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Do we really go to heaven just as soon as we die?

* * * * * 1 votes Going to Heaven?

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#1
Massorite

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Going to Heaven


The early church did not believe in any way, shape, or form, the idea of going to heaven as soon as we die and if one would do some biblical research one would find that there is not one single scripture that speaks of going straight to heaven on the day we die and if the Bible doesn’t speak of it, then it is not. When we die we either go to the place of burning or we go to paradise and both of these realms exist in Hades.

“We maintain that after life has passed away you still remain in existence and anticipate a Day of Judgment. (In the Judgment), according to your deserts, (deeds) you are assigned to misery or to bliss. Either way, it will be forever. To be capable of this, your former substance must return to you the matter (body) and memory of the very same human being. For if you were not endowed with that sensitive bodily organization, you could fell neither good nor evil. And there would be no grounds for judgment without the presentation of the very person to whom the sufferings of judgment were due. Origen.

Another gifted Christian writer was considered to be one of the greatest Christian theologians of his time and before. His name was Origen and he was born in 185 or 186 A.D. Origen was not quit seventeen when a Christian persecution was begun by the Roman Emperor Septimius Severus. Origen lived during a turbulent time when there were periodic Christian persecutions during the reigns of Emperors Severus, Maximin, and Decius. Also during his time the Roman Empire was threatened with destabilization because of the barbarian invasions that were sweeping across Europe. He was born into great Christian persecution and he died sometime in 254 or 255, while still living under great Christian persecution. In Origin’s time, Christianity had not yet established a system of theological beliefs as a basis of orthodoxy so consequently there were several different sects and each one claiming to posses the truth about the Christian faith. The largest of the different sects were the Gnostics and it is the Gnostic doctrine that Origen fought hardest against. Since there were no non-Gnostic theological systems that were as successful as the Gnostics in his day, Origen formulated one. Because of Origin’s his works and the works of many other wise theologians like him, much of what we believe today is a direct result of their efforts to keep paganism and false doctrinal teachings out of the body of Christ. However after these dedicated men had all passed away and the church became organized, there were several false doctrinal beliefs and many pagan rituals that crept back into the church. Men like Origen were instrumental in the fight against pagan worship and left field concepts like Gnosticism.

Like several other early church theologians Origen also wrote “Ignorant men (uneducated believers) and unbelievers suppose that our flesh is destroyed after death to such a degree that it retains no relic at all of its former substance. However, we who believe in its resurrection understand that only a change has been produced by death…. It will again be raised from the earth. And after this it will advance to the glory of a spiritual body according to the merits of the indwelling soul. We are to believe, then, that all this bodily substance will be brought into this condition. This will be when all things will be re-established into a state of unity and when God will be “all in all” And this result must be understood as being brought about, not suddenly but slowly [in process of time] and gradually.” It also seems that Origen contradicts himself. “The apostolic teaching is that there is to be a time of resurrection from the dead, when the body which now is sown in corruption will rise in incorruption; and when that which “is sown in dishonor will rise in glory.” We know now that the flesh will not rise from the grave just as it went into the grave and even if it did, changing into the glorified body on the way up to heaven accomplishes the same task. Anyway believing that the flesh will rise from the grave just before it changes into the glorified body is not eternally significant.

This belief shows that the believers of the early church not only did not believe in the ascension to heaven at the moment of death but also believed we went into the earth and stayed there until we will be called by Jesus to come forth from the grave. Again the early church got it right because there is not one single word in the bible that tells us that we will go to heaven immediately after the moment of death.

“We therefore believe that the body also rose. For even if it decays, it is not in the least bit destroyed. That is because the earth that receives its remains, will preserve them. They become like seed and are wrapped up in the richer part of the earth. Thereafter, they spring up and bloom. However, the body is not raised the same thing as it is now. Rather, it becomes pure and no longer corruptible. And to everybody, its own proper soul will be given again. But the unrighteous will receive their bodies unchanged. They will not be freed from suffering and disease. They will be unglorified, with all the ills in which they died. Hippolytus.

Today we know that when we die our body turns back into the dust from which God made it from and our spirit or breath of life which animates the body goes back to God where it came from. But what of the soul? What happens to the soul when our body is no longer function able and the spirit of life leaves the body? First of all the bible doesn’t speak one single word about what happens to the soul when we die and yet salvation is all about the soul. The soul is what will rise from the dead and stand before the throne of God as a multitude that no man can count and the living will change from the flesh to the glorified body and will also stand among the multitude.

Hippolytus was correct when he stated that the unrighteous will still suffer all of the pain and disease which the body suffers while still in the flesh but after one has been judged to be unworthy for the glorified body it will be the soul that suffers these things because the body dies daily and will not last forever but the soul can and will suffer for eternity. The Parable of the rich man and Lazarus is proof of that concept.


Besides, if everybody goes to heaven as soon as they die and all of the graves are empty, Who will Jesus raise from the grave if the graves are empty?

#2
AlexanderJ

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First of all the bible doesn’t speak one single word about what happens to the soul when we die and yet salvation is all about the soul.



Salvation is not "all about the soul". Our bodies, souls, and spirits all need to be saved and sanctified because they have all been tainted by sin.

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Thessalonians 5:23


The spirit can be saved:

....that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
1 Corinthians 5:5


The body must be saved:

...Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
Ephesians 5:23
(See also, Romans 8:23, Philippians 3:21)

The soul must be saved:

But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
Hebrews 10:39


Salvation is triune, just as God is triune. To say that one facet of salvation is more important than another would be like saying that a certain member of the Godhead is more important than another.

An interesting thing to note is that our present body, is as Paul puts it, "soulish", and that our ressurected self will be "spiritual" implying that while our present body is dominated by our soul, our ressurected body will be dominated by our spirit.

1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural (Gr. psuchetikon, or "soulish") body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural (again, Gr. psuchetikon, or "soulish"); and afterward that which is spiritual.

#3
FresnoJoe

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Besides, if everybody goes to heaven as soon as they die and all of the graves are empty, Who will Jesus raise from the grave if the graves are empty?


Amen~!

#4
Tim7

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2Cr 5:6 KJV - Therefore [we are] always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
2Cr 5:7 KJV - (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
2Cr 5:8 KJV - We are confident, [I say], and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

To say we dont go to heaven when we die is to say Jesus died for noting, but Jesus died to give us access to heaven when we pass from this body. Paradise was only a temporary holding area for all those who followed after God from the beginning of time up till Jesus fulfilled His obedience on the cross. When He died He spent three days and three nights in the belly of the earth to bring them out and lead them to heaven...that fulfilled the prophetic word about hell enlarging itself. Another verse in the new testament speaks how He shall come back with those dead in Christ...meaning that they are asleep in the body but they are very much alive in the Spirit in the presence of Jesus in heaven. The exciting part comes when all the spirits of the dead in Christ shall be reunited with their bodies at the sounding of that great trumpet.

Mat 12:40 KJV - For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.


Eph 4:9 KJV - (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10 KJV - He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)


Isa 5:14 KJV - Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.

1Th 4:13-18 KJV - But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Blessings, Tim

Edited by Tim7, 28 November 2012 - 02:04 PM.


#5
shiloh357

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Besides, if everybody goes to heaven as soon as they die and all of the graves are empty, Who will Jesus raise from the grave if the graves are empty?


He is raising their bodies from the grave, not their spirits. So their graves are not empty as their bodies remain in the ground. Where did you get the idea that the graves are empty if everyone goes to heaven when they die?

You are operating from the fallacy that earlier doctrines mean more accurate. There is a erroneous notion among some that the closer you get to the ancient apostles and to the early church, the closer you get to the original "correct" theology or doctrinal views that is simply not true. Heresies abounded in the early church and this is recorded among the early church historians. You really cannot turn to the early church fathers for correct doctrine, as they held to many heresies and persecuted the Jews as well.

Jesus, in dealing with the Saducees on the issue of the after life quotes from Exodus 3 where God told Moses "I am the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob." He did not say, "I WAS the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, meaning that God is the God of the living. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were still alive according to Jesus, proving that their spirits were not in the grave but were alive and animate. Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus and talked with Jesus on the Mount of Tranfiguration, meaning that they were still alive and their spirits were not in their graves.

#6
allofgrace

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Why did Paul make these statements in this passage? What does he mean when in v23 he says he has a desire to depart and be with Christ? Is Christ in the grave or in heaven? Phil 1:21-23 For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. 23 For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better.

What does Paul mean by this passage when he concludes that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord? Again, is Christ in the grave or in heaven. In both of these passages I've shown that Paul desires to go be with Christ, so the point is, where is Jesus now? 2 Cor 5:6-8 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

Not to mention, Jesus has promised that He will never leave us nor forsake us, if the believer does not directly to heaven, do you suppose that Jesus is with them in the grave? Now I ask you, show some passages that says the believer does not go to be with the Lord when they die.

And to say that the early NT believers did not believe that the saved went directly to be with the Lord is proven incorrect because the scripture teaches contrary to that idea. The verses I have shown tells us the Holy Spirit had Paul to tell all believers that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. That is early enough for me. And in 1 Thess 4:13-18 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. The principle is always the same, the saints will be with the Lord.

#7
OldShep

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For me I have Faith that once this body has passed, I will be with the Lord!.

I choose to believe the word of God found in the Bible.

The OP. is..from the book:
The Jerusalem Church: Learn Not the Way of the Heathen

By Robert Cook

#8
Massorite

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2Cr 5:6 KJV - Therefore [we are] always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
2Cr 5:7 KJV - (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
2Cr 5:8 KJV - We are confident, [I say], and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

To say we dont go to heaven when we die is to say Jesus died for noting, but Jesus died to give us access to heaven when we pass from this body. Paradise was only a temporary holding area for all those who followed after God from the beginning of time up till Jesus fulfilled His obedience on the cross. When He died He spent three days and three nights in the belly of the earth to bring them out and lead them to heaven...that fulfilled the prophetic word about hell enlarging itself. Another verse in the new testament speaks how He shall come back with those dead in Christ...meaning that they are asleep in the body but they are very much alive in the Spirit in the presence of Jesus in heaven. The exciting part comes when all the spirits of the dead in Christ shall be reunited with their bodies at the sounding of that great trumpet.

Mat 12:40 KJV - For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.


Eph 4:9 KJV - (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10 KJV - He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)


Isa 5:14 KJV - Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.

1Th 4:13-18 KJV - But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Blessings, Tim




First of all I see that no one has been able to show any scripture that tells us that we will go to heaven as soon as we doie.
"We are confident, [I say], and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord". The words "Willing Rather" mean just what they say. Which is to say that we would be "willing rather" to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord and has nothing to do wth telling us that "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" as so many miss quote and take out of context just as You have done.

"But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him." This verse actually says that "those who sleep in Jesus" is present tence as in "those who sleep in Jesus as of the time of the writing of this scripture" which was some 64 years after the death of Christ. Which means that those who sleep in Christ whom Paul was speaking of had not gone o heaven but were still sleeping in Christ doing just as Christ had done which was to first decend. So to say that we go to heaven as soon as we die is at oods with this verse because we would no longer be sleeping in Jesus but would enjoying the pleasures of heaven.
You should re-read what I said. I said that we don't go to heaven as soon as we die. I never said that we will never go to heaven. Please don't put into my mouth what I didn't say.
" Paradise was only a temporary holding area for all those who followed after God from the beginning of time up till Jesus fulfilled His obedience on the cross." Please show me some scripture that says Paradise was closed down or emptied". Because there are none.

When He died He spent three days and three nights in the belly of the earth to bring them out andWhen He died He spent three days and three nights in the belly of the earth to bring them out and"When He died He spent three days and three nights in the belly of the earth to bring them out and lead them to heaven." Show me some scripture that says " Jesus lead all who were in Paradise back to heaven with him when he acended into heaven. Because Acts ch. 1 say that only Jesus acended into heaven when he went and there is no scripture that I could find that says any different.

#9
Massorite

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First of all the bible doesn’t speak one single word about what happens to the soul when we die and yet salvation is all about the soul.



Salvation is not "all about the soul". Our bodies, souls, and spirits all need to be saved and sanctified because they have all been tainted by sin.

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Thessalonians 5:23


The spirit can be saved:

....that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
1 Corinthians 5:5


The body must be saved:

...Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
Ephesians 5:23
(See also, Romans 8:23, Philippians 3:21)

The soul must be saved:

But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.Hebrews 10:39

Salvation is triune, just as God is triune. To say that one facet of salvation is more important than another would be like saying that a certain member of the Godhead is more important than another.

An interesting thing to note is that our present body, is as Paul puts it, "soulish", and that our ressurected self will be "spiritual" implying that while our present body is dominated by our soul, our ressurected body will be dominated by our spirit.

1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural (Gr. psuchetikon, or "soulish") body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural (again, Gr. psuchetikon, or "soulish"); and afterward that which is spiritual.

While we are alive and walking on this earth we have a soul and a spirit and a body. But according to scripture when we die the spirit "breath of life" goes vback to God where it came from and our bodies turn back to the dust from which it came from. So the only part of us that lives on forever is our Soul which is everything that we are.

"An interesting thing to note is that our present body, is as Paul puts it, "soulish", and that our ressurected self will be "spiritual" implying that while our present body is dominated by our soul, our ressurected body will be dominated by our spirit." I never run down the road of "the bible implies this or the scripture leads us to believe this or the bible appears to say this or that"
because that kind of quoting in my humble opionion is a very inacurate way to interpret the word of God and can lead to some very bad false doctrinal teaching. Besides having a spiritual body is also what the glorfied body is. But we will still be able to feel pleasure or pain depending on where go when we are judged.
"But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.Hebrews 10:39". Just as the scripture says "Salvation is all about the soul."

#10
Massorite

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For me I have Faith that once this body has passed, I will be with the Lord!.

I choose to believe the word of God found in the Bible.

The OP. is..from the book:
The Jerusalem Church: Learn Not the Way of the Heathen

By Robert Cook

And there is no reason to believe that when we die we won't be in the presents of the Lord. I am simply saying that we will not be going straight to heaven the moment we die but will go to heaven when Jesus come to raise us from the grave. Read the Parable of Lazorus and the rich man.

#11
OldShep

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For me I have Faith that once this body has passed, I will be with the Lord!.

I choose to believe the word of God found in the Bible.

The OP. is..from the book:
The Jerusalem Church: Learn Not the Way of the Heathen

By Robert Cook

And there is no reason to believe that when we die we won't be in the presents of the Lord. I am simply saying that we will not be going straight to heaven the moment we die but will go to heaven when Jesus come to raise us from the grave. Read the Parable of Lazorus and the rich man.


Why say? .

I am simply saying that we will not be going straight to heaven the moment we die


I choose to believe that Time means nothing to the person who has passed on. Time is for living man, and like everything else, man can Fight over it...

I have read the Parables of Lazarus and the rich man...and have read about a man who went to the 3rd Heaven...and I have read that to be in this body is to be away from the Lord. I have also read that every day we spend in this body it is wasting away! I have read such words as "I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, " .......Yes, I have read and I have Faith, that as it turns out was a gift, because I did nothing to receive that gift through my actions.

Will the Faith of what I believe cause one to lose their Salvation in Christ, if it takes 100 thousand years to take place, or if it happens in the moment of being set free from the early tent we live in.

Yes, why say anything beyond your belief in the Lord Jesus Christ, belief that we will be with Him...

Dennis

#12
Bible_Gazer

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I think Stephen went to heaven and has a new body.

Acts 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

2Cor.5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

#13
Massorite

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Besides, if everybody goes to heaven as soon as they die and all of the graves are empty, Who will Jesus raise from the grave if the graves are empty?


He is raising their bodies from the grave, not their spirits. So their graves are not empty as their bodies remain in the ground. Where did you get the idea that the graves are empty if everyone goes to heaven when they die?

You are operating from the fallacy that earlier doctrines mean more accurate. There is a erroneous notion among some that the closer you get to the ancient apostles and to the early church, the closer you get to the original "correct" theology or doctrinal views that is simply not true. Heresies abounded in the early church and this is recorded among the early church historians. You really cannot turn to the early church fathers for correct doctrine, as they held to many heresies and persecuted the Jews as well.

Jesus, in dealing with the Saducees on the issue of the after life quotes from Exodus 3 where God told Moses "I am the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob." He did not say, "I WAS the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, meaning that God is the God of the living. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were still alive according to Jesus, proving that their spirits were not in the grave but were alive and animate. Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus and talked with Jesus on the Mount of Tranfiguration, meaning that they were still alive and their spirits were not in their graves.

Show me some scripture to back that idea up. Show me some scripture that says that the body goes to heaven and the spirit stays in the grave. Because scripture tells us that the body turns back to the dust where it came from and the spirit goes back to God where it came from. Which is the opposite of what you are saying.

#14
Massorite

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Why did Paul make these statements in this passage? What does he mean when in v23 he says he has a desire to depart and be with Christ? Is Christ in the grave or in heaven? Phil 1:21-23 For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. 23 For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better.

What does Paul mean by this passage when he concludes that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord? Again, is Christ in the grave or in heaven. In both of these passages I've shown that Paul desires to go be with Christ, so the point is, where is Jesus now? 2 Cor 5:6-8 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

Not to mention, Jesus has promised that He will never leave us nor forsake us, if the believer does not directly to heaven, do you suppose that Jesus is with them in the grave? Now I ask you, show some passages that says the believer does not go to be with the Lord when they die.

And to say that the early NT believers did not believe that the saved went directly to be with the Lord is proven incorrect because the scripture teaches contrary to that idea. The verses I have shown tells us the Holy Spirit had Paul to tell all believers that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. That is early enough for me. And in 1 Thess 4:13-18 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. The principle is always the same, the saints will be with the Lord.

All through the New Testament the words "Endure to the end" is spoken and when we have endured to the end and died or Christ comes we will have accomplished that which is our goal. In the Parable of Lazarus and the rich man there is conversation that takes place but none of it is spoken by Lazorus only the rich man and Abraham. Why? Lazarus had died didn't he? And if he was dead and in heaven then why wasn't he awake and taking part in the conversation? Because he was sleeping in Christ in death.
In John 11:11 Jesus says that Lazarus was sleeping. But in John 11:14 Jesus says that Lazarus is dead. Why? Because Lazarus was dead in Christ and when we die in Christ we are simply in a state of sleep until Jesus raises us from the grave which is what Jesus did with Lazarus and we all know that Lazarus was raised with his body intack and needing nourishment because Jesus commands that Lazarus be given food. But when we are raised from the grave we will be raised in the glorified body just as Jesus was which will get us into heaven because no flesh shall inter into heaven.

"What does Paul mean by this passage when he concludes that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord?" You have made a mistake in this question by leaveing out the rest of the verse. You only quoted half of the verse so I will show the whole verse. 2 Cor. 5:8 "We are confident, well pleased RATHER TO BE absent from the body and to be present with the Lord".

In this verse there is no conclusion here at all. It is a statement of fact which is saying that we as believers are confident and well pleased that we would rather be absent from our bodies and to be present with the Lord. When we quote that verse and leave out the words "rather to be" it changes the verse into a false doctrine which is to say that when we die we will be in heaven in the presents of the Lord and this verse says nothing at all about going to heaven at the moment of death. We would all rather be in the presence of the Lord verses being in the flesh. But to say that this verse is telling us that we go to heaven as soon as we die is simply wrong.

There is no scrptural proof that Paradise was emptied out and there is no scripture proof that we go to heaven as soon as we die. I believe that when we die it will be just like when we lay down to go to sleep ever night. I will die and go to sleep in the presence of the Lord and the next time I open my eyes it will be as if no time has past and an angel/reaper will be helping me out of the grave just as the word of God say I will be helped by a reaper/angel out of the grave.

Personally I am aways in the presence of the Lord because I can feel His presence all around me at all times.

#15
Massorite

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For me I have Faith that once this body has passed, I will be with the Lord!.

I choose to believe the word of God found in the Bible.

The OP. is..from the book:
The Jerusalem Church: Learn Not the Way of the Heathen

By Robert Cook

And there is no reason to believe that when we die we won't be in the presents of the Lord. I am simply saying that we will not be going straight to heaven the moment we die but will go to heaven when Jesus come to raise us from the grave. Read the Parable of Lazorus and the rich man.


Why say? .

I am simply saying that we will not be going straight to heaven the moment we die


I choose to believe that Time means nothing to the person who has passed on. Time is for living man, and like everything else, man can Fight over it...

I have read the Parables of Lazarus and the rich man...and have read about a man who went to the 3rd Heaven...and I have read that to be in this body is to be away from the Lord. I have also read that every day we spend in this body it is wasting away! I have read such words as "I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, " .......Yes, I have read and I have Faith, that as it turns out was a gift, because I did nothing to receive that gift through my actions.

Will the Faith of what I believe cause one to lose their Salvation in Christ, if it takes 100 thousand years to take place, or if it happens in the moment of being set free from the early tent we live in.

Yes, why say anything beyond your belief in the Lord Jesus Christ, belief that we will be with Him...

Dennis

No insult intended here but maybe you should check your faith because I am in the Lord and the Lord is in me. My flesh keeps me from being profected in Jesus but I am never away from the Lord



For me I have Faith that once this body has passed, I will be with the Lord!.

I choose to believe the word of God found in the Bible.

The OP. is..from the book:
The Jerusalem Church: Learn Not the Way of the Heathen

By Robert Cook

And there is no reason to believe that when we die we won't be in the presents of the Lord. I am simply saying that we will not be going straight to heaven the moment we die but will go to heaven when Jesus come to raise us from the grave. Read the Parable of Lazorus and the rich man.


Why say? .

I am simply saying that we will not be going straight to heaven the moment we die


I choose to believe that Time means nothing to the person who has passed on. Time is for living man, and like everything else, man can Fight over it...

I have read the Parables of Lazarus and the rich man...and have read about a man who went to the 3rd Heaven...and I have read that to be in this body is to be away from the Lord. I have also read that every day we spend in this body it is wasting away! I have read such words as "I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, " .......Yes, I have read and I have Faith, that as it turns out was a gift, because I did nothing to receive that gift through my actions.

Will the Faith of what I believe cause one to lose their Salvation in Christ, if it takes 100 thousand years to take place, or if it happens in the moment of being set free from the early tent we live in.

Yes, why say anything beyond your belief in the Lord Jesus Christ, belief that we will be with Him...

Dennis

Personnally I am in Jesus and He is in me and I am never away from the Lord. My flesh keeps me from being perfected in the Lord but that will happen when I am raised from the grave or at the moment of death.

#16
gdemoss

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There is scriptural support that 'While it is called To day' believers who die are with Christ in Paradise. The thief on the cross is the church who is told To day you will be with me in Paradise. While it is called To day harden not your hearts as in the provocation but receive the Spirit of God by faith and put on Christ and when you die, you will be dead in Christ, and when you live you will be alive in Christ. To live is Christ and to die is gain for the man who walks as he walked.

Paul had been to Paradise and had seen things that were not lawful to speak about and so he did not. There is a sufficient amount of misleading that goes with the term 'caught up' that is used because of the word 'up' that directs ones carnal intellect to understand Paradise to be spoken of as that of heaven above but there is nothing truly indicating that a 'heaven' must be above. Even David, who was a prophet, spoke of making his bed in Hell and God being their as well.

I do not claim to dogmatically know the truth of the matter at hand, but do declare that I see perfect reasoning to believe what Dave has presented here to be a very real possibility that we should all take heed unto but comfort one another with the saying that if we obey righteousness we shall reap everlasting life through Jesus Christ our Lord even though there may be some times where we fail in our flesh. God be thanked! And much love to my brothers and sisters in Christ who love our Lord in sincerity. Wherever we go when we die In Christ, I shall be with you there lest the Lord return and I simply meet you in the air.

#17
OldShep

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"No insult intended here but maybe you should check your faith because I am in the Lord and the Lord is in me."

No insult intended, but........indicates the opposite of the written or spoken word, "check your faith" ......

...I have, it is a gift from God, that Faith tells me that as soon as this body passes on, my living spirit will be with the Lord, I will be with the Lord, the body remains behind, for God, is not the God of the Dead but of the Living, I do not die I merely pass on to be with the Lord Jesus. Praise the Lord Jesus is coming back.. :hurrah: ...

Here is a statement to think about; Born Twice die once, born once Die Twice.

Dennis

#18
Tim7

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"No insult intended here but maybe you should check your faith because I am in the Lord and the Lord is in me."

No insult intended, but........indicates the opposite of the written or spoken word, "check your faith" ......

...I have, it is a gift from God, that Faith tells me that as soon as this body passes on, my living spirit will be with the Lord, I will be with the Lord, the body remains behind, for God, is not the God of the Dead but of the Living, I do not die I merely pass on to be with the Lord Jesus. Praise the Lord Jesus is coming back.. :hurrah: ...

Here is a statement to think about; Born Twice die once, born once Die Twice.

Dennis


I agree with this wholeheartedly Thanks OldShep, I've really been praying over how to respond back to this thread after presenting biblical evidence, I just washed my hands of it after praying over why someone believes we dont go to heaven after dying. Thats like saying Jesus bled and suffered for noting and our faith is lost. Praise God I know that Jesus is on the right hand of God making intercession for me till I come home to meet Him in person. I am looking forward to that beautiful day and glorious day we enter into heaven and inherit the rest of our eternal rewards. Blessings Tim

#19
Massorite

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I think Stephen went to heaven and has a new body.

Acts 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

2Cor.5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

Show me some scripture that say "Steven went to heaven" We must remember that Jesus is our example and all that happened to him will happen to us which means that we will first decend into the lower reaches of the earth before we are raised from the grave. What did Jesus say to the thief on the cross? He said "this day you shall be with me in paradise" now we all know that Jesus first decended and since the thief went with Christ that very death which is the day of His death, the thief went with Christ into Paradise.
Desiring "to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: IS A LONG WAYS FROM BEING CLOTHED WITH OUR HEAVENLY CLOTHING.

#20
Massorite

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Besides, if everybody goes to heaven as soon as they die and all of the graves are empty, Who will Jesus raise from the grave if the graves are empty?


He is raising their bodies from the grave, not their spirits. So their graves are not empty as their bodies remain in the ground. Where did you get the idea that the graves are empty if everyone goes to heaven when they die?



Jesus, in dealing with the Saducees on the issue of the after life quotes from Exodus 3 where God told Moses "I am the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob." He did not say, "I WAS the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, meaning that God is the God of the living. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were still alive according to Jesus, proving that their spirits were not in the grave but were alive and animate. Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus and talked with Jesus on the Mount of Tranfiguration, meaning that they were still alive and their spirits were not in their graves.

Show me some scripture to back that idea up. Show me some scripture that says that the body goes to heaven and the spirit stays in the grave. Because scripture tells us that the body turns back to the dust where it came from and the spirit goes back to God where it came from. Which is the opposite of what you are saying.

Body stays in grave as stated
spirit goes to heaven and they are reunited with a immortal incorruptible body at the harpazo

1 Thessalonians 4


13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Corinthians 15

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.


The body never gets reunited with the soul because no flesh shall inter into heaven. We will be like Jesus was with a glorified body that could eat fish and walk through walls. His body had enough substance to touch but it wasn't flesh.




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