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    • Well, on one hand this kind of hurts because it is not "I" who "has" the Lord coming before the Trumpets, but the Word. 1.) Look at the broad overview given us in the Seal/Scroll chronology: Rev 6:12-13 - Sun/moon/star sign Rev 6:14 - Scrolling of the sky Rev 7:4-8 - “Mustering” the 144,000 Rev 7:9-17 - Great Multitude arrives in Heaven out of the Great Tribulation Rev 8:1 - Scroll opened with breaking of seventh Seal Rev 8:7 - First Trumpet fire and blood 1/3 of earth burned Rev 8:8 - Second Trumpet 1/3 of sea to blood Rev 8:10 - Third Trumpet 1/3 of water bitter Rev 8:12 - Fourth Trumpet 1/3 of light struck Rev 9:1-11 - Fifth Trumpet Abyss opened 5 months torment Rev 9:13-21 - Sixth Trumpet WWIII - 1/3 of man killed Rev 10:1-4/Rev 11:15 - Seventh Trumpet (no desolation mentioned) Rev 11:19 - Earthquake   This is a listing of the sequence of events the Lord gives us in His Word.  
      I even put chapter/verse references with it.
      This is the order GOD gives us.   Now - if the Great Multitude is the same as the Elect of Mt 24:31, who are taken out of the earth after the Great Tribulation
      - then indeed the Day of the Lord (with its signature sun/moon/star sign) comes before the trumpets of God's Wrath falls upon those left behind.
        2.) Look at the detailed, parallel account of the Harvest in Revelation chapters 13-16: In outline form from the four chapters of Revelation 13 through 16 here are the “events:” The rise of the fourth terrible beast of a nation out of the “sea” Worship of the beast (rebellion against God) Authority given (by God) to the beast of a man for one-half of the one 'seven' He wages war against the Saints We are to endure patiently (remember Rev 3:10 and John 17:15) Rise of the false prophet with miracles and 'fire from the sky' Erection of the talking image of the anti-Christ: the midpoint abomination Two laws which make the Great Tribulation the worst time ever for the Church in terms of persecution 144,000 assembled on Mount Zion 3 Angels fulfill the Great Commission / Warn the wicked Son of Man coming on the clouds Harvest from the clouds Avenging Angels - Blood and Fire First Bowl - Sores on Man Second Bowl - All sea to blood Third Bowl - All water to blood Fourth Bowl - Seared by heat Fifth Bowl - Satan's kingdom in the dark Sixth Bowl - Way for the King of the East - Battle at Armageddon N/S/E Seventh Bowl - Earth changing earthquake In chapter 14, we go 1-2 from the Harvest to God's Wrath! Harvest: 14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and sitting on the cloud was one like a son of man, having a golden crown on His head and a sharp sickle in His hand. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying out with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, " Put in your sickle and reap, for the hour to reap has come, because the harvest of the earth is ripe." 16 Then He who sat on the cloud swung His sickle over the earth, and the earth was reaped.
      Wrath:  17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, and he also had a sharp sickle. 18 Then another angel, the one who has power over fire, came out from the altar; and he called with a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, " Put in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters from the vine of the earth, because her grapes are ripe." 19 So the angel swung his sickle to the earth and gathered the clusters from the vine of the earth, and threw them into the great wine press of the wrath of God. 20 And the wine press was trodden outside the city, and blood came out from the wine press, up to the horses' bridles, for a distance of two hundred miles. You know, early on, I argued that the two Angels were part of the Harvest, but I was corrected on a message board (sharpened) and I saw the other guy was right. Notice too, that the two Angels in verses 17-20 -- do exactly what the First Trumpet of God's Wrath does! Rev 8:7 The first sounded, and there came hail and fire, mixed with blood, We get so caught up in the burning a third that we miss that the First Trumpet involves both fire and blood.  Well - here, in one of the few instances I can think of, God reveals how this comes about.  Like with the WWIII that will kill a third of the wicked, Angels are there to help make it happen.  They may be unseen, but there is a definite spiritual influence from God whose Hand shapes events in our world.  This should not sound so strange to us.
        So "I" do not "have" the Lord coming before the Trumpets.  Scripture sequences His Return before God's Wrath falls.
      And Paul stated that right in 1Th 5:9.
    • Of course its always easier to dismiss an argument then address it I do still wonder what is the presuppositional necessity of your understanding, does it have something to with your hermeneutic, by that I mean does it help your understand certain passages of scripture in the way that you do, perhaps it is eschatological significance to you?  
    • Yes it was the title of the thread, but we were discussing a sub-point of that - we were discussing if it is correct to use the word 'jew' to refer to the people from the northern kingdom. My pleasure I am afraid that simply isn't the case my friend, you might perceive you have addressed all my questions, but I don't think you have, for example I asked you directly to identify where the 10 tribes of the northern kingdom where in Paul's day  and looking back I don't see any answer to that question.  Furthermore, where I come from, and the way I was taught to make a argument and state a position was to do more then simply supply a handful of texts and expect the reader to assume what you are assuming. Your answers have most been throwing texts back at me that I have explained (without an much of explanation of your own). It seems to me your assumption is that the term 'jew' must mean more then judean because the term gentile (Greek) can't include the northern tribes for some reason - yet after the invasion of Assyria that is precisely what happened, the northern tribes were assimilated into gentile nations - but I can't be sure because there has been so little actual explanation   Isn't that the point of discussion, to see not only where we disagree, but to explore why we disagree? Isn't that a good thing?   Anything that makes us turn to God's word and test our understanding is surely helpful to us, the truth of the matter is my friend either you are right, or I am right or we are both wrong - that should be enough to make search the scriptures again and if we do that then this has been profitable to us Maybe you are right, I have said my piece, I am content to let the situation rest, and allow others to judge between the cases presented 
    • There are discrepancies between the various textual traditions in regards to the ages of certain people within the genealogies of the Old testament, if you use the masoretic text you will get a different answer then if you use the Septuagint, the texts and the methods employed by Jewish people have settled the date at 5776 but we must understand this is calculation, they worked it back, it is not as if someone started counting at the dawn of creation and that count has been passed on from generation to generation.  However returning to the OP which states that this world will last 6000 years and then will come the millennium, if that is the case why did Jesus Christ say 'only the father knows' and why is the bible so clear that the return of the Lord Jesus will be sudden and unexpected - like a thief in the night?  
    • He is certainly ecumenical I quite agree
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