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    • Sure. But that still doesn't show a 2nd and 3rd appearance of Jesus. I do not. Only bowls are wrath as they are the ones called wrath. The Trumps are not wrath and occur before the midpoint, in some cases, per Joel: In Joel 1 we are told by prophecy: 9Grain and drink offerings have been cut off from the house of the LORD; the priests are in mourning, those who minister before the LORD. This is the midpoint when the A of D has occurred. Then Joel 1 tells us this: 10The field is ruined; the land mourns. For the grain is destroyed, the new wine is dried up, and the oil fails. Be dismayed, O farmers, wail, O vinedressers,  over the wheat and barley, because the harvest of the field has perished. So at the time of the A of D, the grain is destroyed and the harvest is no more. This is what the 1st Trump does: "7Then the first angel sounded his trumpet, and hail and fire mixed with blood were hurled down upon the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, along with a third of the trees and all the green grass." Grain is grass. No harvest, the grain destroyed. At the time of the midpoint, before tribulation and well before God's wrath. Joel 1 also says: The grapevine is dried up, and the fig tree is withered; the pomegranate, palm, and apple— all the trees of the orchard—are withered. Why are they withered and not burned? Lack of fresh water, perhaps? The 3rd Trump: "Then the third angel sounded his trumpet, and a great star burning like a torch fell from heaven and landed on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water. 11The name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters turned bitter like wormwood oil,a and many people died from the bitter waters." That's probably not too good for vines and orchards. It looks to me like Trumps are sounding in the first half of the week before the A of D, or at the time of the A of D and of course, well before God's wrath falls.  I would say the Trumps are increasing the pressure on people by creating a lack of daily needs, hoping to get their attention that they turn turn to God and repent and beg forgiveness, but they are not wrath.   I understand. I don't care for the terminology. It's all God's doing within the overall plan. Satan can do nothing unless permitted, he's a tool God uses. Small distinction perhaps, but I think an important one.  
    • It doesn't say the prince destroys it.   And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The people, the Romans, destroy it, and the prince who is to come is Roman. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come. “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), Matthew 24:14‭-‬15 NKJV https://bible.com/bible/114/mat.24.14-15.NKJV Abomination of desolation will be in the end.        
    • Hello again, @Retrobyter Again as I have shown you before, the words of Christ spoken by the apostles is what would baptize (immerse)  into the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost we become one with them.  Joh 17:20  Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;  Joh 17:21  That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.  The words of Christ which is the word of God now has the power of the Spirit and it has nothing to do with sinful flesh. I ask you, do you think one can cleanse their flesh and make it acceptable to a Holy God when it is nothing but dirt? Joh 6:62  What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?  Joh 6:63  It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.  Keeping water baptism which was for remission of sins is the problem, it was not a picture of something that would happen or already happened but it was a required act to receive remission. Christ is the truth and the life and He gave us a new message for remission of sins via the new testament in His blood (Mat 26:28) ( hear Him). Most reject His blood or dilute it with water to cleanse their filthy sinful bodies making His blood ineffectual, this is what Paul was conveying. 1Co 1:17  For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not withwisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.    One fact is this, Christ did not use the word water in His commission to the apostles. He was going to ascend and send His Holy Spirit to back up His words. You are arguing for two baptisms when Paul clearly stated there is only one. Eph 4:5  One Lord, one faith, one baptism,    Negative, what you are doing is keeping and old testimony for remission of sins “repent and be baptized in water for remission of sins“. If you want a clean conscience before God believe in the sacrifice of His son and that only His blood has the power cleanse man and if we believe in His resurrection we will have a clean conscience. 1Pe 3:20  Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.  1Pe 3:21  The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:  1Pe 3:22  Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him. How can one believe this is a reference to water baptism? The ark represents Christ who now is our salvation if we are in Him and Noah did not get wet. The ones that got wet were destroyed. Heb 9:13  For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:  Heb 9:14  How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?  Heb 9:15  And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.  Heb 9:16  For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.  Heb 9:17  For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.  Water baptism prepared priests to recieve the sacrific and they were to kill it and apply the blood.  Again, water baptism was not and is not a picture of salvation.  
    • Shabbat shalom, again, @Cntrysner. Regarding Ephesians 2:6, it's been erroneously translated many times, and we should take a very close look at it in light of the Greek: First, here's the King James translation within the context: Ephesians 2:1-10 (KJV) 1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation (lifestyle) in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us (has made us alive) together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus: 7 That IN THE AGES TO COME he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Now, let's look at the Greek: 1 Καὶ ὑμᾶς ὄντας νεκροὺς τοῖς παραπτώμασιν καὶ ταῖς ἁμαρτίαις 2 ἐν αἷς ποτε περιεπατήσατε κατὰ τὸν αἰῶνα τοῦ κόσμου τούτου κατὰ τὸν ἄρχοντα τῆς ἐξουσίας τοῦ ἀέρος τοῦ πνεύματος τοῦ νῦν ἐνεργοῦντος ἐν τοῖς υἱοῖς τῆς ἀπειθείας· 3 ἐν οἷς καὶ ἡμεῖς πάντες ἀνεστράφημέν ποτε ἐν ταῖς ἐπιθυμίαις τῆς σαρκὸς ἡμῶν ποιοῦντες τὰ θελήματα τῆς σαρκὸς καὶ τῶν διανοιῶν καὶ ἤμεν τέκνα φύσει ὀργῆς ὡς καὶ οἱ λοιποί·  4 ὁ δὲ θεὸς πλούσιος ὢν ἐν ἐλέει διὰ τὴν πολλὴν ἀγάπην αὐτοῦ ἣν ἠγάπησεν ἡμᾶς 5 καὶ ὄντας ἡμᾶς νεκροὺς τοῖς παραπτώμασιν συνεζωοποίησεν τῷ Χριστῷ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι 6 καὶ συνήγειρεν καὶ συνεκάθισεν ἐν τοῖς ἐπουρανίοις ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ 7 ἵνα ἐνδείξηται ἐν τοῖς αἰῶσιν τοῖς ἐπερχομένοις τὸν ὑπερβάλλοντα πλοῦτον τῆς χάριτος αὐτοῦ ἐν χρηστότητι ἐφ᾽ ἡμᾶς ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ 8 τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι διὰ τῆς πίστεως· καὶ τοῦτο οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον· 9 οὐκ ἐξ ἔργων ἵνα μή τις καυχήσηται 10 αὐτοῦ γάρ ἐσμεν ποίημα κτισθέντες ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ ἐπὶ ἔργοις ἀγαθοῖς οἷς προητοίμασεν ὁ θεὸς ἵνα ἐν αὐτοῖς περιπατήσωμεν. Verses 6 and 7 are transliterated as .... 6 kai suneegeiren kai sunekathisen en tois epouraniois en Christoo Ieesou 7 hina endeixeetai en tois aioosin tois eperchomenois ton huperballonta plouton tees charitos autou en chreestoteeti ef' heemas en Christoo Ieesou  And this is translated word-for-word into English as ... 6 And He-raised-[us]-up-together and made-[us]-sit-together in the [places]-above-the-skies in Messiah Yeeshuwa` 7 so-that He-might-show in the ages the-ones that-are-coming the over-shooting riches of the grace of-Him in kindness upon us in Messiah Yeeshuwa` We're not already there physically in "the places above the skies," except in the Person of the Messiah Yeeshuwa` who is there physically NOW! Rather, "IN THE AGES THAT ARE COMING" He will show the abundant riches of His grace in kindness upon us in the Messiah Yeeshuwa`.    
    • Thanks, but do any of the 5 reference verses in the OT? So much of Revelation can be found in the OT… 
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