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666 - the problem with over-enthusiasm

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#1
OakWood

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I'm putting this in the prophecy forum because I think it is the right place for it, although I'm not really going to discuss prophecy, only the tendency for people to go overboard when it comes to the analysis of Rev 13:18.

 

Firstly, let me start by reminding people that God does not grant salvation because of one's ability to solve puzzles. 666 is not meant to be a test of one's mental dexterity, otherwise you'd end up with lots of souls who become condemned due to their inability to decipher some sort of hidden code, and lots of undeserving people being granted salvation just because they were smart enough to play around with names and numerology, solve the conundrum and avoid taking the mark.

 

The concept of 666 is so engrained into Western Christian civilisation that it has become part of folklore. Even non-believers have heard of it. It has become a common theme of horror movies, dramas and novels. Even the rock band Iron Maiden released a hit track and album based around it. For many years now people have tried to solve the puzzle, often by playing around with people's names and substituting numbers for the letters in their names, and other such mumbo-jumbo. Depending what language you use and what method you use, almost anybody's name can come out as 666. This has led to many speculations as to who the forthcoming anti-Christ may be, whether it be Barack Obama, George W. Bush, Elvis Presley or the Queen of England.

 

I blame this phenomena on the wording of Rev: 13-18 itself:

 

This calls for wisdom, if anybody has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is a man's number, the number is 666.

 

or the King James Version:

 

Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

 

Now as a boy, I could never understand how anybody would fall for this. 666 is so famous that anybody who sees it would run a mile, so naturally I believed what many other people believe, that it would be a trick, a hidden number that wouldn't be obvious and that would require gematria or some other form of code-breaking to solve it. Hence the fashion today for people to try and solve this problem. They are trying to work it out ahead of time and don't want to fall for it. This of course, is nonsense and is an insult to God. Paradise will end up full of problem-solvers, mathematicians, amateur detectives and various other boffins regardless of their faith in Jesus. Anybody who is a loyal Christian, but rather stupid will be thrown into the fire.

 

It is quite feasible for people to be gullible enough to take the mark even if it is as plain as day. Even if the Beast appears and uses 666 as his own personal emblem, has it tattooed on his forehead and calls his political party the '666 party' it won't make any difference, those who's names are not written into the book of life will still be deceived by him, even if they are familiar with the 666 legend.

Why?

Because people can also be fooled by the blatantly obvious, that's why.

 

Already we have false church leaders telling people that 666 is nothing to worry about, that the Bible has been misinterpreted and that 666 is actually a good number, but has been mistakenly interpreted to be the number of evil. Google 'Jose Luis deJesus Miranda' if you don't believe me.

We also have people who think that Christianity is fake, a religion of the old superstitious days, but now with New-Age thinking we are about to enter a new era of spirituality. It wouldn't surprise me if some people didn't even deliberately use 666 as a logo to show that they are above superstition, and that they refuse to fall for Christian nonsense!

 

Of course, I'm not saying that this will be the case, all I am trying to say is that when the mystery of 666 is finally revealed, it will be a lot more obvious than a lot of these amateur detectives think and the wise will identify it, because they have an understanding of God. Those who are ungodly, lustful, greedy and sadistic, even if it is obvious to them too, they won't understand the consequences of it, or they will laugh at it.

 

Solving the riddle of 666 is not that important.

No Christian should be fooled by a false Messiah that sets up camp in Jerusalem, preaches blasphemous things, performs flashy miracles and then forces everybody to take some sort of mark. 666 is just a number, given to us for our benefit as a means of us being certain that a prophecy is being fulfilled. It will not be necessary to spot it. It will be just another clue amongst many.

It's fun to try and work it out ahead of time, but when people start messing around with names. letters and numbers it just gets stupid, even turning to paranoia at times.

I don't believe that we're ready to solve it yet. Closer to the time we will gain a better understanding of it.

It will become one of those "aaah, yes, so that's what it is" moments.



#2
other one

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Revelation tells us that the exception to those who worship the beast and take his name are those whose name is written in the book of life......   Jesus also told us that no one could snatch us out of the hand of the Father....

 

no one will be fooled or tricked into taking the mark or worshiping the beast or it's image.   It is my personal belief that the Holy Spirit will not let that happen to anyone who's name is in that book unless they make a conscious decision to do so.

 

 

I certainly do agree that we make too much out of the mark.....       dwelling on it can mess with your head and keep you from enjoying what time we have left until it arrives...        Don't worry.......   Be happy.....



#3
Cletus

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in verse rev 13:17 it says:  And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

 

the hebrew alphabet is also the numeric system so in english it would go A is one, B is two and so on.  perhaps its his initials.  who knows?  But once you see you cant buy sell or sell without the mark you will know for sure.  I mean how can you know a number of his name without knowing his name.  when it happens you will not be able to miss it. 

 

I think it is important to teach about the mark of the beast though because in rev. 14 it says this:

 

And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

 

I think its understandable to want to know because it is a mystery.  People tend to be attracted to mysteries.  but in all reality we are to be looking for the return of Jesus, not the enemy.



#4
other one

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in verse rev 13:17 it says:  And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

 

the hebrew alphabet is also the numeric system so in english it would go A is one, B is two and so on.  perhaps its his initials.  who knows?  But once you see you cant buy sell or sell without the mark you will know for sure.  I mean how can you know a number of his name without knowing his name.  when it happens you will not be able to miss it. 

 

I think it is important to teach about the mark of the beast though because in rev. 14 it says this:

 

And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

 

I think its understandable to want to know because it is a mystery.  People tend to be attracted to mysteries.  but in all reality we are to be looking for the return of Jesus, not the enemy.

that same part of Revelation tells us that if we don't worship the first beast we will be killed......   so the mark really isn't a big deal....    No Christian is going to worship the beasts so I really don't see the urgency of knowing what the 666 is.



#5
Cletus

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in verse rev 13:17 it says:  And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

 

the hebrew alphabet is also the numeric system so in english it would go A is one, B is two and so on.  perhaps its his initials.  who knows?  But once you see you cant buy sell or sell without the mark you will know for sure.  I mean how can you know a number of his name without knowing his name.  when it happens you will not be able to miss it. 

 

I think it is important to teach about the mark of the beast though because in rev. 14 it says this:

 

And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

 

I think its understandable to want to know because it is a mystery.  People tend to be attracted to mysteries.  but in all reality we are to be looking for the return of Jesus, not the enemy.

that same part of Revelation tells us that if we don't worship the first beast we will be killed......   so the mark really isn't a big deal....    No Christian is going to worship the beasts so I really don't see the urgency of knowing what the 666 is.

 

If it wasnt a big deal God would not have seen fit to put it in the bible?(all scripture is God breathed).  God is very specific with His words.  If God tells us something in His word we should not shrug it off due to our opinions. No offence intended....but His words are the words of life and not only in a spiritual sense but in a shepherd protecting his sheep from the wolves way also.



#6
OakWood

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in verse rev 13:17 it says:  And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

 

the hebrew alphabet is also the numeric system so in english it would go A is one, B is two and so on.  perhaps its his initials.  who knows?  But once you see you cant buy sell or sell without the mark you will know for sure.  I mean how can you know a number of his name without knowing his name.  when it happens you will not be able to miss it. 

 

I think it is important to teach about the mark of the beast though because in rev. 14 it says this:

 

And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

 

I think its understandable to want to know because it is a mystery.  People tend to be attracted to mysteries.  but in all reality we are to be looking for the return of Jesus, not the enemy.

that same part of Revelation tells us that if we don't worship the first beast we will be killed......   so the mark really isn't a big deal....    No Christian is going to worship the beasts so I really don't see the urgency of knowing what the 666 is.

 

If it wasnt a big deal God would not have seen fit to put it in the bible?(all scripture is God breathed).  God is very specific with His words.  If God tells us something in His word we should not shrug it off due to our opinions. No offence intended....but His words are the words of life and not only in a spiritual sense but in a shepherd protecting his sheep from the wolves way also.

 

 

I agree, and there may be an importance to it. It may be very significant. What I am trying to say though is that it is not a puzzle to be deciphered. Your salvation is not dependent upon cracking some code that others may not be able to. It's a sign like many other Biblical signs. It may be a warning to stay away. It could even be an early warning sign, so that Christians can prepare, but I doubt if it is a complex riddle. God is not the author of confusion.



#7
Hindsfeet

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IMHO, I think the real issue of deception is with the act of Worship. What is worship? Do people today understand what Worship really means? Is it only bowing down, kneeling to pray, lifting hands, or singing songs in a church/cathedral/mosque/religious establishment?

We've already seen a young child 'praying' to obama. Do the masses actually see this as 'worship'? It is open Idolatry, yet, I can see people poo pooing, excusing and minimizing it. False grace.

I see believers and nonbelievers alike more excited and devoted to sports teams, a pop star, tv shows, politicians,,,, Tech Gadgets,,,a Cause,,, etc.

What is worship and how and what are we being deceived into worshipping?



#8
kingdomwitness

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The bible did not say "Here is wisdom, let him that is knowledgeable avoid counting the number of the beast" but it says those who have knowledge should count the number. I believe that this is restricted to only those with the knowledge in aspects as this and their duty is to warn those who would listen to them. So counting the number, I believe is restricted to those with the knowledge.

#9
OakWood

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The bible did not say "Here is wisdom, let him that is knowledgeable avoid counting the number of the beast" but it says those who have knowledge should count the number. I believe that this is restricted to only those with the knowledge in aspects as this and their duty is to warn those who would listen to them. So counting the number, I believe is restricted to those with the knowledge.

 

You may be right, but I don't believe that messing about with people's names and letters and so on will provide any answers. I think we'll have to wait and see closer to the time.



#10
kingdomwitness

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Not only people's names. Even kingdoms add up to 666. I once checked a bible software in school and I saw a commentary by Adam Clarke or so concerning the number of the beast in which he said the name "The Latin Kingdom" in Greek adds up to 666 and he worked it out but I don't have much knowledge of Greek language, I would have worked it out to prove it. The Latin Kingdom could be the Roman Empire since Latin is its main language. Not only people's names but also empires and kingdoms.

#11
Cletus

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in verse rev 13:17 it says:  And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

 

the hebrew alphabet is also the numeric system so in english it would go A is one, B is two and so on.  perhaps its his initials.  who knows?  But once you see you cant buy sell or sell without the mark you will know for sure.  I mean how can you know a number of his name without knowing his name.  when it happens you will not be able to miss it. 

 

I think it is important to teach about the mark of the beast though because in rev. 14 it says this:

 

And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

 

I think its understandable to want to know because it is a mystery.  People tend to be attracted to mysteries.  but in all reality we are to be looking for the return of Jesus, not the enemy.

that same part of Revelation tells us that if we don't worship the first beast we will be killed......   so the mark really isn't a big deal....    No Christian is going to worship the beasts so I really don't see the urgency of knowing what the 666 is.

 

If it wasnt a big deal God would not have seen fit to put it in the bible?(all scripture is God breathed).  God is very specific with His words.  If God tells us something in His word we should not shrug it off due to our opinions. No offence intended....but His words are the words of life and not only in a spiritual sense but in a shepherd protecting his sheep from the wolves way also.

 

 

I agree, and there may be an importance to it. It may be very significant. What I am trying to say though is that it is not a puzzle to be deciphered. Your salvation is not dependent upon cracking some code that others may not be able to. It's a sign like many other Biblical signs. It may be a warning to stay away. It could even be an early warning sign, so that Christians can prepare, but I doubt if it is a complex riddle. God is not the author of confusion.

 

I believe it to be a warning due to the bible saying if you take the mark you will be burned with fire in the presence of The Lamb.  I do agree that knowing or knowledge of who the beast is based upon the mark is not important for salvation but rather knowing or having knowledge of The Living God is.  I also believe it is written in way that we wont be able to figure it out until the time comes for the beast to set up his short lived kingdom on earth.  The bible also speaks of God putting His mark/seal in His peoples foreheads while on earth to protect them from some of the things coming upon the earth.  Everything the enemy does is counterfeit to God/how God operates.



#12
Donibm

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Take what ALL the verses say ... not just one.

 

who is the drunk woman on a beast  (false Church AND State) ... which is the iron AND clay seen in Daniel?

 

who is made drunk with the blood of saints (roman coliseum, inquisitions, Jesuit oath of induction, etc)?

 

the woman/beast rest on 7 mountains.  How does this fit in with the above two things (ancient roman coins will help you ... or even Wikipedia)

 

666:

you know what i is?  1. 

you know what ii is?  2. 

you know what v is? 5.

you know what x is? 10.

 

But did you know that the Latin numeric system is ALSO the alphabet?

 

VICARIUS FILII DEI

 

... add that up in the Latin numerical system.  When you discover that it is 666, well, realize that it is the Popes Mantle.

 

 

Now ask yourself, why do ALL of the hints point to the Vatican?

 

You will have to decide if it's all just a weird coincidence ... or I'm a mentally retarded brilliant kinda guy.

 

Either way, you will have to analyze it for yourself.  I already have ... 10 times over.



#13
OakWood

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Take what ALL the verses say ... not just one.

 

who is the drunk woman on a beast  (false Church AND State) ... which is the iron AND clay seen in Daniel?

 

who is made drunk with the blood of saints (roman coliseum, inquisitions, Jesuit oath of induction, etc)?

 

the woman/beast rest on 7 mountains.  How does this fit in with the above two things (ancient roman coins will help you ... or even Wikipedia)

 

666:

you know what i is?  1. 

you know what ii is?  2. 

you know what v is? 5.

you know what x is? 10.

 

But did you know that the Latin numeric system is ALSO the alphabet?

 

VICARIUS FILII DEI

 

... add that up in the Latin numerical system.  When you discover that it is 666, well, realize that it is the Popes Mantle.

 

 

Now ask yourself, why do ALL of the hints point to the Vatican?

 

You will have to decide if it's all just a weird coincidence ... or I'm a mentally retarded brilliant kinda guy.

 

Either way, you will have to analyze it for yourself.  I already have ... 10 times over.

 

Yes, but the New Testament was written in Greek, not Latin.



#14
Donibm

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Indeed it was.

 

But this "clue" - all of them - are pointing to a very specific source ... the Vatican.

 

 

People say all sorts of crazy things about 666.  Remember when fundamental SDA said that "Sunday worship" was the mark of the beast?  I'm sorry, but, YOU buy and sell too ... right?  So, how can "sunday worship" be the mark of the beast if NO MAN can buy and sell without the mark?  I even remember some people said that the former Russian leader was the antichrist because of a birthmark on his head.  He's ... DEAD ... now, right?  Some even said that Naz (rapper) was the antichrist and something about 666.

 

So, this isn't me being over zealous about a number.  This is CRITICAL THINKING.  Careful study.  Careful consideration.  And what I see is that ALL of the clues are pointing to the same exact place - the Vatican.

 

What are the chances of that happening?

 

All clues pointing to ground zero?

 

This is rightfully dividing the Word of God, not having a piece point over there, and another over there, and another over here.  They ALL point inwards to that little red dot over in Rome.

 

 

 

The Popes mantle adds up to 666 in the Latin numeric system.



#15
FresnoJoe

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This is rightfully dividing the Word of God, not having a piece point over there, and another over there, and another over here....

 

:thumbsup:

 

As I See It One Will Either Point To the man

 

I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. John 5:43

 

Or One Will Point To THE Man

 

And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. Acts 7:56

 

Beloved, It's That

 

And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, Jude 1:14

 

Simple

 

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. John 6:37



#16
Cobalt1959

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Indeed it was.

 

But this "clue" - all of them - are pointing to a very specific source ... the Vatican.

 

 

People say all sorts of crazy things about 666.  Remember when fundamental SDA said that "Sunday worship" was the mark of the beast?  I'm sorry, but, YOU buy and sell too ... right?  So, how can "sunday worship" be the mark of the beast if NO MAN can buy and sell without the mark?  I even remember some people said that the former Russian leader was the antichrist because of a birthmark on his head.  He's ... DEAD ... now, right?  Some even said that Naz (rapper) was the antichrist and something about 666.

 

So, this isn't me being over zealous about a number.  This is CRITICAL THINKING.  Careful study.  Careful consideration.  And what I see is that ALL of the clues are pointing to the same exact place - the Vatican.

 

What are the chances of that happening?

 

All clues pointing to ground zero?

 

This is rightfully dividing the Word of God, not having a piece point over there, and another over there, and another over here.  They ALL point inwards to that little red dot over in Rome.

 

 

 

The Popes mantle adds up to 666 in the Latin numeric system.

 

You seem to have missed the gist of what Oak is saying.  He isn't saying that any of us should ignore God's words to us when it comes to this issue.  He is saying it isn't really wise, or constructive to spend huge amounts of time and thought to trying to decipher something that is not decipherable, because at this point in time, we do not have enough information within the world around us to solve it.  When the time arises when it needs to be deciphered, the Christians alive during that time will be able to figure it out.  But that time is not right now, so the pressing need to figure out exactly what "666" means does not exist.

 

You arrive at the conclusion that it points to the Vatican.  And you would arrive at that conclusion because that is a conclusion you would at least partially be wishing to arrive at from the beginning.  A person who believes it has something to do with Islam could come to the conclusion that it points to that.  A person who thought it applied to New Age Theology, Wicca, or China could make it mean that.  Because with that particular number, no one has enough data, or a base point to begin from to figure it out with 100% confidence.  It is always just a best guess, no matter what conclusion one comes to.  Because it isn't time to solve it yet.

 

Anyone with discernment and is a true believer in Christ will not take the mark, and they will not be deceived by someone saying they are Christ and need to take this mark to prove their devotion.  Jesus Himself tells us that false Christs and false prophets will appear and even perform miracles that would fool the elect, but what He says at the end is the most important:  "If that were possible."  It is not possible to fool the elect.



#17
kingdomwitness

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All clues seem to point to the Vatican but have you considered the European Union and the European Parliament?

#18
Donibm

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@ Cobalt,

 

 

I wasn't actually responding "to" Oakwood.  I was delivering my own thoughts, but I wasn't responding to him.

 

 

2)

Christians of what time?  Where are "Christians" in the Book of Revelation once the Tribulation has begun?  All emphases is on Israel, not the Church.  Further, it is incorrect for you to suggest that only that generation would know.  Revelation itself says "HERE IS WISDOM.  LET HIM THAT HATH UNDERSTANDING..."

 

That says nothing about only that generation would understand.  It is saying that whomever is given the wisdom to know, will know.  That is why no one reading this can accuse me of taking just this one verse and running with it.  Instead, I've taken all clues and shown how they ALL point to the same thing.  RIGHTFULLY DIVIDE THE WORD

 

 

3)

You also have erred suggesting that its a conclusion that I want. The first time I studied Revelation, it was 1991 ... and I was "brand new" in that year.  I've read Revelation at least 6 times since, and studied it in equal portions.  You CANNOT just make it point to whomever you want.  You mentioned Islam.  Go ahead and try to make the clues point to Islam.  Try to make them point to America.  Try to make them point to the UN or anything else you want.  If you think that is possible, I'd like to see how that is accomplished.  But no, I've not fabricated or inserted a delusion or a lie.  History itself is on my side ... as is what we clearly can see today.

 

 

4)

Lastly, I am seeing something that is apparently common in these threads.  I see Scriptures applied out of context.  You cannot take a Scripture that is talking about FALSE MESSIAHS (plural, such as your Jim Jones, David Koresh, H.I.M., Sun Yong Moons ... and this other wacko who thinks he is Jesus and married to Mary) and apply that to THEE Antichrist of the Tribulation.  You are taking what is attributed to something completely different and applying it to a wrong context.  If it were at all possible concerns false religions, false doctrines, false christs ... not THEE Antichrist.

 

The antichrist will convince the world of a lie.

 

 

And I'm curious.  Since you think Christians will be around, and since it appears that you think that it's as simple as just "not taking the mark" ... let me ask you a few questions.

 

 

 

a)

Have you ever fasted before?  A real fast?  Have you never experienced what HUNGER PAINS feel like - those sharp, needle like feelings in the stomach?  But ... you think you will refuse to take the Mark and just let yourself  starve to death?

 

b)

Since you cannot buy or sell, are you ready to go withouth toothpaste, deodorant, loose all your possessions (cause you can't keep your apt or home if you don't make PAYMENTS)?  Are you dependant on medications to starve off illnesses ... so you'll just let your body suffer?

 

c)

Are you married?  Kids?  So, you'll just be willing to not only starve yourself and endure the slow, gruesome pain of death, but watch your spouse and child die also?

 

d)

For get about buying new clothes, or calling Joe Blow (you aren't PAYING you phone bill, remember?)  And don't forget the food crises where even a loaf of bread is costing a days wage.  With things THAT expensive, who do you think is going to give you any handouts?

 

e)

And since it is the WORST TIME MANKIND HAS EVEN EXPERIENCED, and since the Spirit is gone - the one who restrains evil - mankind will do whatever they want.  Rape a woman in broad daylight.  Kill dudes for no reasons.  Demons all over the world.  Nature out of wack and being destroyed.  But, you think that you'll just ... what?  Ride it out?

 

f)

And what about the torture?  Do you think they will ASK you to take the mark?  They will torture and kill you.  Do you think your body can endure without you giving in? They have torture methods now that can keep you alive, just to make sport of your torture.  Maybe you should read about the methods of the Inquisitions?  Read the Jesuit Oath of Induction.  Oh, and Islam certainly will be left behind.  See what they do to "infidels" while you are at it.

 

 

... are you sure you know the gravity and reality of what you think you know?  I'm not even scratching the surface of how terrible those days will be ... and you think that there will be a group of Christians on this planet?  Well, yes, you are right.  None will take the mark ... because none will be here to take it.  Only the lost and the hypocrites and the psuedoChristians will remain.



#19
Donibm

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@ Kingdom.

 

 

Yes ... but why consider them further?

 

Are they on 7 mountains?

 

Are they 2-fold (woman AND beast)?

 

Are they made drunk with the blood of the saints?

 

666 is also the number of a MAN, and who might that be in the EU?

 

They have no history.  Where is their link to Babylon?

 

 

Rightfully DIVIDE the Word of Truth.  See what the clues say.  Who do ALL the clues point to? 

 

:-)



#20
Cobalt1959

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@ Cobalt,

 

 

I wasn't actually responding "to" Oakwood.  I was delivering my own thoughts, but I wasn't responding to him.

 

 

2)

Christians of what time?  Where are "Christians" in the Book of Revelation once the Tribulation has begun?  All emphases is on Israel, not the Church.  Further, it is incorrect for you to suggest that only that generation would know.  Revelation itself says "HERE IS WISDOM.  LET HIM THAT HATH UNDERSTANDING..."

 

That says nothing about only that generation would understand.  It is saying that whomever is given the wisdom to know, will know.  That is why no one reading this can accuse me of taking just this one verse and running with it.  Instead, I've taken all clues and shown how they ALL point to the same thing.  RIGHTFULLY DIVIDE THE WORD

 

 

3)

You also have erred suggesting that its a conclusion that I want. The first time I studied Revelation, it was 1991 ... and I was "brand new" in that year.  I've read Revelation at least 6 times since, and studied it in equal portions.  You CANNOT just make it point to whomever you want.  You mentioned Islam.  Go ahead and try to make the clues point to Islam.  Try to make them point to America.  Try to make them point to the UN or anything else you want.  If you think that is possible, I'd like to see how that is accomplished.  But no, I've not fabricated or inserted a delusion or a lie.  History itself is on my side ... as is what we clearly can see today.

 

 

4)

Lastly, I am seeing something that is apparently common in these threads.  I see Scriptures applied out of context.  You cannot take a Scripture that is talking about FALSE MESSIAHS (plural, such as your Jim Jones, David Koresh, H.I.M., Sun Yong Moons ... and this other wacko who thinks he is Jesus and married to Mary) and apply that to THEE Antichrist of the Tribulation.  You are taking what is attributed to something completely different and applying it to a wrong context.  If it were at all possible concerns false religions, false doctrines, false christs ... not THEE Antichrist.

 

The antichrist will convince the world of a lie.

 

 

And I'm curious.  Since you think Christians will be around, and since it appears that you think that it's as simple as just "not taking the mark" ... let me ask you a few questions.

 

 

 

a)

Have you ever fasted before?  A real fast?  Have you never experienced what HUNGER PAINS feel like - those sharp, needle like feelings in the stomach?  But ... you think you will refuse to take the Mark and just let yourself  starve to death?

 

b)

Since you cannot buy or sell, are you ready to go withouth toothpaste, deodorant, loose all your possessions (cause you can't keep your apt or home if you don't make PAYMENTS)?  Are you dependant on medications to starve off illnesses ... so you'll just let your body suffer?

 

c)

Are you married?  Kids?  So, you'll just be willing to not only starve yourself and endure the slow, gruesome pain of death, but watch your spouse and child die also?

 

d)

For get about buying new clothes, or calling Joe Blow (you aren't PAYING you phone bill, remember?)  And don't forget the food crises where even a loaf of bread is costing a days wage.  With things THAT expensive, who do you think is going to give you any handouts?

 

e)

And since it is the WORST TIME MANKIND HAS EVEN EXPERIENCED, and since the Spirit is gone - the one who restrains evil - mankind will do whatever they want.  Rape a woman in broad daylight.  Kill dudes for no reasons.  Demons all over the world.  Nature out of wack and being destroyed.  But, you think that you'll just ... what?  Ride it out?

 

f)

And what about the torture?  Do you think they will ASK you to take the mark?  They will torture and kill you.  Do you think your body can endure without you giving in? They have torture methods now that can keep you alive, just to make sport of your torture.  Maybe you should read about the methods of the Inquisitions?  Read the Jesuit Oath of Induction.  Oh, and Islam certainly will be left behind.  See what they do to "infidels" while you are at it.

 

 

... are you sure you know the gravity and reality of what you think you know?  I'm not even scratching the surface of how terrible those days will be ... and you think that there will be a group of Christians on this planet?  Well, yes, you are right.  None will take the mark ... because none will be here to take it.  Only the lost and the hypocrites and the psuedoChristians will remain.

 

Wow.  Calm down or you will blow a head gasket.

 

1)  OK.

 

2)  I am quite well aware that the focus in Revelation is on Israel.  You seem to have read a great deal into what I wrote which wasn't there.  Are you saying that no one gets saved during the Tribulation except Jews?  I've actually heard others say that and I don't see how you can square that with scripture.

 

Since the Antichrist is not here now, and we are not in the Tribulation now, why would we need to know exactly what the 666 points to now?  Is it wrong to search for the answer?  No.  But why would there be a pressing need to have the knowledge now?  Are you going to have to go to work tomorrow and tell your boss whether you will take the Mark of the Beast or not?

 

And I never once implied that only that generation would understand.  I don't believe that we will have full understanding until that time comes.

 

3)  I personally believe that the end-time one-world religion will be a really bad amalgam of some kind of ecumenical nightmare including Catholicism, Islam, New Age and Emergent church.  Even so, you are telling me you can start your hypothesis in a vacuum not knowing all the other theories when it comes to this particular issue?  I've been studying Revelation since I was a kid, i.e. the early 70's and I have never, ever felt this pressing need to figure out exactly who the 666 pointed to because I have seen so many people labeled with it in that time that it numbs my brain.  And I never used the words "delusion" or "lie," so you might want to back yourself up a bit.

 

4)  Out of context?  Matthew 24 is out of context?  It isn't about the end times?  It isn't about the Tribulation?  I've studied hermeneutics, so I am not one to just cherry-pick verses and slap them down out of context.  So an accusation that passages from the Olivet Discourse are out of context when discussing the Tribulation is pretty amusing.

 

Your series of letters afterwards are aimed at . . . what?

 

I'm pretty stupid.  You might have to explain your theories to me in greater depth, because I am a low-grade moron and I just parachuted in to this whole Christian thing. 






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