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When are the dead ressurected?

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#141
enoob57

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The spiritually dead come back to life when they accept Christ as their Savior :)


Correct, but we're speaking of the day when the body is reunited with the spirit.

AllofGrace, Revelation 20 specifically states that the first resurrection applies to those who did not receive the mark of the beast. Since that is something that occurred in Roman times (since it refers to receiving Caesar as God rather than Jesus), it has no meaning to us. The event has occurred for them. They reigned alongside Christ. Since there are no physical human bodies in heaven, I'm led to believe that this was for the martyrs a raising of their spirits to where Christ is: at the right hand of the Father. Other deceased believers, while they most definitely are present with the Lord, did not have the special status of reigning with him during the thousand years (millennium if you prefer).

Technically speaking, resurrection is a status as well as a literal bringing to life of the body. The word anastasis which is the primary word used for resurrection in the New Testament. Those who are resurrected are allowed to stand up in the presence of the King. It is something awarded to them BY the king.


You may relate that to the early NT saints but I do not believe that John is relating it to them. In context with what is before and after John is talking about the 7 years tribulation of the last times and these are the saints that did not take the mark of the beast. When do you believe the 7 years of tribulation will take place? Will the anti-Christ sit on the throne and declare himself to be God. The 144,000 of the 12 tribes of Israel and the two witnesses of God during that time which leads into the 1000 years reign. It says of these saints they loved not their lives even unto death and they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony, these are the ones I see there before the throne and whose bodies will be raised to go into the 1000 years reign on earth. I do not see your connection in context with the book of Revelation's.


Sorry I'm answering these so late:

1. Regarding the alleged 7 years of tribulation, there is no such thing. There are 70 weeks of years (Daniel 9:22-28) or what in Hebrew is called a 'seven'. The last of these sevens was during the life of Christ. Jesus died in the midst of the week, making sacrifice and oblation no longer viable. (His blood is greater than that of bulls and goats.) This left 3.5 years remaining and during those years, the Holy Spirit empowered the Church and began to minister. There are two other 1260 day periods mentioned, but not in Daniel 9.
One of those periods is the "Little Horn" persecution of Daniel 7. An evil man comes along and persecutes (and the text says 'wears out') the saints. We know this man to be Nero. The Neronian persecution lasted 3.5 years and nearly killed off the Church. The other 3.5 years was the First Jewish war, which culminated in the destruction of Jerusalem. Daniel does mention this event in Ch 9, but not in the context of a seven.

So then, the tribulation has occurred, finding its fulfillment in the events leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

2. Ahh, the antichrist. Never has so much been made of so little. I challenge you to look up the word antichrist in Scripture and get back to me. See what you find. You might be surprised.

3. The 144,000 (12K from each tribe of Israel) is not literal. It is reference to all of the faithful Believing Israelites. 144,000 is a perfect number. 12 x 12 x 1000. (There were way more than 144,000 faithful Israelites.)

4. The reference of not loving their lives even unto death refers to refusing to believe that Caesar was Lord. That was the demand of believers, to admit that Caesar was Lord. The response of the faithful was: Jesus is Lord. It applies to the Jewish and Gentile Believers who went through the Neronian persecution. They are the martyrs mentioned in Rev 20. They gained the honor of reigning with Jesus during the 1000 years. The question may come up: Why them and not all of the other Believers who've died for Christ? That you will have to ask God when you see Him. I have no honest answer, but I do have a conjecture: They were the first to die for Jesus, and God is honoring that.

My personal draw on preterism is that of unfounded within Scripture. Just the basic need to twist much of Scripture out of joint
to fit one little phrase "this generation" which was fulfilled in John the disciple taken into end times to pen The Revelation of Jesus Christ...
My goodness history doesn't even work with it... as were seeing now moving to a one world government of ungodly proportions!

Here is some really good work on the subject! http://www.reformedo...rismRapture.htm Love, Steven


A preterist though would believe that AD 70 was the parousia. I don't.

so then what ism are you :) ?

#142
Bold Believer

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The spiritually dead come back to life when they accept Christ as their Savior :)


Correct, but we're speaking of the day when the body is reunited with the spirit.

AllofGrace, Revelation 20 specifically states that the first resurrection applies to those who did not receive the mark of the beast. Since that is something that occurred in Roman times (since it refers to receiving Caesar as God rather than Jesus), it has no meaning to us. The event has occurred for them. They reigned alongside Christ. Since there are no physical human bodies in heaven, I'm led to believe that this was for the martyrs a raising of their spirits to where Christ is: at the right hand of the Father. Other deceased believers, while they most definitely are present with the Lord, did not have the special status of reigning with him during the thousand years (millennium if you prefer).

Technically speaking, resurrection is a status as well as a literal bringing to life of the body. The word anastasis which is the primary word used for resurrection in the New Testament. Those who are resurrected are allowed to stand up in the presence of the King. It is something awarded to them BY the king.


You may relate that to the early NT saints but I do not believe that John is relating it to them. In context with what is before and after John is talking about the 7 years tribulation of the last times and these are the saints that did not take the mark of the beast. When do you believe the 7 years of tribulation will take place? Will the anti-Christ sit on the throne and declare himself to be God. The 144,000 of the 12 tribes of Israel and the two witnesses of God during that time which leads into the 1000 years reign. It says of these saints they loved not their lives even unto death and they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony, these are the ones I see there before the throne and whose bodies will be raised to go into the 1000 years reign on earth. I do not see your connection in context with the book of Revelation's.


Sorry I'm answering these so late:

1. Regarding the alleged 7 years of tribulation, there is no such thing. There are 70 weeks of years (Daniel 9:22-28) or what in Hebrew is called a 'seven'. The last of these sevens was during the life of Christ. Jesus died in the midst of the week, making sacrifice and oblation no longer viable. (His blood is greater than that of bulls and goats.) This left 3.5 years remaining and during those years, the Holy Spirit empowered the Church and began to minister. There are two other 1260 day periods mentioned, but not in Daniel 9.
One of those periods is the "Little Horn" persecution of Daniel 7. An evil man comes along and persecutes (and the text says 'wears out') the saints. We know this man to be Nero. The Neronian persecution lasted 3.5 years and nearly killed off the Church. The other 3.5 years was the First Jewish war, which culminated in the destruction of Jerusalem. Daniel does mention this event in Ch 9, but not in the context of a seven.

So then, the tribulation has occurred, finding its fulfillment in the events leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

2. Ahh, the antichrist. Never has so much been made of so little. I challenge you to look up the word antichrist in Scripture and get back to me. See what you find. You might be surprised.

3. The 144,000 (12K from each tribe of Israel) is not literal. It is reference to all of the faithful Believing Israelites. 144,000 is a perfect number. 12 x 12 x 1000. (There were way more than 144,000 faithful Israelites.)

4. The reference of not loving their lives even unto death refers to refusing to believe that Caesar was Lord. That was the demand of believers, to admit that Caesar was Lord. The response of the faithful was: Jesus is Lord. It applies to the Jewish and Gentile Believers who went through the Neronian persecution. They are the martyrs mentioned in Rev 20. They gained the honor of reigning with Jesus during the 1000 years. The question may come up: Why them and not all of the other Believers who've died for Christ? That you will have to ask God when you see Him. I have no honest answer, but I do have a conjecture: They were the first to die for Jesus, and God is honoring that.

My personal draw on preterism is that of unfounded within Scripture. Just the basic need to twist much of Scripture out of joint
to fit one little phrase "this generation" which was fulfilled in John the disciple taken into end times to pen The Revelation of Jesus Christ...
My goodness history doesn't even work with it... as were seeing now moving to a one world government of ungodly proportions!

Here is some really good work on the subject! http://www.reformedo...rismRapture.htm Love, Steven


A preterist though would believe that AD 70 was the parousia. I don't.

so then what ism are you :) ?


See my edit of the above.

#143
enoob57

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See my edit of the above.

Ok I'll call youism :) Love, Steven

#144
Bold Believer

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See my edit of the above.

Ok I'll call youism :) Love, Steven


Obviously Steven, I'm a partial preterist. I'm also a realized millennialist (Jay C. Adams "The Time is At Hand" can explain that term).

#145
enoob57

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See my edit of the above.

Ok I'll call youism :) Love, Steven


Obviously Steven, I'm a partial preterist. I'm also a realized millennialist (Jay C. Adams "The Time is At Hand" can explain that term).

You might want to consider this from God's Word:
First the Wisdom
Pr 22:28-29
28 Do not remove the ancient landmark
Which your fathers have set.
29 Do you see a man who excels in his work?
He will stand before kings;
He will not stand before unknown men.
NKJV

Then the Prophecy
Jer 18:15
15 "Because My people have forgotten Me,
They have burned incense to worthless idols.
And they have caused themselves to stumble in their ways,
From the ancient paths,
To walk in pathways and not on a highway,
NKJV

I weigh a great deal with the doctrine formed from the
past in examination of the doctrine of the present...
Because God seems to indicate the need to! Love, Steven

#146
Bold Believer

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And place my trust in the teaching of the past to formulate doctrine for the present. Jesus taught a Last Day resurrection. Martha (and by extension, others) believed in a last day resurrection. So, I believe in a last day resurrection.

#147
allofgrace

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AllofGrace, Revelation 20 specifically states that the first resurrection applies to those who did not receive the mark of the beast. Since that is something that occurred in Roman times (since it refers to receiving Caesar as God rather than Jesus), it has no meaning to us. The event has occurred for them. They reigned alongside Christ. Since there are no physical human bodies in heaven, I'm led to believe that this was for the martyrs a raising of their spirits to where Christ is: at the right hand of the Father. Other deceased believers, while they most definitely are present with the Lord, did not have the special status of reigning with him during the thousand years (millennium if you prefer).

Technically speaking, resurrection is a status as well as a literal bringing to life of the body. The word anastasis which is the primary word used for resurrection in the New Testament. Those who are resurrected are allowed to stand up in the presence of the King. It is something awarded to them BY the king.


Yes it does, and those saints that are around the throne in chapter 7 are some that will be killed during the tribulation time and tell me if your theory is correct, why does it say in these verses that there will be those in that group from all nations, tribes, peoples and languages? Rev 7:9-11 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 11 All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God. Notice the number of these saints in v9 which could not have been from the time period that you mention, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations. 7 Many date the book of Revelations at about 94-96 A.D. After the fall of Jerusalem and surely John would have mentioned that if it had already happened. Plus the fact that John speaks of future events to happen like in
Rev 1:3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near. Also at the end of chapter 19 we see in v19-21 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh. What year did all these things happen and starting out the 20th chapter we see the Devil himself bound and thrown into the bottomless pit. Do you really think that there has been a 1000 years that Satan was not allowed to roam seeking whom he may destroy?

1. Regarding the alleged 7 years of tribulation, there is no such thing. There are 70 weeks of years (Daniel 9:22-28) or what in Hebrew is called a 'seven'. The last of these sevens was during the life of Christ. Jesus died in the midst of the week, making sacrifice and oblation no longer viable. (His blood is greater than that of bulls and goats.) This left 3.5 years remaining and during those years, the Holy Spirit empowered the Church and began to minister. There are two other 1260 day periods mentioned, but not in Daniel 9.
One of those periods is the "Little Horn" persecution of Daniel 7. An evil man comes along and persecutes (and the text says 'wears out') the saints. We know this man to be Nero. The Neronian persecution lasted 3.5 years and nearly killed off the Church. The other 3.5 years was the First Jewish war, which culminated in the destruction of Jerusalem. Daniel does mention this event in Ch 9, but not in the context of a seven.

So then, the tribulation has occurred, finding its fulfillment in the events leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.


That is the way you see it and it doesn't go along with what is written in Revelations. We will have to agree to disagree.

2. Ahh, the antichrist. Never has so much been made of so little. I challenge you to look up the word antichrist in Scripture and get back to me. See what you find. You might be surprised.


While it is true that the wording itself is only found in John's writings the meaning is descriptive of the Devil himself and all who deny the true Christ. And Daniels writing also goes along with Revelations as he states the events that will happen at the end, Dan 12:9-13 And he said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 10 Many shall be purified, made white, and refined, but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand.11 “And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days. 13 “But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days. All the saints will be with Christ during the kingdom rule, He did say, He would never leave us nor forsake us. Again, each tub must sit on it's own bottom.

3. The 144,000 (12K from each tribe of Israel) is not literal. It is reference to all of the faithful Believing Israelites. 144,000 is a perfect number. 12 x 12 x 1000. (There were way more than 144,000 faithful Israelites.)


Yea, and that can be found where in scripture that one can read about the perfect number ? I would think these are those witnessing during the tribulation, Rev 7:3-4 saying, “Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed. There are places in scripture that talk about the Israelites coming to the Lord when the times of the Gentile are fulfilled in the latter days. I am no authority on Revelations but this is the way I understand it and I am at peace with it.

#148
enoob57

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And place my trust in the teaching of the past to formulate doctrine for the present. Jesus taught a Last Day resurrection. Martha (and by extension, others) believed in a last day resurrection. So, I believe in a last day resurrection.

There are just and unjust resurrections:
http://www.biblestud...urrections.html
Love, Steven

#149
Bold Believer

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And place my trust in the teaching of the past to formulate doctrine for the present. Jesus taught a Last Day resurrection. Martha (and by extension, others) believed in a last day resurrection. So, I believe in a last day resurrection.

There are just and unjust resurrections:
http://www.biblestud...urrections.html
Love, Steven


Which occur at the same time and on the same day. Some arise to shine like the stars, others to everlasting contempt. The sheep and goats are finally divided on the Last Day.

#150
Bold Believer

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AllofGrace, Revelation 20 specifically states that the first resurrection applies to those who did not receive the mark of the beast. Since that is something that occurred in Roman times (since it refers to receiving Caesar as God rather than Jesus), it has no meaning to us. The event has occurred for them. They reigned alongside Christ. Since there are no physical human bodies in heaven, I'm led to believe that this was for the martyrs a raising of their spirits to where Christ is: at the right hand of the Father. Other deceased believers, while they most definitely are present with the Lord, did not have the special status of reigning with him during the thousand years (millennium if you prefer).

Technically speaking, resurrection is a status as well as a literal bringing to life of the body. The word anastasis which is the primary word used for resurrection in the New Testament. Those who are resurrected are allowed to stand up in the presence of the King. It is something awarded to them BY the king.


Yes it does, and those saints that are around the throne in chapter 7 are some that will be killed during the tribulation time and tell me if your theory is correct, why does it say in these verses that there will be those in that group from all nations, tribes, peoples and languages? Rev 7:9-11 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 11 All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God. Notice the number of these saints in v9 which could not have been from the time period that you mention, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations. 7 Many date the book of Revelations at about 94-96 A.D. After the fall of Jerusalem and surely John would have mentioned that if it had already happened. Plus the fact that John speaks of future events to happen like in
Rev 1:3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near. Also at the end of chapter 19 we see in v19-21 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh. What year did all these things happen and starting out the 20th chapter we see the Devil himself bound and thrown into the bottomless pit. Do you really think that there has been a 1000 years that Satan was not allowed to roam seeking whom he may destroy?

1. Regarding the alleged 7 years of tribulation, there is no such thing. There are 70 weeks of years (Daniel 9:22-28) or what in Hebrew is called a 'seven'. The last of these sevens was during the life of Christ. Jesus died in the midst of the week, making sacrifice and oblation no longer viable. (His blood is greater than that of bulls and goats.) This left 3.5 years remaining and during those years, the Holy Spirit empowered the Church and began to minister. There are two other 1260 day periods mentioned, but not in Daniel 9.
One of those periods is the "Little Horn" persecution of Daniel 7. An evil man comes along and persecutes (and the text says 'wears out') the saints. We know this man to be Nero. The Neronian persecution lasted 3.5 years and nearly killed off the Church. The other 3.5 years was the First Jewish war, which culminated in the destruction of Jerusalem. Daniel does mention this event in Ch 9, but not in the context of a seven.

So then, the tribulation has occurred, finding its fulfillment in the events leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.


That is the way you see it and it doesn't go along with what is written in Revelations. We will have to agree to disagree.

2. Ahh, the antichrist. Never has so much been made of so little. I challenge you to look up the word antichrist in Scripture and get back to me. See what you find. You might be surprised.


While it is true that the wording itself is only found in John's writings the meaning is descriptive of the Devil himself and all who deny the true Christ. And Daniels writing also goes along with Revelations as he states the events that will happen at the end, Dan 12:9-13 And he said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 10 Many shall be purified, made white, and refined, but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand.11 “And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days. 13 “But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days. All the saints will be with Christ during the kingdom rule, He did say, He would never leave us nor forsake us. Again, each tub must sit on it's own bottom.

3. The 144,000 (12K from each tribe of Israel) is not literal. It is reference to all of the faithful Believing Israelites. 144,000 is a perfect number. 12 x 12 x 1000. (There were way more than 144,000 faithful Israelites.)


Yea, and that can be found where in scripture that one can read about the perfect number ? I would think these are those witnessing during the tribulation, Rev 7:3-4 saying, “Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed. There are places in scripture that talk about the Israelites coming to the Lord when the times of the Gentile are fulfilled in the latter days. I am no authority on Revelations but this is the way I understand it and I am at peace with it.


The meaning of the term 'antichrist' is given by John in the text of First John. You can't change that no matter how hard you try.

The concept of the perfect number is a theological one, true, but one held to by many Believers.

#151
allofgrace

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name='Bold Believer' The meaning of the term 'antichrist' is given by John in the text of First John. You can't change that no matter how hard you try. The concept of the perfect number is a theological one, true, but one held to by many Believers.


The idea of changing its meaning did not come from my posting it. Why would I, if scripture does not support an idea, it cannot be verified as coming from God. Let's look at what at how the Holy Spirit describe antichrist by John:

1John2: 18-23 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth. 22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also. This is the spirit of antichrist which indwells all those who oppose Jesus Christ and the Father.

And as v22 declares that the ones that do this are liars and scripture says that the Devil is a liar from the beginning. And just as he possessed Judas he will do during the tribulation in the beast and the false prophet, both of whom have the spirit of antichrist within them as we shall see John describe those who deny Christ in chapter 4 in another paragraph later. But here I want to show the beast and the false prophet doing the work of their father, the one behind all liars, the Devil.

Rev 19:19- Chapter 20:1-3 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.

Chapter 20 1Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.

These two, the beast and the false prophet along with Satan thrown into the bottomless pit during the Kingdom reign of Christ. As I asked before and got no answer, I ask again, where do these events fit into your theory of when the tribulation was 2000 years ago. Was the devil bound, is he free now? And it is clear to see that the spirit of antichrist indwells these two, and that spirit is their father, the devil as Jesus told those who opposed Him, you are of your father, the devil.

John 8:42-44 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.

1John 4:1-6 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.4 You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. 5 They are of the world. Therefore they speak as of the world, and the world hears them. 6 We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.


This adds to the chapter 2 passage as to why believers test the spirits, and that is by the Holy Spirit leading our hearts and minds and knowing and applying the word of God. Those that are attempting to purposely mislead the saints are doing the work of their father, the devil, as John describes the beast and the false prophet. Which brings this question to mind concerning your explanation that the tribulation already has happened. The two prophets of God who will be killed and who had power from God to destroy those who came against them when it was God's purpose and they were killed and then raised back to life, when did these events take place in your tribulation time?

2 John 7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh.

This is a deceiver and an antichrist. So reading from these passages where does it negate what I have said will happen during the 7 years of tribulation when it comes to pass as John has been shown by the Lord, after all it is the Revelations of Jesus Christ.

Unless it is something specific this will end my response on the subject, let each one who reads what I have posted and if it does not bear witness to the truth, they can reject it without my taking no offense.

Edited by GoldenEagle, 03 December 2012 - 01:18 PM.
to help distinguish between posters comments and Scripture...





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