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Israel (Jews) and Our Views

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#1
GoldenEagle

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A friend we'll call Adam wrote the following to me...
 


God's chosen people has always been the Church, though primarily composed of the geo-political body of Israel for a time, but now expanded to include the elect from all tribes and tongues. The current day nation of Israel is no more God's chosen people than America or any other nation is. I pray for the peace of Jerusalem, as well, and for the repentance of the nation of Israel, who as a whole rejects the Messiah and has been cut off, and who are idolaters and cannot rightly be considered God's people in any sense.

The promises were made to the true seed of Abraham, Christ and those who are in Him. Please read Galatians 3.

 

 

First, how do you view Israel (Jews)?

Second, how would you respond to this friend?

God bless,

GE



#2
LadyC

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i still see israel as God's chosen people. i believe they are in error about Christ, but i believe that prophecy concerning them as a nation will play out exactly as scripture says it will. and that's what i'd tell my friend, if i were you. hopefully you'll be better equipped to explain the details of prophecy than i would be though!



#3
FresnoJoe

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....how would you respond to this friend....

 

~

 

True Seed

 

And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

 

And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

 

In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.

 

And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;

 

The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;

 

All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart. Zechariah 12:9-14



#4
Ozzy

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The state of Israel consists mostly of Jews who are of the tribe of Judah from the House of Jacob (Israel). There are 11 other tribes out there who have been scattered and God has promised to recover them and gather them back to the lands of their inheritance. They kept a wonderful history of their affairs with God for us to have. Let us not forget, they had the true gospel of the Messiah. The law of Moses was the gospel of Jesus Christ in a strict form. The Hebrews who kept this law were saved and entered into the kingdom of God. At some point, the house of Israel falls away from the truth and gets scattered. This sort of happened in two stages, around 700 BC and then again in 600 BC. The tribes are scattered, Judah is taken into Babylon. Then a remnant of Judah returns and vows to never commit idolatry again. So they form a system of rabbis and scribes to learn and interpret the law. Eventually, they add so much to the law and alter the true law of Moses that the Messiah comes among them and they reject him. More specifically, the LEADERS of rabbis and scribes reject him because he challenges their craft. Anyway, they reject the higher law and the apostles are then commanded to take it to the Gentiles. The Gentiles that repent will become adopted into the house of Israel, bear up the kingdom of God, preach the word to the world, and prepare for the return of the Lord. Then the gospel will be brought back to Israel - the first will be the last and the last will be the first.

 

But rest assured, even though Israel is stuck in the state of rabbinical doctrine, the Lord does remember His people. Do we think the Lord will forget His people? Your friend needs to spend some time in Isaiah, chapters 2 through 14. There he will learn all about the covenant people, the scattering of Israel, the light being given to the Gentiles who will bear an ensign to the nations, and the gathering of Israel. In essence, we who have the gospel now should be doing our best to bring back the Jews to the gospel. It is our responsibility to help them and nurse them back to the full light. "But Zion said, The Lord has forsaken me, and my Lord hath forgotten me. Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? Yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee." Isaiah 49:14-15



#5
Salty

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A friend we'll call Adam wrote the following to me...
 


God's chosen people has always been the Church, though primarily composed of the geo-political body of Israel for a time, but now expanded to include the elect from all tribes and tongues. The current day nation of Israel is no more God's chosen people than America or any other nation is. I pray for the peace of Jerusalem, as well, and for the repentance of the nation of Israel, who as a whole rejects the Messiah and has been cut off, and who are idolaters and cannot rightly be considered God's people in any sense.

The promises were made to the true seed of Abraham, Christ and those who are in Him. Please read Galatians 3.

 

 

First, how do you view Israel (Jews)?

Second, how would you respond to this friend?

God bless,

GE

 

While most of the Jews today are deceived and without Christ Jesus, Christ still has a plan for them to bring as many of them as possible back into His fold. Apostle Paul explained this in Romans 11, how God blinded Israel in part so The Gospel could go to the Gentiles. So since God Himself did that blindness upon that part of Israel, and Paul said it would continue until the times of the Gentiles is fulfilled, then who is to say the majority of them won't be converted to Christ at His coming?

 

So Romans 11 would be a good place to start in response to your friend. Then look at the Zechariah and Isaiah prophecies.



#6
OakWood

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Zechariah 8:23

 

As yet unfulfilled. Those who think that God has finished with the Jews are calling God a liar. God loves the Jews.



#7
Macs Son

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A friend we'll call Adam wrote the following to me...



God's chosen people has always been the Church, though primarily composed of the geo-political body of Israel for a time, but now expanded to include the elect from all tribes and tongues. The current day nation of Israel is no more God's chosen people than America or any other nation is. I pray for the peace of Jerusalem, as well, and for the repentance of the nation of Israel, who as a whole rejects the Messiah and has been cut off, and who are idolaters and cannot rightly be considered God's people in any sense.

The promises were made to the true seed of Abraham, Christ and those who are in Him. Please read Galatians 3.

 
First, how do you view Israel (Jews)?

Second, how would you respond to this friend?

God bless,
GE

 
While most of the Jews today are deceived and without Christ Jesus, Christ still has a plan for them to bring as many of them as possible back into His fold. Apostle Paul explained this in Romans 11, how God blinded Israel in part so The Gospel could go to the Gentiles. So since God Himself did that blindness upon that part of Israel, and Paul said it would continue until the times of the Gentiles is fulfilled, then who is to say the majority of them won't be converted to Christ at His coming?
 
So Romans 11 would be a good place to start in response to your friend. Then look at the Zechariah and Isaiah prophecies.


Sound advice Salty.
Scripture clearly states God is not yet done with Israel

I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness! .............
For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead

And so I pray for Israel, it is because my Lord loves her, yearns for her and has even wept for her.

“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing!


The love of my Love is my heart too!
In Christ, Pat

Edited by Macs Son, 28 July 2014 - 07:08 AM.


#8
other one

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Zechariah 8:23

 

As yet unfulfilled. Those who think that God has finished with the Jews are calling God a liar. God loves the Jews.

Does he really love the Jews, or is he really just following up on a promise to Abraham?  



#9
shiloh357

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A friend we'll call Adam wrote the following to me...
 


God's chosen people has always been the Church, though primarily composed of the geo-political body of Israel for a time, but now expanded to include the elect from all tribes and tongues. The current day nation of Israel is no more God's chosen people than America or any other nation is. I pray for the peace of Jerusalem, as well, and for the repentance of the nation of Israel, who as a whole rejects the Messiah and has been cut off, and who are idolaters and cannot rightly be considered God's people in any sense.

The promises were made to the true seed of Abraham, Christ and those who are in Him. Please read Galatians 3.

 

 

First, how do you view Israel (Jews)?

Second, how would you respond to this friend?

God bless,

GE

Sounds like Covenant Theology, to me.   His view would be true if Israel were a type of the church, but they are not.  No such Israel - Church typology can be found anywhere in the Bible.

 

The problem is that the NT treats Israel and the Church as radically separate.  The NT never refers to the Church in Israelite terminology.   In the OT, God refers to Israel as Jacob.  "Jacob" is a reference to the twelve tribes, but no such imagery is used to refer to the Church.  Romans 11 pretty much torpedoes the notion that Israel is the Church because Romans 11 is an appeal to the Church on behalf of Israel to be blessing to Israel.  So if the Church is Israel or vice versa, Romans 11 makes no sense.



#10
tigger398

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i still see israel as God's chosen people. i believe they are in error about Christ, but i believe that prophecy concerning them as a nation will play out exactly as scripture says it will. and that's what i'd tell my friend, if i were you. hopefully you'll be better equipped to explain the details of prophecy than i would be though!

 

Still drinking my coffee here, but I agree.  :thumbsup:



#11
Willa

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Let us not forget, they had the true gospel of the Messiah. The law of Moses was the gospel of Jesus Christ in a strict form. The Hebrews who kept this law were saved and entered into the kingdom of God. ---- Anyway, they reject the higher law and the apostles are then commanded to take it to the Gentiles. The Gentiles that repent will become adopted into the house of Israel, bear up the kingdom of God, preach the word to the world, and prepare for the return of the Lord.


This part of Ozzy's statement confuses me. Jesus is the only One Who is worthy of the Kingdom because He kept the law perfectly on our behalf. Old Testament saints were saved by faith, as was Abraham, and looked to their God for grace and mercy. They looked for the promised coming Messiah to be their rightous holy King, the Branch from David. But it was Jesus Who also provided the grace and mercy they longed for. And this is the Gospel. We are saved by GRACE through FAITH; and that not of yourselves; it is a GiFT from God, not of works (of the law) lest anyone should boast. Eph 2:8-9. The law of loving God, receiving His Messiah, and loving others has been written on our hearts as was promised by the prophets. This is the higher law that we are to preach to the nations.

The gospel that we are to take to the world is that we are saved by an unmerited gift from God--faith. It was provided through the death and blood sacrifice of the Jewish Messiah for the sins of the world. He was God in human flesh Who arose from the dead and ascended into heaven.

Rom. 9:30-32 That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; v.31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness has not obtained to the law of righteousness. v32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law.
Rom. 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

As to the OP, one cannot argue with Fresno Joe. He speaks God's Word. God's prophecies concerning the boundaries of the Promised Land have never been fullfilled. They are yet to be obtained by the Jewish people; and one day all Israel will be saved by embracing their Messiah. Rom. 11:25-27 Concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. v.28.
But God still loves the Jews, even those who have rejected Him. For God so loved the WORLD--including the Jews--that He gave His only begotten Son Jn3:16. But God demonstrates His love toward us, in that while we were still sinners Christ died for us. Rom 5:8. NKJV God loves the Jews to this day.

I see us as being grafted into Christ by faith and the all Jews being someday grafted into Christ by faith. And through Christ we are all attached to the root of the faith of Abraham.
But the land was promised to the Jewish people and will be realized by the remnant survivors of the tribulation who will populate it during the mellinium.

#12
Littlelambseativy

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Is Jesus not the root of the olive tree Israel and Israelites the branches and as Romans11 says because some branches were broken off it allowed born again Christians to be grafted in. We are warned not to think of ourselves as the true branches of the tree. We will never replace Israel in God the Father's eyes.

#13
Reformed Baptist

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Zechariah 8:23

 

As yet unfulfilled. Those who think that God has finished with the Jews are calling God a liar. God loves the Jews.

Those who believe that the amillennial or post millennial theological position presents such a notion have swallowed their own straw man! 

 

As for Zech 8:23 anyone can just throw out a scripture, but a proof text without a context is merely a pretext and such efforts only serve to weaken the position of the one making the argument. 



#14
Reformed Baptist

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Is Jesus not the root of the olive tree Israel and Israelites the branches and as Romans11 says because some branches were broken off it allowed born again Christians to be grafted in. We are warned not to think of ourselves as the true branches of the tree. We will never replace Israel in God the Father's eyes.

 

Four reasons why Paul’s concerns in Romans 11 are present and not future focused. 

The first reason is found in verse 1: I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.   Note how Paul answers his own question, “has God cast away His people?”   He does not answer, “May it never be! For do you not know that in the millennium God will restore Israel to her former glory?” No, rather in answer to his own question ,‘Has God cast away his people?’   Paul identifies himself as current proof that God’s purposes for Israel are being realized in the present time. Paul is saying it is not the case that God has entirely rejected Israel, rather he stills has a plan for Israel, and Paul himself was the living evidence of that plan – he does not point to the future but the present. 

Secondly we notice that Romans 11 focuses on God’s present intentions for Israel when we consider v5: “Even so then, at this present timethere is a remnant according to the election of grace.   (Rom 11:5 NKJ).” Notice particularly the phrase “at this present time” .  Clearly these two references  in v1 and 5 set this first paragraph of Romans 11 in the present age that Paul is writing in. 

I would contend that this concern with Israel’s present salvation continues into the next pericope (it must as Paul doesn't switch his language from talking about the present), which provides the third reason. V13-14 say “For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. (Rom 11:13 NKJ).”   Paul’s most earnest desire is that by his present ministry among the Gentiles he might see the salvation of his kinsmen according to the flesh. Is that not what he saying? Is it not readily apparent that by his current ministry to the gentiles he is expecting to see Jews moved to jealousy when they see Gentile believers sharing in the blessings of the messianic kingdom?

Fourth, the concluding paragraph (v30-32) emphasises the fact that the entire chapter is oriented not toward a future hope but a present expectation. For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also havenow been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. (Rom 11:30 NKJ) 

Notice those ‘now’s in these concluding verses, they indicate that Paul’s emphasis on the present responsiveness of Israel and not a future response from them in another age. 

 

Now Romans 11:26 in more detail

 

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel will be saved1, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; (Rom 11:26 NKJ) 

Or if you read Greek

καὶ οὕτως πᾶς Ἰσραὴλ σωθήσεται, καθὼς γέγραπται• ἥξει ἐκ Σιὼν ὁ ῥυόμενος, ἀποστρέψει ἀσεβείας ἀπὸ Ἰακώβ.

I am amazed by how people import the word ‘then’ into this verse. It changes the whole meaning of the text, shifting the focus to a future event that applies to the nation of Israel alone. However Paul does not say ‘then’, he says ‘so’ οὕτως – Paul is doing nothing more than summarising what he has said already – he is actually saying that the way God’s Israel will be gathered in will be by the process of the grafting of the gentiles into the olive tree that provokes a remnant of Jews to jealousy. How else do we understand the words "so/thus/ therefore"? 



#15
Qnts2

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Is Jesus not the root of the olive tree Israel and Israelites the branches and as Romans11 says because some branches were broken off it allowed born again Christians to be grafted in. We are warned not to think of ourselves as the true branches of the tree. We will never replace Israel in God the Father's eyes.

 

Four reasons why Paul’s concerns in Romans 11 are present and not future focused. 

The first reason is found in verse 1: I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.   Note how Paul answers his own question, “has God cast away His people?”   He does not answer, “May it never be! For do you not know that in the millennium God will restore Israel to her former glory?” No, rather in answer to his own question ,‘Has God cast away his people?’   Paul identifies himself as current proof that God’s purposes for Israel are being realized in the present time. Paul is saying it is not the case that God has entirely rejected Israel, rather he stills has a plan for Israel, and Paul himself was the living evidence of that plan – he does not point to the future but the present. 

Secondly we notice that Romans 11 focuses on God’s present intentions for Israel when we consider v5: “Even so then, at this present timethere is a remnant according to the election of grace.   (Rom 11:5 NKJ).” Notice particularly the phrase “at this present time” .  Clearly these two references  in v1 and 5 set this first paragraph of Romans 11 in the present age that Paul is writing in. 

I would contend that this concern with Israel’s present salvation continues into the next pericope (it must as Paul doesn't switch his language from talking about the present), which provides the third reason. V13-14 say “For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. (Rom 11:13 NKJ).”   Paul’s most earnest desire is that by his present ministry among the Gentiles he might see the salvation of his kinsmen according to the flesh. Is that not what he saying? Is it not readily apparent that by his current ministry to the gentiles he is expecting to see Jews moved to jealousy when they see Gentile believers sharing in the blessings of the messianic kingdom?

Fourth, the concluding paragraph (v30-32) emphasises the fact that the entire chapter is oriented not toward a future hope but a present expectation. For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also havenow been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. (Rom 11:30 NKJ) 

Notice those ‘now’s in these concluding verses, they indicate that Paul’s emphasis on the present responsiveness of Israel and not a future response from them in another age. 

 

Now Romans 11:26 in more detail

 

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel will be saved1, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; (Rom 11:26 NKJ) 

Or if you read Greek

καὶ οὕτως πᾶς Ἰσραὴλ σωθήσεται, καθὼς γέγραπται• ἥξει ἐκ Σιὼν ὁ ῥυόμενος, ἀποστρέψει ἀσεβείας ἀπὸ Ἰακώβ.

I am amazed by how people import the word ‘then’ into this verse. It changes the whole meaning of the text, shifting the focus to a future event that applies to the nation of Israel alone. However Paul does not say ‘then’, he says ‘so’ οὕτως – Paul is doing nothing more than summarising what he has said already – he is actually saying that the way God’s Israel will be gathered in will be by the process of the grafting of the gentiles into the olive tree that provokes a remnant of Jews to jealousy. How else do we understand the words "so/thus/ therefore"? 

 

 

 

Much of the verses are in present tense. Some speaks of continuing action. And some is futuristic.

 

You missed the following:

 

Romans 11:26 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;

 

First of all, this is speaking of a mystery, something not fully revealed. Part of the mystery is the Israel is partially hardened, but it has a limit. This partial hardening of Israel continues until the fullness of the Gentiles come in. Since there are still Gentiles being saved, there are still Gentiles coming in. Once that is complete, the operative until that happens occurs. Israel will no longer be partially hardened. Then Israel will come in.

 

So, while you say all that is spoken was present tense, you skipped the verse which sets a time limit which occurs in the future. Unless you want to contend that all Gentiles who will be saved have been saved.  



#16
other one

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Rom 11:25-32

25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery, lest you be wise in your own estimation, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fulness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and thus all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,

"The Deliverer will come from Zion,
He will remove ungodliness from Jacob."

27 "And this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins."

 

 

28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so these also now have been disobedient, in order that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32 For God has shut up all in disobedience that He might show mercy to all.
NASB

 

 

Just a thought from the old guy.......  They are beloved because of promises made to the fathers.  Jews have always turned from God after a generation or two, but God is faithful to his promise to Abraham...   Thought they are the enemy of the Gospel (both then and now), some time in the future when Gentiles come to fullness, they will turn to Jesus.

 

Though they are presently our enemy, we owe it to that stance for God extending to the Gentiles Jesus's saving grace.

 

At least that's what it seems to me....   To me Jews in general are not friends of the followers of Christ right now, but it's this very thing that gave us the opportunity to come to Christ.....   and to make it more problematic it was God himself that hardened them against accepting the gospel for our own good.   If God can respect them for the sake of promises made to their fathers, I think I must also......   even though at present they are not my friend.    and when I think that some day soon they will accept Jesus as their Lord it fills my heart with Joy.

 

Do I sound torn between two distinctly different positions......   I think so.   Why does God have to make things so complicated......   or did we do that ourselves?



#17
OakWood

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Zechariah 8:23

 

As yet unfulfilled. Those who think that God has finished with the Jews are calling God a liar. God loves the Jews.

Those who believe that the amillennial or post millennial theological position presents such a notion have swallowed their own straw man! 

 

As for Zech 8:23 anyone can just throw out a scripture, but a proof text without a context is merely a pretext and such efforts only serve to weaken the position of the one making the argument. 

 

 

Zech 8:23 is as yet unfulfilled scripture. No straw man here! Tell me at any point in history where this has happened before.



#18
FresnoJoe

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As for Zechariah 8:23 anyone can just throw out a scripture, but a proof text without a context is merely a pretext and such efforts only serve to weaken the position of the one making the argument.

 

~

 

A Pre Text May Establish The Truth

 

Thus saith the LORD of hosts; It shall yet come to pass, that there shall come people, and the inhabitants of many cities:

 

And the inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying, Let us go speedily to pray before the LORD, and to seek the LORD of hosts: I will go also.

 

Yea, many people and strong nations shall come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem, and to pray before the LORD.

 

Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations,

 

even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you:

 

for we have heard that God is with you. Zechariah 8:20-23

 

But Will Anybody

 

Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that it shall no more be said, The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;

 

But, The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north, and from all the lands whither he had driven them: and I will bring them again into their land that I gave unto their fathers.

 

Behold, I will send for many fishers, saith the LORD, and they shall fish them; and after will I send for many hunters, and they shall hunt them from every mountain, and from every hill, and out of the holes of the rocks. Jeremiah 16:14-16

 

Believe It?

 

Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.

 

Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things?

 

Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day?

 

or shall a nation be born at once?

 

 

for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

 

 

Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.

 

Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her:
 

That ye may suck, and be satisfied with the breasts of her consolations; that ye may milk out, and be delighted with the abundance of her glory.

 

For thus saith the LORD,

 

Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river,

 

and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream:

 

then shall ye suck, ye shall be borne upon her sides, and be dandled upon her knees.
 

As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem. Isaiah 66:7-13

 

~

 

It Just Amazes Me To Watch Those Who Claim The Name Of Jesus Of Yeshua

 

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: Romans 11:26

 

Stand And Shout To All The World That God, The Jew

 

But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

 

And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

 

Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,

Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. Matthew 1:20-23

 

The Beloved KING OF THE JEWS

 

And Pilate wrote a title, and put it on the cross. And the writing was, JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS. John 19:19

 

Will Not Gather Them

 

Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots. Luke 23:34

 

Back To Him

 

At the same time, saith the LORD, will I be the God of all the families of Israel, and they shall be my people.

 

Thus saith the LORD, The people which were left of the sword found grace in the wilderness; even Israel, when I went to cause him to rest.

 

The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.

 

Again I will build thee, and thou shalt be built, O virgin of Israel: thou shalt again be adorned with thy tabrets, and shalt go forth in the dances of them that make merry. Jeremiah 31:1-4

 

In Zion

 

For there shall be a day, that the watchmen upon the mount Ephraim shall cry, Arise ye, and let us go up to Zion unto the LORD our God.

 

For thus saith the LORD; Sing with gladness for Jacob, and shout among the chief of the nations: publish ye, praise ye, and say, O LORD, save thy people, the remnant of Israel.

 

Behold, I will bring them from the north country, and gather them from the coasts of the earth, and with them the blind and the lame, the woman with child and her that travaileth with child together: a great company shall return thither.

 

They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn. Jeremiah 31:6-9

 

As The Killing Machines

 

Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock.

 

For the LORD hath redeemed Jacob, and ransomed him from the hand of him that was stronger than he.

 

Therefore they shall come and sing in the height of Zion, and shall flow together to the goodness of the LORD, for wheat, and for wine, and for oil, and for the young of the flock and of the herd: and their soul shall be as a watered garden; and they shall not sorrow any more at all.

 

Then shall the virgin rejoice in the dance, both young men and old together: for I will turn their mourning into joy, and will comfort them, and make them rejoice from their sorrow. Jeremiah 31:10-13

 

Once Again Encircle The Jew But Now In God's Jerusalem

 

Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.

 

And they shall come thither, and they shall take away all the detestable things thereof and all the abominations thereof from thence.

 

And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

 

That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God. Ezekiel 11:17-20

 

I Wonder, Wherever Do These Followers

 

And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

 

Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; Colossians 2:13-14

 

Of Christ Find Such

 

And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

 

And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

 

And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

 

And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

 

And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Revelation 12:13-17

 

Hatred Of Israel

 

But thou, O LORD, shalt endure for ever; and thy remembrance unto all generations.

 

Thou shalt arise, and have mercy upon Zion: for the time to favour her, yea, the set time, is come.

 

For thy servants take pleasure in her stones, and favour the dust thereof.

 

So the heathen shall fear the name of the LORD, and all the kings of the earth thy glory.

 

When the LORD shall build up Zion, he shall appear in his glory. Psalms 102:12-16

 

Maranatha~!



#19
Reformed Baptist

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Much of the verses are in present tense. Some speaks of continuing action. And some is futuristic.

 

You missed the following:

 

Romans 11:26For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;

 

First of all, this is speaking of a mystery, something not fully revealed. Part of the mystery is the Israel is partially hardened, but it has a limit. This partial hardening of Israel continues until the fullness of the Gentiles come in. Since there are still Gentiles being saved, there are still Gentiles coming in. Once that is complete, the operative until that happens occurs. Israel will no longer be partially hardened. Then Israel will come in.

 

So, while you say all that is spoken was present tense, you skipped the verse which sets a time limit which occurs in the future. Unless you want to contend that all Gentiles who will be saved have been saved.  

 

 

I didn't skip the phrase, or at least not intentionally. And I believe it is Rom 11:25 (:D)

 

Οὐ γὰρ θέλω ὑμᾶς ἀγνοεῖν, ἀδελφοί, τὸ μυστήριον τοῦτο, ἵνα μὴ ἦτε [παῤ] ἑαυτοῖς φρόνιμοι, ὅτι πώρωσις ἀπὸ μέρους τῷ Ἰσραὴλ γέγονεν ἄχρι οὗ τὸ πλήρωμα τῶν ἐθνῶν εἰσέλθῃ 

 

The word ἄχρι is a temporal preposition as such it's linguistic function is to express the relationship betweens words or clauses in the sentence, the sense of the word conveys is the continuous extent of time up to a specific point (See Louw-Nida 67.119) - the best way to understand this word is to translate it 'as far as' for actually the word itself carries no implication that anything will happen after it. In context ἄχρι it does not function as pointing one forward to a future event, rather it functions as pointing towards when the current event will stop - which will be when all the gentiles have been gathered in.  

 

Paul then follows this up with καὶ οὕτως πᾶς Ἰσραὴλ σωθήσεται, καθὼς γέγραπται· ἥξει ἐκ Σιὼν ὁ ῥυόμενος, ἀποστρέψει ἀσεβείας ἀπὸ Ἰακώβ. which as I have already explained can be understood as 'then all Israel will be saved' it means 'so' or 'thus'. Paul's language here is incredibly awkward if he is meaning to imply a future actions after the gentiles have been gathered in, I am reading it in a far more natural way. I would also suggest that if this is the case one has to establish from elsewhere that there is a period of time after the gentiles have been gathered in for this event to occur, having done that one would have demonstrate the proper exegetical hooks to link what Paul is saying here with that time line one has established elsewhere and there are no such hooks in this text. I have read many attempts to link this to a supposed time line from Rev 20 for example - but those attempts always rely on supposition rather then sound exegesis.  

 

Now moving on σωθήσεται is future tense, that doesn't mean the actions has to occur in the future, especially not when linked with the indicative mood, rather it is simply stating a fact of occurrence. The voice is passive, meaning the salvation that has occurred for all Israel is not a result of their own action. So this leads me to conclude that Paul is saying 'at that point in time, when all the gentiles have been gathered in, all Israel will also have been saved' this is the only sense in which these words can be considered futuristic as Paul is looking forward to the completion of the current actions of God that he is addressing. Now, I might be wrong in my understanding - I suppose it isn't beyond the realms of possibility that the grammar and syntax here are awkward but if you put these words in front of first century Koine Greek reader who had no background and no pressuppositions to frame his grasp of the meaning I am pretty certain he would read it as I do :D     



#20
Reformed Baptist

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Zechariah 8:23

 

As yet unfulfilled. Those who think that God has finished with the Jews are calling God a liar. God loves the Jews.

Those who believe that the amillennial or post millennial theological position presents such a notion have swallowed their own straw man! 

 

As for Zech 8:23 anyone can just throw out a scripture, but a proof text without a context is merely a pretext and such efforts only serve to weaken the position of the one making the argument. 

 

 

Zech 8:23 is as yet unfulfilled scripture. No straw man here! Tell me at any point in history where this has happened before.

 

I never said that you were using a straw man in regards to you employment of Zech 8:23 I said that these words are a straw man. 

 

 

 

Those who think that God has finished with the Jews are calling God a liar. God loves the Jews.

 

They are built upon the a priori assumption that unless one agrees with your interpretation of God's future plan for Israel then said person must not have any notion of God have any future plan for Israel. It is a strawman because it does not allow the person to frame their theology in the context of their theology, but seeks to force them to use your definitions to phrase their theology. Of course God has a plan for the Jews, the new heavens and the new earth will be filled with Jews who have been saved by grace, it will also be populated by Gentiles who have also been saved by grace - just because I find no reference in scripture to God bringing in a whole generation of the Jews in one go does not mean that God I am saying God has no plan for Israel.  

 

In relation to Zech 8:23 I challenged you to establish a context for the verse so that it can properly be understood, rather then do that you have responded to a challenge with a question, rather then an answer. Well, here is the verse in immediate context:

 

Zechariah 8:20 "Thus says the LORD of hosts:`Peoples shall yet come, Inhabitants of many cities; 21 The inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying, "Let us continue to go and pray before the LORD, And seek the LORD of hosts. I myself will go also." 22 Yes, many peoples and strong nations Shall come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem, And to pray before the LORD.' 23 "Thus says the LORD of hosts:`In those days ten men from every language of the nations shall grasp the sleeve of a Jewish man, saying, "Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you."'" 
 
Notice firstly my friend, that the prophecy is all about the gathering in of the nations, and it's focus is not upon the Jewish man but rather upon the desire of those from the other nations to find God. They want to go along with the Jews who are being saved so that they might also be saved. Now notice the ratio of 10:1 this prophecy refers to a period when many gentiles will being gathered into Jerusalem whilst relatively few Jews are being gathered in. Now, if we abandon the assumption that this cannot possible be a reference to the spiritual Jerusalem, but must indicate the physical city of Jerusalem (i.e. if we take on board Heb 12:22-24) we see clearly that Zechariah was being pointed to the gospel age when Jew and gentile would be gathered in, so you ask if this has been fulfilled, and I respond by saying it is being fulfilled even today through that interplay between gentile and Jewish conversions that Paul so eloquently spells out in Romans 11.  
 
Feel free to disagree with me, but if you do it some counter exposition of the text would be really helpful to me :D





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