev 19:20 - The beast was captured and with him the false prophet who had performed miraculous signs on his behalf,.... the two of them were thrown alive into the fiery Lake of burning Sulfur.

 

The second being Rev 20:11 - 15 -Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it.  The dead, great and small standing before the throne.  They were judged according to what they had done.  They were thrown into the Lake of Fire.

 

The third being all fallen angels go into the Lake of Fire.

 

So I see at least three different entry's in the Lake of Fire.  Or three different waves of the Second Resurrection.  So are there a third and fourth resurrection.

 

Your analogy is incomplete.  The First Resurrection is for the Just.  The Second Resurrection is for the Unjust.

 

The rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1000 years were ended.  Rev 20:5

 

In Christ

Montana Marv



#146
iamlamad

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Shalom, Enoch.

 

Roy, a pre-triber, has a habit of, when reading something in the Bible that don't fit their theology they just ignore it and try to convince everybody that what they just read means something other than what it says.

 

Actually, I'm NOT a "pre-tribber," although I am premillennial. I'm a POST-tribber, about as POST-trib as one can get! I believe that we are CURRENTLY in the tribulation and have been since 30 A.D! The Jews, including those who were followers of the true Messiah, were given a 40-year period to prepare for the worst, but it kicked into high gear in 70 A.D. and has been going on - off and on - since then! I believe that the "tribulation" (Greek: thlipsis = "pressure") is NOT the same thing as the seventieth Seven of Dani'el 9:27. Instead, I believe that the first half of the seventieth Seven was Yeshua`s "ministry" - His offer of the Kingdom to Isra'el - begun roughly in 26 A.D. and ended in 30 A.D. (a three-and-a-half-year period). The second half of the seventieth Seven will also be His offer of the Kingdom to Isra'el, but that won't begin UNTIL AFTER HE ARRIVES, and His arrival comes immediately after the end of the tribulation! I DO believe that the tribulation will crescendo before His arrival, but it is impossible (in my opinion) to pin it down to x number of years!

 

Secondly, I haven't found a thing in the Scriptures that doesn't fit into my "theology" ever since I kicked OUT my theology (which WAS pre-trib, by the way) and began re-buliding it from SCRATCH directly from the Scriptures back in 1977-8 when I was in my early 20's! I've learned quite a bit since then, and I'll admit I don't know it all, yet. There's much yet to learn, but by being able to throw everything out, I've been able to open myself to possibilities others are not willing to see, let alone consider!

 

So, please. Don't think you've got me "figured out" and pigeon-hole me into something I'm not!

Roy I have read enough of your posts to know that you are not a pre-triber, my comment was about the person you were talking to. Lamad is a hard core pre-triber, I have offered the truth to him several times, but he won't listen. I hold a lot of the same beliefs concerning the end times as you do Roy, the only view of the end times that answers all my questions is the post-trib view. If the pre-tribers would admit that the first resurrection happens at the second coming like the Bible says, they would forget the left behind series and prepare for the second coming of the Lord.

 

Ha ha ha! Enoch, you are absolutely comical at times! Yes, I am a hard core pretriber...you said that right! But WHY? It is because GOD is a hard core pretribber! The truth of scripture is pretrib. I had showed time and again that "first" resurrection means CHIEF resurrection, and that Jesus was the firstfruits of that same resurrection, but it is YOU who ignore truth. It is SO SIMPLE: there are two resurrections, one for the just and one for the unjust. Why is this difficult for you to understand? Anyone without preconceptions can undertstand that Jesus rose from the dead as the VERY FIRST to get a resurrection body. (that is what "first" of chief resurrection is all about. We know Jesus and Peter rose people from the dead, but NOT into resurrection bodies! There is NO TIMING GIVEN to the "first resurrection." That is something you assume, incorrectly. All the righteous will be a part of this first or chief resurrection, which started with Jesus.

 

If you would really study the rapture scriptures from Paul, the ONLY writer of the New Testament who received revelation on the rapture, you too would be pretrib. If you try to find the rapture of the church in other places, you and all others will end up confused (which is seems you are.) The rapture is NOT IN Revelation. Especially not in chapter 20. That is totally mans reasoning. The rapture is not found in the gospels; again man's reasoning. Anyone would get confused of they looked for the rapture of the church, during the Old Covenant scriptures! It is not there. Yes, there are gatherings, but NOt the rapture.

 

I have one question for you; are you really following this verse - or just ignoring it because it does not fit your theory?

 

Luk. 21:36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

 

ARe you praying to be counted worthy to escape? Or are you in rebellion to this verse because you cannot believe it?

 

Lamad

 

Lamad  the verse you would do well to try and understand is Blessed and Holy are the ones included in the first resurrection, Rev.20 . 

 

The Bible says Only 2 resurrections of a massive amount of bodies remain in our future, they are both described in Rev. 20, the rapture has to be involved with the one called the first resurrection, not at some fantasy resurrection not mentioned in the Bible. It doesn't matter how much the pre-tribbers try and spin the Bible passages into something that tickles the ear, the fact remains, the first resurrection is when the rapture happens, not anytime pre-trib. And there can be only 1 first, not a dozen firsts and 1 second.   

 

Why is this so hard for you to understand? There is one resurrection for the righteous, and one for the unrighteous. That is as plain as day. What you are missing is that Jesus was the VERY FIRST ONE to be resurrected in the "first resurrection." Those that rose with Him from the Old Covenant were secondfruits, theirfruits, fourthfruits, etc. of the SAME first resurrection. Soon the Dead in Christ will become fruits of that same "first resurrection" just before the 70th week begins.  After that the 144,000 will become a part of it, around the midpoint of the 70th week. Then at the 7th vial, the Old Testament saints rise, and they also will be a part of the "first resurrection." Perhaps at the same time, those beheaded during the week will be resurrected. They too are a part of the "first resurrection." It is the resurrection for the righteous. But it comes in WAVES. Your mistake? Trying to pin down the "first resurrection" to a time. Jesus was the FIRST human in the "first resurrection."

 

There is no "fantasy" time for the rapture, there is PAUL's time. If you miss it, and get left behind, you have only yourself to blame, for Paul wrote it very clearly. A 5th grader could get it, because they would read with no preconceptions. Paul's rapture comes as the TRIGGER for the signs of the Day as is written at the 6th seal. John saw the raptured church in heaven shortely thereafter in Chapter 7. End of story, case closed. God is pretrib. If you are not, you are outside of what God believes.

 

Lamad

 

The fantasy you are claiming isn't the rapture Lamad. The fantasy is that there will be a dozen or so first resurrections when the Bible says there will be only 1 and the Bible plainly says it will be at the second coming of the Lord. If the pre-tribbers would receive the Bible for what it says, not for what they wish it said, there wouldn't be so much confusion coming from the pulpit.

 

Sorry, but the word of God does NOT say there will be only ONE (1) resurrection - happening at one moment in time! That is where you have missed it big time. If you could read Greek, you would know it does not mean there is only single moment for the chief resurrection.

 

Do you believe Jesus rose from the dead with a resurrection body?

 

If there is only ONE resurrection from flesh and blood into a resurrection body, then Jesus had to be a part of it, by process of elimination: you say there was NO OTHER. In your case then, Jesus never rose.

 

Go to Blueletter bible, and look up the Greek word translated as "first." You will see it has DIFFERENT meanings. If you understand ANYTHING about the end times, you know there are different times for different resurrections. For example, the 144000 are seen on earth being sealed, and the next time they are seen around the throne in heaven. They were resurrected. Paul's rapture/resurrection comes as the trigger for the Day of the Lord, which John tells us begins LONG before your "first" resurrection.  Do you understand, you are basing your false theory on ONE WORD? And in doing this, are ignoring many verses that prove your theory wrong.

 

You can be wrong if you want to be. On the other hand, you can study and meditate on Paul's rapture until you understand what he wrote. It is impossible to fit what Paul wrote in 1 Thes. 5 into a posttrib rapture. 

 

YOu still did not answer the question:  ARe you praying to be counted worthy to escape? Or are you in rebellion to this verse because you cannot believe it?  Read it again: Luke 21:36. Since you did not answer, I assume you are in rebellion against this verse, because it simply does not fit your theory.

 

Lamad

 

You say the Bible doesn't say only 1 first resurrection, how can you put into print a lie like that. Lets count together shall we, Rev.20 says blessed and holy are the ones that take part in  The first resurrection. Did you notice the word the , according to you that word should be those.  That's 1 resurrection, it happens at the second coming of the Lord. The reason it happens at the second coming is, that way all the people who have died in the Lord can be resurrected at the same time, with your theory you need a dozen little resurrections scattered out over time from 2000 years ago until whenever the Lord returns. The biggest problem with your theory is, it's not in the Bible, my view is there for everybody to read with their own eyes. 

 

The other resurrection is called the second resurrection, how many of the second resurrections do you say they are?

 

Enoch, I know the KJV and some other translations use the word first. But even we use this word in different ways.

In baseball, "I only made it to first."  But OTHERS made it to first also. All year long people have been making it to first.

 

In a beauty pageant,  "I came in first." Here that means she WON the pageant. But it does not mean a certain TIME, it only means first as in NUMBER 1 or the BEST. It does NOT mean there were not other pageants, or that someone else was not runner up. It only means ONLY she got first place.

 

"The doctor's first duty is to save lives."  Here, first means PRIMARY, or CHIEF of PRINCIPAL.

 

You think first means no other can come before it in TIME. The truth is, the Greek word has other meanings. You ignore all other verses and you don't understand this one. Let's try again:

 

There are only TWO resurrections from the dead to a resurrection body. NOT two in TIME, but two in levels of importance.

 

First (used here as numbering sequence) there is the resurrection of the JUST, or the righteous. Then, there is the resurrection of the sinners or unjust. ALL resurrections will fit in one of these two catagories. In other words, NO resurrection to a resurrection body can be done outside of these two resurrections.

 

THEREFORE, Jesus' resurrection was a part of one of these two resurrections.  You pick: which one?

 

Lamad






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