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What is an Idol?

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#41
Sevenseas

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A graven image would be, from what I have come to understand, a misrepresentation of God created to represent Him..God does not want
any sort of physical object to represent Him is what I understand when I take a serious look at the scriptures that deal with this subject


ok...when I wrote this, I was not thinking of or meaning art, statues or even a creche. I don't see those things as sinful...
now statuary in Catholic churches might fit into the 'thou shalt not' if they are prayed to or considered in some way a
meaningful representation



Regardless of what you were thinking or not thinking, you hit the nail on the head with that statement.........because it's true.



One other observation........why are the standards for catholics and noncatholics different when the behavior is the same? It's ok for one but not the other.


I am aware man, but even so, I think I get something different out of those words than you do

Regarding C vs NC, are the standards different? I don't think the standards are different

I grew up in the Montreal area and Quebec is chock full of Catholic churches and yet I was raised Protestant and was saved when I was 5,
and we went to a lovely little church...called it the chapel actually...no statues no virgins no crosses...go into a Catholic church and
they are replete with statuary in all directions and candles burning under them (lit candle representing prayers)

So, there is no difference in the command...obviously, but I think it would be very unlikely to think that the statues with candles are not idols

AS Paul stated regarding eating meat offered to idols...eating it was not a sin, eating in front of a weak brother in Christ was a sin,
(in the eyes of the weak brother) it was not the meat or even the idol, but the spirit behind the idol and the spirit in which the meat was offered

Where did you get that off topic smiley? It's really cute! Posted Image

#42
nebula

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In the Midieval period, Biblical stories were depicted in stained glass to assist the uneducated in knowing them. Would you consider these idols, Man, even though the purpose of human images was for story-telling not reverence?

#43
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In the Midieval period, Biblical stories were depicted in stained glass to assist the uneducated in knowing them. Would you consider these idols, Man, even though the purpose of human images was for story-telling not reverence?



My personal belief's are irrelevant. What does the bible say concerning those images? If it says not too, then we shouldn't.......regardless of how we feel. However, if there is something in the Word that countermands those verses that say "do not", I am willing to listen.

#44
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A graven image would be, from what I have come to understand, a misrepresentation of God created to represent Him..God does not want
any sort of physical object to represent Him is what I understand when I take a serious look at the scriptures that deal with this subject


ok...when I wrote this, I was not thinking of or meaning art, statues or even a creche. I don't see those things as sinful...
now statuary in Catholic churches might fit into the 'thou shalt not' if they are prayed to or considered in some way a
meaningful representation

I don't think an artists' rendition is necessarily an idol...but then I am not even into religious art but I had some very heavy
doses of art theory and history in college, so I am pretty aware of what is out there

Most religious art will depict Jesus...as far as actually representing God goes, the only thing that comes immediately to mind
is the Sistine chapel and Michelangelo's God reaching out to touch Adam

Speaking of nude, most of the figures in that work were originality depicted in the altogether....there was the pope who
went around fig leafing and painting over all the au naturel elements in statuary and paintings in a around the Vatican...
forget his name

forget his name


That would have been Pope Prude the First.........

#45
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Let's discuss art for a moment. A picture of Jesus, an artists rendition of what He may have looked like, is idolatry, and a grave sin?


Let's discuss this through the Word.

If God commands us to do something and we go against His Word, is that sin?




We are to Live by the Spirit and not the Letter of the Law.

Lu 14:5
And answered them, saying, Which of you shall have a donkey or an ox fallen into a pit, and will not immediately pull him out on the sabbath day?

Is that a sin?



Posted Image




:D


Nice artful dodge.

#46
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That would have been Pope Prude the First.........


:biggrin2:

#47
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Let's discuss art for a moment. A picture of Jesus, an artists rendition of what He may have looked like, is idolatry, and a grave sin?


Let's discuss this through the Word.

If God commands us to do something and we go against His Word, is that sin?




We are to Live by the Spirit and not the Letter of the Law.

Lu 14:5
And answered them, saying, Which of you shall have a donkey or an ox fallen into a pit, and will not immediately pull him out on the sabbath day?

Is that a sin?



Posted Image




:D


Nice artful dodge.


Your question is off topic and has nothing to do with the OP. Let's try to stay focused here. :sherlock:

Perhaps you could start your own thread. :noidea:

Just a thought. :)

#48
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Let's discuss art for a moment. A picture of Jesus, an artists rendition of what He may have looked like, is idolatry, and a grave sin?


Let's discuss this through the Word.

If God commands us to do something and we go against His Word, is that sin?




We are to Live by the Spirit and not the Letter of the Law.

Lu 14:5
And answered them, saying, Which of you shall have a donkey or an ox fallen into a pit, and will not immediately pull him out on the sabbath day?

Is that a sin?



Posted Image




:D


Nice artful dodge.


Your question is off topic and has nothing to do with the OP. Let's try to stay focused here. :sherlock:

Perhaps you could start your own thread. :noidea:

Just a thought. :)

Not really off thread. I can see the donkey Mattitjah is about to pull out of the pit. Can't you? :cool2:

#49
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Not really off thread. I can see the donkey Mattitjah is about to pull out of the pit. Can't you? :cool2:



I know exactly what he's getting at, but it has no bearing on this issue.

#50
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Not really off thread. I can see the donkey Mattitjah is about to pull out of the pit. Can't you? :cool2:



I know exactly what he's getting at, but it has no bearing on this issue.


Sure it does, but you don't want to acknowledge it because it shatters your argument about representations and Idols rather than worship which is really what the topic is about. The object of an Idol is your worship and you can't worship a picture of Jesus because it can't encompass the totality of who He really is.That is why God prohibits it. However, that does not mean that the Sistene Chapel is a sin and a grevious error against God and His Word. Neither do I bow down to the classic European representation of Jesus that hangs in my living room.


When God states that "He is God and that Thou shalt have no other Gods before Him." He doesn't mean little wooden man fashioned worthless tokens that pagans worship. He wasn't even s[peaking to pagans when He wrote the Law with His finger. He means that you shouldn't worship what they represent and that if you Loved Him with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength that you'd likely not have that despicable thing in your home or temple to begin with.

You see, the Royal Law sums up the whole of the Law.


I do hope that you are following the exact Letter of all of the Law, if not, you're headed for trouble because you appear to advocate a strict and legalistic interpretation of it.

#51
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Not really off thread. I can see the donkey Mattitjah is about to pull out of the pit. Can't you? :cool2:



I know exactly what he's getting at, but it has no bearing on this issue.


Sure it does, but you don't want to acknowledge it because it shatters your argument about representations and Idols rather than worship which is really what the topic is about.



Then let's pull that donkey out of the pit and have a look.



The object of an Idol is your worship and you can't worship a picture of Jesus because it can't encompass the totality of who He really is.That is why God prohibits it. However, that does not mean that the Sistene Chapel is a sin and a grevious error against God and His Word. Neither do I bow down to the classic European representation of Jesus that hangs in my living room.




Prohibits what?



When God states that "He is God and that Thou shalt have no other Gods before Him." He doesn't mean little wooden man fashioned worthless tokens that pagans worship. He wasn't even s[peaking to pagans when He wrote the Law with His finger. He means that you shouldn't worship what they represent and that if you Loved Him with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength that you'd likely not have that despicable thing in your home or temple to begin with.




What does your "classic European representation of Jesus" represent?


Just curious.



You see, the Royal Law sums up the whole of the Law.


I do hope that you are following the exact Letter of all of the Law, if not, you're headed for trouble because you appear to advocate a strict and legalistic interpretation of it.


Romans 13
8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law.
9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not
bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely,
“You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.


#52
Parker1

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I've never seen an image of GOD. I've never even read a physical description of GOD. I've seen religious art depicting what some person imagines Christ would look like. But that is not an idol unless you hold that art in high esteem or anything other than just religious art. I suspect that is the real, hidden subject of this thread. We have seen this thread before.


Personally, Fez's motives for starting this thread are unknown to me. However, if the "art" you are referring too happens to come up, why not discuss it? I don't see the harm. It's only "art".

My motive is to prove that an idol can be anything we idolize. Hey, Imelda Marcos had thousands of shoes from all over the world while her people lived in slums. Idolizing anything is dangerous. Putting anything before God can be idolatry, because He should be first and foremost and reign over everything in our lives.

Let's discuss art for a moment. A picture of Jesus, an artists rendition of what He may have looked like, is idolatry, and a grave sin? But a painting of a nude in a compromising position is "less" sinful?

If you put either before God, they are idols.

I didn't say that, Fez. I was just attempting to say that having a depiction of Christ hanging on your wall does not make it an idol unless you hold it in some esteem other than a piece of art. Like you said, if you put either (anything) before GOD, they are idols (to you.) Sometimes I guess I'm not very clear. I'm glad that this is not about pictures of Christ. My mistake in assuming so.

#53
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Exodus 20:1-15


And God spoke all these words:

2 “I am the Lord your God,who brought you out of Egypt,out of the land of slavery.

3 “You shall have no other gods before me.

4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worshipthem; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God,punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousandgenerations of those who love me and keep my commandments.





This is what i observed i notice in my wife"s country the catholic"s have a lot of statues of Jesus in their homes for a nation that proclaims its a christian nation which worships the lord and fears the lord i began to go over the verse i had left and what i was taught on what is an Idol

Their are stores that sell either paintings off Jesus or statues of Jesus every single home has either a statue or painting of Jesus our family home does not my mother in law knows its wrong to have these symbols in the family home

Also what i had observed is the fiestas and the festivals we have a fiesta just after my wife"s birthday and each year it gets bigger with people from other Provinaces attending

one festival i went to was this one which is held in Cebu


Sto. Niño prominent in many PHL festivals


The Holy Child Jesus is believed around the world to be a miracle worker, and devotees can be found in many places, including Spain, Mexico and Peru. In the Czech Republic, there is the Infant of Prague, a statue believed to have been brought as a wedding gift to a Spanish woman who married a Czech nobleman. In Mexico, the Holy Child has many titles, the most famous being El Santo Niño de Atocha. In Rome, there is the Santo Bambino di Ara Coeli

In the Philippines, the year begins with a month-long tribute to the Holy Child Jesus. All over the country, devotees to the Sto. Niño carry images in processions, offer flowers and dress the statue. The celebration peaks around the third Sunday of the month, which marks the Feast of the Sto. Niño in the Philippines

what i saw blew me away huge crowds and its at a crawling pace people every where street closed down

i also witnessed this festival


Dinagyang Festival
lloilo City
January 20-22

This festival held in honor of the Sto. Niño sets itself apart with excellent folk choreography and a grand display of Ilonggo heritage and culture. According to the Iloilo Dinagyang Foundation, Inc. website, the , Tahoma] include a fluvial procession along Iloilo river, where devotees bearing images of the Sto. Niño ride on motorized bancas. Another attraction is the theatrical Kasadyahan, a cultural parade held before the next day's Ati-atihan contest. Originally a parish church festivity celebrating the feast of the Sto. Nino, the religious event has evolved to become a tourist destination as well.




this is another festival i was asked to go to

Every January 9 at Quipo Church in Manila, The Black Nazarene, a life-sized statue of Christ is carried through town by barefooted men yelling, "Viva Señor, while huge crowd tries to touch the statu. The statue was bought by a priest in Mexico and brought it to Manila in 1606. Since 1787 the statue has been housed at Saint John the Baptist Church in Quiapo. For more than 200 years the church has been placing the statue on a gilded carriage every January and pulling it through the streets of Quiapo. People who touch it are reported to sometimes be healed of diseases. Catholics come from all over Manila on the chance that they will be able to get close enough to touch the image and perhaps receive a miracle. They also throw towels to the police who guard the statue and ask them to rub the towel on the statue in hopes of carrying some of that power away with them...

http://www.philippin...renereplica.jpg

http://www.philippin...cknazarenes.gif

http://www.philippin...cknazarene2.jpg

the people love these festivals and fiestas i still am learning about the other festivals a lot of idol worship from what i see they even worship the saints

#54
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Not really off thread. I can see the donkey Mattitjah is about to pull out of the pit. Can't you? :cool2:



I know exactly what he's getting at, but it has no bearing on this issue.


Sure it does, but you don't want to acknowledge it because it shatters your argument about representations and Idols rather than worship which is really what the topic is about.



Then let's pull that donkey out of the pit and have a look.



The object of an Idol is your worship and you can't worship a picture of Jesus because it can't encompass the totality of who He really is.That is why God prohibits it. However, that does not mean that the Sistene Chapel is a sin and a grevious error against God and His Word. Neither do I bow down to the classic European representation of Jesus that hangs in my living room.




Prohibits what?



When God states that "He is God and that Thou shalt have no other Gods before Him." He doesn't mean little wooden man fashioned worthless tokens that pagans worship. He wasn't even s[peaking to pagans when He wrote the Law with His finger. He means that you shouldn't worship what they represent and that if you Loved Him with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength that you'd likely not have that despicable thing in your home or temple to begin with.




What does your "classic European representation of Jesus" represent?


Just curious.



You see, the Royal Law sums up the whole of the Law.


I do hope that you are following the exact Letter of all of the Law, if not, you're headed for trouble because you appear to advocate a strict and legalistic interpretation of it.


Romans 13
8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law.
9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not
bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely,
“You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.


Prohibits the Worship of other Gods before Him. :thumbsup: Which, consequently, is why Idolatry is abhorrent.

Let's first acknowledge that He's talking to believers when He institutes the prohibition shall we?

Let's also see what else is like this and likewise abhorrent;

1Sa 15:23
For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because you have rejected the word of the LORD, he has also rejected you from being king.

So, Rebellion is like idolatry, why do you suppose that would be? Care to expound on that a little?

P.S. You are restating what I've already said with the quotes of scripture about Love. You will Love no one if you do not first Love God because you are incapable of it. Paul knew this as he took it from Christ, the OT Prophets, and the Law.

Really it all gets back to worship now doesn't it?

#55
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Prohibits the Worship of other Gods before Him. :thumbsup: Which, consequently, is why Idolatry is abhorrent.

Let's first acknowledge that He's talking to believers when He institutes the prohibition shall we?

Let's also see what else is like this and likewise abhorrent;

1Sa 15:23
For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because you have rejected the word of the LORD, he has also rejected you from being king.

So, Rebellion is like idolatry, why do you suppose that would be? Care to expound on that a little?

P.S. You are restating what I've already said with the quotes of scripture about Love. You will Love no one if you do not first Love God because you are incapable of it. Paul knew this as he took it from Christ, the OT Prophets, and the Law.

Really it all gets back to worship now doesn't it?



Yes, I agree.


Now forgive me for asking, is any of what you stated have anything to do with that donkey you were going to pull out of the pit?




Sure it does, but you don't want to acknowledge it because it shatters your argument about representations and Idols rather than worship which is really what the topic is about. The object of an Idol is your worship and you can't worship a picture of Jesus because it can't encompass the totality of who He really is.That is why God prohibits it. However, that does not mean that the Sistene Chapel is a sin and a grevious error against God and His Word. Neither do I bow down to the classic European representation of Jesus that hangs in my living room.


When God states that "He is God and that Thou shalt have no other Gods before Him." He doesn't mean little wooden man fashioned worthless tokens that pagans worship. He wasn't even s[peaking to pagans when He wrote the Law with His finger.He means that you shouldn't worship what they representand that if you Loved Him with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength that you'd likely not have that despicable thing in your home or temple to begin with.

You see, the Royal Law sums up the whole of the Law.


I do hope that you are following the exact Letter of all of the Law, if not, you're headed for trouble because you appear to advocate a strict and legalistic interpretation of it.


The representation of Jesus that hangs in your living room, what does it represent?

I'm asking an honest question.

#56
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Where did you get that off topic smiley? It's really cute! Posted Image


I pick'em up here and there and throw'em in a folder.

#57
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Prohibits the Worship of other Gods before Him. :thumbsup: Which, consequently, is why Idolatry is abhorrent.

Let's first acknowledge that He's talking to believers when He institutes the prohibition shall we?

Let's also see what else is like this and likewise abhorrent;

1Sa 15:23
For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because you have rejected the word of the LORD, he has also rejected you from being king.

So, Rebellion is like idolatry, why do you suppose that would be? Care to expound on that a little?

P.S. You are restating what I've already said with the quotes of scripture about Love. You will Love no one if you do not first Love God because you are incapable of it. Paul knew this as he took it from Christ, the OT Prophets, and the Law.

Really it all gets back to worship now doesn't it?



Yes, I agree.


Now forgive me for asking, is any of what you stated have anything to do with that donkey you were going to pull out of the pit?




Sure it does, but you don't want to acknowledge it because it shatters your argument about representations and Idols rather than worship which is really what the topic is about. The object of an Idol is your worship and you can't worship a picture of Jesus because it can't encompass the totality of who He really is.That is why God prohibits it. However, that does not mean that the Sistene Chapel is a sin and a grevious error against God and His Word. Neither do I bow down to the classic European representation of Jesus that hangs in my living room.


When God states that "He is God and that Thou shalt have no other Gods before Him." He doesn't mean little wooden man fashioned worthless tokens that pagans worship. He wasn't even s[peaking to pagans when He wrote the Law with His finger.He means that you shouldn't worship what they representand that if you Loved Him with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength that you'd likely not have that despicable thing in your home or temple to begin with.

You see, the Royal Law sums up the whole of the Law.


I do hope that you are following the exact Letter of all of the Law, if not, you're headed for trouble because you appear to advocate a strict and legalistic interpretation of it.


The representation of Jesus that hangs in your living room, what does it represent?

I'm asking an honest question.


It has to do with the donkey in the pit regarding a strict interpretation of the Law.

The picture in the living room is someones interpretation of what Christ possibly looked like, which I highly doubt, and is a reminder for the family that He rules the home.

Now be honest and answer whether or not someone can worship just about anything including another person.

#58
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I've never seen an image of GOD. I've never even read a physical description of GOD. I've seen religious art depicting what some person imagines Christ would look like. But that is not an idol unless you hold that art in high esteem or anything other than just religious art. I suspect that is the real, hidden subject of this thread. We have seen this thread before.


Personally, Fez's motives for starting this thread are unknown to me. However, if the "art" you are referring too happens to come up, why not discuss it? I don't see the harm. It's only "art".

My motive is to prove that an idol can be anything we idolize. Hey, Imelda Marcos had thousands of shoes from all over the world while her people lived in slums. Idolizing anything is dangerous. Putting anything before God can be idolatry, because He should be first and foremost and reign over everything in our lives.

Let's discuss art for a moment. A picture of Jesus, an artists rendition of what He may have looked like, is idolatry, and a grave sin? But a painting of a nude in a compromising position is "less" sinful?

If you put either before God, they are idols.

I didn't say that, Fez. I was just attempting to say that having a depiction of Christ hanging on your wall does not make it an idol unless you hold it in some esteem other than a piece of art. Like you said, if you put either (anything) before GOD, they are idols (to you.) Sometimes I guess I'm not very clear. I'm glad that this is not about pictures of Christ. My mistake in assuming so.

I understand what you were getting at Parker, thanks! I agree with what you are saying but I could see this thread was hovering around the subject and your post was the catalyst that got it into the open so we could have a healthy discussion about it.

And as an aside, as damo said in his post, this is idol worship......

This is 1,000,000 Catholic Filipino's worshiping the statue of the black Nazarene in Manila, which happens annually. This is putting an idol before God!

Posted Image

Here the donkey stays firmly stuck in the pit.......

#59
enoob57

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An idol is an interesting dichotomy of Spirit and corporeal... as the begin in our education by God of the
infinite-we have the tendency to cling to that which pleases us and not advance any more in the purpose
of knowing Our Lord more! When this is done we are holding to the created thing more than to the Creator...
An example would be buying a car- if by having it I have to work more and it involves working during Church time!
The Lord says we are not to forsake the assembling of ourselves together BUT I really love this car and its
worth it to me cause the old one was ugly... oh it ran ok but WOW this one is awesome... God wants me to
have nice things! Thus that which ends in rot we put before God is a dumb order of priority kind of like this
Eze 14:2-5
2 And the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 3 "Son of man, these men have set up their idols in their hearts,

and put before them that which causes them to stumble into iniquity. Should I let Myself be inquired of at all by them?
4 "Therefore speak to them, and say to them, 'Thus says the Lord God: "Everyone of the house of Israel who sets
up his idols in his heart, and puts before him what causes him to stumble into iniquity, and then comes to the prophet,
I the Lord will answer him who comes, according to the multitude of his idols, 5 that I may seize the house of Israel by
their heart, because they are all estranged from Me by their idols."'
NKJV

Love, Steven

#60
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This is 1,000,000 Catholic Filipino's worshiping the statue of the black Nazarene in Manila, which happens annually. This is putting an idol before God!

Posted Image

Here the donkey stays firmly stuck in the pit.......



Does the donkey become less dirty once it's pulled out of the pit?




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