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Where There Is No Law

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#1
Butero

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This subject has come up in another thread, but I think it deserves a discussion by itself.  My question is to those who say we are not obligated to keep the law of Moses in any part, because it was nailed to the cross, and we are under grace.  It is true that Paul said Christians don't sin, but if we are not under the law, we can't sin.  I don't mean because we don't desire to sin, but it would be impossible.  Sin is by definition the transgression of the law, so if there is no law, there can be no transgression.  If you believe we are under no obligation to keep any part of the law because it was done away with, you should be able to steal, kill, commit adultery, disrespect your parents, anything, and be guiltless, because there is no law in place saying you can't do those things.  Does anyone really believe that is the case, or do you really believe we are obligated to obey God's moral laws?  I would love as many opinions as possible.  Thanks in advance. 


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#2
gdemoss

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I am obligated to obey love. There is no law that couod be written that woukd make a man righteous. If love says kill then I must kill. If love says heal then I must heal. Obey love which is the truth metered out with grace and mercy.
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#3
LadyC

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the law doesn't create sin, but it exposes sin. in romans 7 it says that without the law, we would not have known right from wrong. (What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”)

 

so the law is good, and yet it brought death because of the penalty of sin. does that make the law bad? no, it just makes us aware. the penalty of sin (eternal death) has been removed though, through the atonement of Jesus Christ. this is what it means that Jesus didn't come to overturn the law, but to fulfill it. it is what it means that we are no longer under the law, but under grace. the law of God still exists, but we are no longer under the death penalty for breaking the laws.

 

sin is still sin.

 

but back to the question at hand... if God never defined something as sin, is it sin? nope. at least not to the entire population. God deals with people on an individual basis on matters that He has not specified the right or wrong of. so although playing a game of poker isn't a sin for all, it may be a sin for an individual because God has told that person no. drinking wine is also not sinful... for everyone. but it may be to the person standing next to you.

 

there are other instances as well that place certain things that would not otherwise be sin under God's law to still be sinful... the laws of the land. God tells us we are to obey the laws of the land insomuch as they do not require one to deny Him. therefore, even though God doesn't say in the bible that we can't use the cell phone in a school zone, we are required to obey the law that the state has implemented, and leave the cell phone alone while driving through the zone. if we fail to comply with that man-made law, we're sinning... not so much because we talked on the cell in a school zone, but because we failed to submit to the authority God has placed over us.


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#4
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This subject has come up in another thread, but I think it deserves a discussion by itself.  My question is to those who say we are not obligated to keep the law of Moses in any part, because it was nailed to the cross, and we are under grace.  It is true that Paul said Christians don't sin, but if we are not under the law, we can't sin.  I don't mean because we don't desire to sin, but it would be impossible.  Sin is by definition the transgression of the law, so if there is no law, there can be no transgression.  If you believe we are under no obligation to keep any part of the law because it was done away with, you should be able to steal, kill, commit adultery, disrespect your parents, anything, and be guiltless, because there is no law in place saying you can't do those things.  Does anyone really believe that is the case, or do you really believe we are obligated to obey God's moral laws?  I would love as many opinions as possible.  Thanks in advance. 

The old law was not done away with, but replaced with a new set of laws......   if you are of Christ you are no longer under the old law, but under the new commandments of love.....                  but if you look at the two, if you are really of Christ and you do live by his commands, you not only will not break any of the old laws, but more importantly you won't even want to.  I don't know anyone who thinks we can just run amuck and still be chosen to be with Jesus in heaven (or wherever we will be with him).


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#5
Sevenseas

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This subject has come up in another thread, but I think it deserves a discussion by itself.  My question is to those who say we are not obligated to keep the law of Moses in any part, because it was nailed to the cross, and we are under grace.  It is true that Paul said Christians don't sin, but if we are not under the law, we can't sin.  I don't mean because we don't desire to sin, but it would be impossible.  Sin is by definition the transgression of the law, so if there is no law, there can be no transgression.  If you believe we are under no obligation to keep any part of the law because it was done away with, you should be able to steal, kill, commit adultery, disrespect your parents, anything, and be guiltless, because there is no law in place saying you can't do those things.  Does anyone really believe that is the case, or do you really believe we are obligated to obey God's moral laws?  I would love as many opinions as possible.  Thanks in advance. 

 

 

Hmmm...I think this is actually a really and very old subject.  In fact, Paul (of biblical fame) addresses this very thing in a number of passages.  

 

I think I will go with the same response I gave in the other thread...I'm pretty sure I know which one you mean...wink_20.png

 

What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

5For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his.6For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with,a that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.

8Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

11In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. 14For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace. music_20.png star_20.png cake_20.png sunshine_20.png Romans 6

 

Amen!  thank you Paul!  happy_20.png

 

Those who are aware of the loving nature of our God understand that we do not go on sinning....in fact, we want to please our Lord and make Him happy!

 

ps.....where did Paul say Christians do not sin?  I'm not familar with that expression.....

 

Honestly Butero...the passage I responded with above does not say we are free to sin and you know very well no one in this forum has ever said such a thing!


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#6
Qnts2

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This subject has come up in another thread, but I think it deserves a discussion by itself.  My question is to those who say we are not obligated to keep the law of Moses in any part, because it was nailed to the cross, and we are under grace.  It is true that Paul said Christians don't sin, but if we are not under the law, we can't sin.  I don't mean because we don't desire to sin, but it would be impossible.  Sin is by definition the transgression of the law, so if there is no law, there can be no transgression.  If you believe we are under no obligation to keep any part of the law because it was done away with, you should be able to steal, kill, commit adultery, disrespect your parents, anything, and be guiltless, because there is no law in place saying you can't do those things.  Does anyone really believe that is the case, or do you really believe we are obligated to obey God's moral laws?  I would love as many opinions as possible.  Thanks in advance. 

 

Gentiles were never given the Mosaic law. The Mosaic law was given to the children of Israel.

 

Now, to the New Covenant:

 

Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts;

 

So, the New Covenant is not like, and not according to the covenant made when God led the children of Israel out of Egypt. The covenant was the Mosaic covenant. The New Covenant is not like the Mosaic covenant. Plus, this New Covenant will not be written on stone, but this new covenant is written on their hearts.

 

The NT describes sin as that which is not done in faith.

 

Romans 14:23  But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin.

 

That is not part of the Mosaic law. In the Mosaic law, there are very specific laws concerning food which is to be eaten. The NT says, if a person believes eating something is a sin, then it is a sin. However, if we believe eating whatever it was, is not a sin, it is not a sin to us. Wow. That is so different. But that comes from the law of the New Covenant written on hearts.

 

The Mosaic covenant is not the New Covenant. They are separate covenants. Christians are not under the Mosaic covenant so are not under the Mosaic law.


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#7
Butero

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This subject has come up in another thread, but I think it deserves a discussion by itself.  My question is to those who say we are not obligated to keep the law of Moses in any part, because it was nailed to the cross, and we are under grace.  It is true that Paul said Christians don't sin, but if we are not under the law, we can't sin.  I don't mean because we don't desire to sin, but it would be impossible.  Sin is by definition the transgression of the law, so if there is no law, there can be no transgression.  If you believe we are under no obligation to keep any part of the law because it was done away with, you should be able to steal, kill, commit adultery, disrespect your parents, anything, and be guiltless, because there is no law in place saying you can't do those things.  Does anyone really believe that is the case, or do you really believe we are obligated to obey God's moral laws?  I would love as many opinions as possible.  Thanks in advance. 

 

 

Hmmm...I think this is actually a really and very old subject.  In fact, Paul (of biblical fame) addresses this very thing in a number of passages.  

 

I think I will go with the same response I gave in the other thread...I'm pretty sure I know which one you mean...wink_20.png

 

What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

5For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his.6For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with,a that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.

8Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

11In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. 14For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace. music_20.png star_20.png cake_20.png sunshine_20.png Romans 6

 

Amen!  thank you Paul!  happy_20.png

 

Those who are aware of the loving nature of our God understand that we do not go on sinning....in fact, we want to please our Lord and make Him happy!

 

ps.....where did Paul say Christians do not sin?  I'm not familar with that expression.....

 

Honestly Butero...the passage I responded with above does not say we are free to sin and you know very well no one in this forum has ever said such a thing!

 

You didn't answer my question there or here.  If the law was done away with, sin no longer exists.  You can't sin.  It is not just that you don't want to sin, but you can't sin.  Where there is no law, there is no transgression.  The law was nailed to the cross.  It would be like Congress deciding to repeal the entire judicial code.  Suddenly, we are free to do anything with no fear of prosecution, because there are no laws on the books.  They are just gone.  You have been claiming we are under no obligation to keep any of the law, and that it was done away with.  You didn't explain that in the other thread or here. 


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#8
Butero

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Thanks to everyone so far that has posted in this thread.  I only addressed one post, because it wasn't really answering my question.  The others are clearly attempting to answer it, so I will try to take a closer look at them all this evening.  There is much to consider. 


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#9
Sevenseas

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I answered. In both threads.

 

Where did I or anyone else EVER state we are free to sin?  Be careful here, because it is not just you reading my posts.

 

You really do not have a verse that says the law saves us.  But I have a remedy for that and I posted that remedy from scripture and you ignore it

because it does not fit in with your opinion.

 

At any rate, I will leave for awhile as I did the thread yesterday because I am sure others would love to respond as well.


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#10
firestormx

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I really like post #3. It says just about what I was going to, but I will add this. This seems to be one of those subjects that just keeps coming up. It makes me wonder if some don't have a good understanding of the crucifixion's affect on the law? I got really messed up over the law once, on whether we have to obey the law or not. While we are under grace, Jesus made clear that if we love him then we will obey him. We obey because we love him, because he saves us. Our obedience doesn't save us, keeping the do's and don'ts will not save us. We are not saved by works, but by grace through faith in Jesus. Does this mean we can do anything we want? Of course not, because as I said, Jesus tells us in the bible that if we truly love him we will obey him. Does this mean all of the old law is thrown out? Of course not, How do we know what to obey out of love, if their is no Word?  Let me give an example of what I mean.

 

The old testament ( and the New ) teaches without blood there can be no remission ( forgiveness ) of sin. Which is one of the reasons for the sacrifices in the old testament. In the New testament it teaches the same thing except instead of the blood of animals that must be sacrificed over and over, we have the shed blood of Jesus given once and for all. So In the old and new testament both their is the requirement of blood for the remission ( forgiveness ) of sin. The crucifixion did not destroy the law of blood required for the remission ( forgiveness ) of sin, it just changed the requirement from animals over and over to Jesus once and for all. So their is no need for animal sacrifice over and over, because Jesus sacrifice has and does fulfill that part of the law. But shed blood is still required in the old testament and the new testament for the forgiveness/remission of sin.

 

A very similar thing with the ceremonial parts of the law. I mean the parts about bathing, preparation for entering God's presence and temple, what can and can't be eaten, touching dead bodies, and everything to do with being clean. In the old testament you had all these do's and don't's about staying clean. But Jesus said what he has cleaned is completely cleaned. it also says in the new testament that we are the righteousness of God in Jesus Christ. Simply put, our being clean, holy, and righteous is not found in do's and don'ts but in Jesus Christ by grace through faith. The requirement for us to be clean and holy is still their and still applies, It's just that now our holiness it's clearly not of ourselves but in the Lord Jesus by faith. Jesus fulfills this for us because we can't.

 

( a very simple explanation of both sacrificial and ceremonial law and the crucifixions effect on them, so please don't beat me over the head for what I've left out or missed. )

 

Now as for the moral parts of the law. Jesus said ( simply put ) if you look at a woman in lust you have already committed adultery with her.  In the old testament people perceived that you had to actually commit the adultery to commit the sin. Jesus clarifies that is not so, that if you commit the sin in your heart you are already guilty of committing it. Jesus makes clear as does the rest of the new testament that what is in your heart, the reason/motive/intention of things is important and can be sin all by them selves. I believe he is restoring back the standard of moral behavior that God has always used. Man had perverted and twisted it to be able to get away with as much as possible. Look back to the story of Noah and the flood. The bible says when God looked at man that he had created, " the thoughts and intents of man's heart was evil continually" . Even then God was looking at the heart.  Jesus restores the standard of proper behavior, because he obeyed from the heart perfectly when we never could. So in Jesus, by grace through faith our heart can be pure before God.  Jesus saves us, cleans us and then gives us a new heart....his very own. How can we not obey out of love?

 

 

May God bless you all

Firestormx

Joseph


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#11
Wildstar

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This subject has come up in another thread, but I think it deserves a discussion by itself.  My question is to those who say we are not obligated to keep the law of Moses in any part, because it was nailed to the cross, and we are under grace.  It is true that Paul said Christians don't sin, but if we are not under the law, we can't sin.  I don't mean because we don't desire to sin, but it would be impossible.  Sin is by definition the transgression of the law, so if there is no law, there can be no transgression.  If you believe we are under no obligation to keep any part of the law because it was done away with, you should be able to steal, kill, commit adultery, disrespect your parents, anything, and be guiltless, because there is no law in place saying you can't do those things.  Does anyone really believe that is the case, or do you really believe we are obligated to obey God's moral laws?  I would love as many opinions as possible.  Thanks in advance. 

 

 

Hmmm...I think this is actually a really and very old subject.  In fact, Paul (of biblical fame) addresses this very thing in a number of passages.  

 

I think I will go with the same response I gave in the other thread...I'm pretty sure I know which one you mean...wink_20.png

 

What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

5For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his.6For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with,a that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.

8Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

11In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. 14For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace. music_20.png star_20.png cake_20.png sunshine_20.png Romans 6

 

Amen!  thank you Paul!  happy_20.png

 

Those who are aware of the loving nature of our God understand that we do not go on sinning....in fact, we want to please our Lord and make Him happy!

 

ps.....where did Paul say Christians do not sin?  I'm not familar with that expression.....

 

Honestly Butero...the passage I responded with above does not say we are free to sin and you know very well no one in this forum has ever said such a thing!

 

You didn't answer my question there or here.  If the law was done away with, sin no longer exists.  You can't sin.  It is not just that you don't want to sin, but you can't sin.  Where there is no law, there is no transgression.  The law was nailed to the cross.  It would be like Congress deciding to repeal the entire judicial code.  Suddenly, we are free to do anything with no fear of prosecution, because there are no laws on the books.  They are just gone.  You have been claiming we are under no obligation to keep any of the law, and that it was done away with.  You didn't explain that in the other thread or here. 

 

Pretty much what I believe "I cant sin"  Because he did away with sin "once and for all".  however I still feel an obligation to follow his commandments to love


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#12
coheir

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Hebrews 10:16

This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

 

Below are some of Gods laws IN the New Covenant that He puts in a persons heart and mind after he accepts Jesus as savior.

So the new covenant does have laws to follow.

 

Romans 13:8, 9, 10

8 Owe no man anything, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9  For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10  Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.


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#13
Parker1

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LadyC is right on the money.


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#14
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the law was not done away with and never will be. look at Jesus he is our example of who to be and how to act. He didnt break one single commandment and he himself said he did not come to do away the law but to fulfill it. but we are human we will screw up but we are saved by grace, this however is not a golden ticket to sin to our hearts content.


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#15
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Pretty much what I believe "I cant sin"  Because he did away with sin "once and for all".  however I still feel an obligation to follow his commandments to love

 

I think if you read the last half of Matthew Chapter 25 it seems to me that feeling an obligation is an understatement.   Maybe I'm just being picky with my thoughts, but the feeling part just didn't seem right.


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#16
Wildstar

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Pretty much what I believe "I cant sin"  Because he did away with sin "once and for all".  however I still feel an obligation to follow his commandments to love

 

I think if you read the last half of Matthew Chapter 25 it seems to me that feeling an obligation is an understatement.   Maybe I'm just being picky with my thoughts, but the feeling part just didn't seem right.

 

Well I don't always walk in the best paths.  I consider my self not doing to well at this point in time.  But I can be thankful that God took away all my sin.  So I have no guilt.

 

In John 13 it says - Jesus answered, “Those who have had a bath need only to wash their feet; their whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you.”

 

I am clean.  My whole body is clean.  

 

I understand that walking in the Spirit is having fellowship with him.  And in God is no darkness.  Someone who says I love God but lives in darkness is a liar.

 

But again it says if we do sin we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ who took away all our sins, not our sins only, but the sins of the whole world.  

 

I am clean.  :)  


Edited by Wildstar, 16 July 2014 - 08:26 PM.

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#17
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Pretty much what I believe "I cant sin"  Because he did away with sin "once and for all".  however I still feel an obligation to follow his commandments to love

 

I think if you read the last half of Matthew Chapter 25 it seems to me that feeling an obligation is an understatement.   Maybe I'm just being picky with my thoughts, but the feeling part just didn't seem right.

 

Well I don't always walk in the best paths.  I consider my self not doing to well at this point in time.  But I can be thankful that God took away all my sin.  So I have no guilt.

 

In John 13 it says - Jesus answered, “Those who have had a bath need only to wash their feet; their whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you.”

 

I am clean.  My whole body is clean.  

 

I understand that walking in the Spirit is having fellowship with him.  And in God is no darkness.  Someone who says I love God but lives in darkness is a liar.

 

But again it says if we do sin we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ who took away all our sins, not our sins only, but the sins of the whole world.  

 

I am clean.   :)

 

I think you should read that very closely....


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#18
Wildstar

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We may be perceiving the same thing differently haha


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#19
tigger398

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I beleve what Jesus says. If you love me you will obey me. I want to follow the rules because I love Jesus. Thats the only reason.


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#20
shiloh357

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Pretty much what I believe "I cant sin"  Because he did away with sin "once and for all".  however I still feel an obligation to follow his commandments to love

 

No, Jesus didn't do away with sin.  The Bible doesn't say that.  Jesus paid the death penalty for your sin, but He did not do away with it.  You are still a sinner and yes, you still sin.  We are all still fallen sinners and all of  us sin at times.  Nowhere in the Bible does it say that you can't sin.


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