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    • Thanks, but do any of the 5 reference verses in the OT? So much of Revelation can be found in the OT… 
    • As I stated in above post, I do not subscribe to a 7 year tribulation period do to lack of scriptural support. It is that only last “one week” in verse 27, which has become commonly referred to as Daniel’s seventieth week, that has become popularly known and widely accepted as representing a seven year tribulation period. Because we are instructed to verify the accuracy of any theology being promoted as biblical and taught in the name of Jesus Christ, it is wisdom to always look for at least a second, and possibly a third scriptural confirmation to support the text from which the theology is being taught. That is why I created the list below of the various seven-year periods mentioned in the Bible, excluding those pertaining to genealogy records. To keep the list reasonably short only a brief description is given with the scripture references alone provided.  1.    There is the two separate seven-year periods for which Jacob labored for Rachael. The first in which he was tricked and given Leah instead, followed by the next seven years after which he indeed received Rachael, (Genesis 29:18-28).   2.    The seven years of plenty and the seven years of famine with Joseph in Egypt, (Genesis 41).  3.    Six years the Jews were permitted to sow their land and to gather in the fruits thereof. But the seventh was the sabbatical Shemitah year in which they were to let the land rest, that the poor people may eat, and what remained was for the beasts of the field, (Leviticus 25:2-7).  4.    Seven times the seven Sabbath years to the Year of Jubilee, (Leviticus 25:8).  5.    The time to build the city of Hebron, (Numbers 13:22).  6.    At the end of six years when a Hebrew had been sold into servitude, they were to be released and set free at the beginning of the sabbatical Shemitah year, (Deuteronomy 15:1, 31:10).  7.    Israel did evil in the sight of the LORD: and the LORD delivered them into the hand of Midian for seven years, (Judges 6:1).  8.    The young bullock that Gideon used to throw down the altar of Baal was seven years old, (Judges 6:25).  9.    Jephthah judged Israel seven years, (Judges 12:9).  10.    The seven years of famine under David and Samuel, (2nd Samuel 24:13).  11.    David reigned seven years in Hebron (I Kings 2:11).  12.    The seven years of famine with Elisha. (2nd Kings 8:1-2).  13.    The seven years of burning weapons after the war with Gog and Magog, which if there is a seven-year tribulation immediately before the return of Christ, then this war needs to occur before then. (Ezekiel 39:9.)  14.    Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser:  she was of a great age, and had lived with a husband seven years, (Luke 2:36).  Of all these, only number 7 might remotely be construed as a seven year tribulation period. Still, there is no mention of a great war, or a slaughtering of the Jews, only that they fled and hid in caves and were greatly impoverished. This is hardly a type and shadow of what is taught as the Great Tribulation.   Consequently, Daniel’s seventieth week period is the only “seven year” scriptural reference that I personally am aware of which is used as foundation for the theology of the “seven year tribulation.” According to the popular teaching of this theology, the division “in the midst of the week” is when the antichrist does away with the animal sacrifices that supposedly will be reinstated in a yet to be built third temple in Jerusalem.  Now I am well aware how seven years divided by two equals three and a half years, and I acknowledged that there are also several three and a half year periods mentioned in scriptures; being referred to as “time, times, and half of time,” 42 months, or periods of 1260 days, 1290 days, and 1335 days.  But, with all these segments of time recorded in scripture, it is not surprising there has always been a lot curiosity as to what these times mean. Sadly, this has resulted in an untold number of exhaustive calculations having been made in an attempt to learn just when they might occur. It is astounding the extreme lengths some of these would-be theologians and prophets have labored to prove they know the dates of these times and when they will occur, especially since scripture clearly states the revelation for some of them are "sealed until the end." That means God must reveal it, and He will in His time.  Job 32:8 – But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty gives them understanding.  Proverbs 2:6 – For the LORD gives wisdom, and out of His mouth comes knowledge and understanding.  1st Corinthians 2:11 – For what man knows the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knows no man, but the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have not received the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Ghost teaches; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.  To assume all the various three and a half year periods mentioned in scripture must be related to either the beginning or end of a seven-year tribulation period would be as imprudent as believing all the previously mentioned seven-year periods were all referencing the same period of time. To me a careful and honest examination of them should produce evidence enough for a thorough dismissal of such nonsense. Therefore, it is reasonable to openly evaluate the meaning or probability of things, and time frames in scripture, I believe considerable caution must be taken when asserting things to an absolute conclusion. For even recent history shows it isn’t hard for someone to earn the title of “false” teacher or prophet.   But again, that not to say we shouldn’t consider and compare such texts in-and to the light of history while prayerfully seeking understanding through the Holy Spirit’s illumination. We must first be diligent students of God’s word, and perhaps the greatest reward of study, persistent prayer, and seeking to prove all things, will be the avoidance of being carried away by the flood of false doctrines. For the Holy Spirit warned such would be abundantly promoted in the last day through arrogant men thinking themselves to be something they are not.  I am persuaded through scripture that understanding, true clear and accurate understanding, is given by direct commandment of God who first tries the hearts of men. It is never the product of clever men being able to calculate their way through hidden codes in scripture and Harold Camping’s date setting errors should be a sufficient warning to any aspiring date setter. But again, that doesn’t mean we should not, and/or cannot know the times in which we are living, after all Daniel did. Didn’t he?  Matthew 11:25 – At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because You have hid these things from the wise and prudent, and have revealed them unto babes.      I don't recall mentioning the rapture...   I, my friend, am a seeker of truth, and I find the best avenue is having an ear to hear what the Spirit is saying, for it is He who was sent to lead us into all truth. But again, "to whom will He teach knowledge? And whom will He make to understand the message? Those just weaned from milk, those just drawn from the breasts. But precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept. Line upon line, line upon line. Here a little, there a little." But the regathering of the Jews to their land is a fulfillment of prophecy, it is but another prophetic sign, while being caught up into the clouds to meet Him is a consummation of prophecies.   The Jews (admittingly not all, they cannot agree on things much better than Christians can) believed that the seven days of creation represented seven millennial days, or a period of 7000 years. The first six millennial days where (as according to the 4th commandment) were for men to work out their salvation, and the seventh was the rest of the Lord, where they who did so, and suffered with Him, would indeed be rewarded by reigning with Him. We see this in Hosea 5, where we read how they were going to reject Christ and He was going to be "like a lion to Ephraim, And like a young lion to the house of Judah. I, even I, will tear them and go away; I will take them away, and no one shall rescue." And then He would return "again to My place Till they acknowledge their offense. Then they will seek My face; In their affliction they will earnestly seek Me." Then Hosea gives prophetic voice to the Jews at that time of repentance and turning to Jesus Christ in chapter 6, "Come, and let us return to the LORD; For He has torn, but He will heal us; He has stricken, but He will bind us up. After two days He will revive us; On the third day He will raise us up, That we may live in His sight." This is the passage Peter was directing us to when he wrote the following -  2 Peter 2:1-10,  Beloved, I now write this second letter to you, in which I stir up your pure mind to remember the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of the Lord and Savior by us, the apostles.   First, knowing this, that there will come in the last days scoffers walking according to their own lusts and saying, Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.5 For this is hidden from them by their willing it, that the heavens were of old, and the earth out of the water, and through water, being held together by the word of God, through which the world that then was, being flooded by water, perished. But the present heavens and the earth being kept in store by the same word, are being kept for fire until the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.  But, beloved, let not this one thing be hidden from you, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. For the Lord is not slow concerning His promise, as some count slowness, but is long-suffering toward us, not willing that any of us should perish, but that all of us should come to repentance.  But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a rushing noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat. And the earth and the works in it will be burned up. There is much to address above, but time prohibits for now.  But I do appreciate you posting and the structuring of your thoughts, many I once shared, and I do appreciate the noting of "strengthens THE Covenant" over the word spinning of calling it a peace treaty. But IMHO it is speaking of Jesus Christ confirming the covenant of God with His people via His own resurrection which fulfilled the prophetic purpose of the Law, cause it to die having be so fulfilled. Yet, as I posted above, the Jews continuing in their sacrifices rejecting Christ, though one was lawful, was now an "overspreading of abominations, whereby He (God) made it (the Temple) desolate, even unto the consummation (the end)." Therefore, I do not believe the  temple will ever be rebuilt...
    • I personally do not subscribe to a 7 year tribulation, and feel the "great tribulation" was under the siege of Titus wherein more Jews by by atrocities of their own countrymen than by the hands of the Romans, (see my post above). Furthermore, the "great tribulation" also comes with the comment "such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." That "nor ever shall be" shows that time will continue for the world after this period, whereas that is not so in the eschatological view embracing a seven (great) tribulation and the end of the age with Christ's return.  
    • Can you explain how this prophetic message of which the angel's says, the "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy," and has the primary focus on the coming of "Messiah the Prince," who Himself prophesied of the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem, suddenly abruptly changes to an antichrist figure in the verse 27? What is the overspreading of abominations was the crucifying Christ afresh with the Jews rejection of Jesus Christ and continuing to sacrifice the type and shadow in rejection for the fulfillment? Is not that what we read in Hebrews, the weakness of the law, the worthlessness of the blood of animals, and how "he says, 'A new covenant, He has made the first old. so that which decays and waxes old is ready to vanish away?' " Concerning Matthew 24:15, I submit the following for consideration -   Adam Clarke’s Commentary: Verse 15.   The abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel] This abomination of desolation, St. Luke, (Lu 21:20,21,) refers to the Roman army; and this abomination standing in the holy place is the Roman army besieging Jerusalem; this, our Lord says, is what was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, in the ninth and eleventh chapters of his prophecy; and so let every one who reads these prophecies understand them; and in reference to this very event they are understood by the rabbins.  The Roman army is called an abomination, for its ensigns and images, which were so to the Jews.  Josephus says, (War, b. vi. chap. 6,) the *Romans brought their ensigns into the temple, and placed them over against the eastern gate, and sacrificed to them there.  The Roman army is therefore fitly called the abomination, and the abomination which maketh desolate, as it was to desolate and lay waste Jerusalem; and this army besieging Jerusalem is called by St. Mark, Mr 13:14, standing where it ought not, that is, as in the text here, the holy place; as not only the city, but a considerable compass of ground about it, was deemed holy, and consequently no profane persons should stand on it. *Havercamp’s note here: “This (says he) is a remarkable place; and Tertullian truly says in his Apologetic, ch. 16. p. 162, that the entire religion of the Roman camp almost consisted in worshipping the ensigns, in swearing by the ensigns, and in preferring the ensigns before all the [other] gods.” Josephus – Wars Book 5 -Chap.1  – para. 1 – THE SEDITIONS AT JERUSALEM AND WHAT TERRIBLE MISERIES AFFLICTED THE CITY BY THEIR MEANS; Now as to the attack the zealots made upon the people, and which I esteem the beginning of the city’s destruction, it hath been already explained after an accurate manner; as also whence it arose, and to how great a mischief it was increased. But for the present sedition, one should not mistake if he called it a sedition begotten by another sedition, and to be like a wild beast grown mad, which, for want of food from abroad, fell now upon eating its own flesh. para. 3 – . . . slew moreover many of the priests, as they were about their sacred ministrations. For notwithstanding these men were mad with all sorts of impiety, yet did they still admit those that desired to offer their sacrifices, although they took care to search the people of their own country beforehand, and both suspected and watched them; while they were not so much afraid of strangers, who, although they had gotten leave of them, how cruel soever they were, to come into that court, were yet often destroyed by this sedition; for those darts that were thrown by the engines came with that force, that they went over all the buildings, and reached as far as the altar, and the temple itself, and fell upon the priests, and those that were about the sacred offices; insomuch that many persons who came thither with great zeal from the ends of the earth, to offer sacrifices at this celebrated place, which was esteemed holy by all mankind, fell down before their own sacrifices themselves, and sprinkled that altar which was venerable among all men, both Greeks and Barbarians, with their own blood; till the dead bodies of strangers were mingled together with those of their own country, and those of profane persons with those of the priests, and the blood of all sorts of dead carcasses stood in lakes in the holy courts themselves. And now, “O must wretched city, what misery so great as this didst thou suffer from the Romans, when they came to purify thee from thy intestine hatred! ‘For thou couldst be no longer a place fit for God, nor couldst thou long continue in being, after thou hadst been a sepulcher for the bodies of thy own people, and hadst made the holy house itself a burying-place in this civil war of thine. Yet mayst thou again grow better, if perchance thou wilt hereafter appease the anger of that God who is the author of thy destruction.” But I must restrain myself from these passions by the rules of history, since this is not a proper time for domestical lamentations, but for historical narrations; I therefore return to the operations that follow in this sedition. Cross references: Luke 13:1 –  There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose you that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things? 3 I tell you, Nay: but, except you repent, you shall all likewise perish. 4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think you that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.  Josephus – Wars Book 5 -Chap.1  – para. 5 They agreed in nothing but this, to kill those that were innocent. The noise also of those that were fighting was incessant, both by day and by night; but the lamentations of those that mourned exceeded the other; nor was there ever any occasion for them to leave off their lamentations, because their calamities came perpetually one upon another, although the deep consternation they were in prevented their outward wailing; but being constrained by their fear to conceal their inward passions, they were inwardly tormented, without daring to open their lips in groans. Nor was any regard paid to those that were still alive, by their relations; nor was there any care taken of burial for those that were dead; the occasion of both which was this, that every one despaired of himself; for those that were not among the seditious had no great desires of any thing, as expecting for certain that they should very soon be destroyed; but for the seditious themselves, they fought against each other, while they trod upon the dead bodies as they lay heaped one upon another, and taking up a mad rage from those dead bodies that were under their feet, became the fiercer thereupon. They, moreover, were still inventing somewhat or other that was pernicious against themselves; and when they had resolved upon any thing, they executed it without mercy, and omitted no method of torment or of barbarity. Josephus – Wars Book 6 -Chap.2  – para. 1 – HOW TITUS . . . PERSUADED JOSEPHUS TO EXHORT THE JEWS AGAIN [TO A SURRENDER]. And WHO IS THERE THAT DOES NOT KNOW what the writings of the ancient prophets contain in them, – and particularly that oracle which is just now going to be fulfilled upon this miserable city? For they foretold that this city should be then taken when somebody shall begin the slaughter of his own countrymen. And are not both the city and the entire temple now full of the dead bodies of your countrymen? It is God, therefore, it is God himself who is bringing on this fire, to purge that city and temple by means of the Romans,  and is going to pluck up this city, which is full of your pollutions.”
    • Just for the record, I believe “the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary” is Titus Caesar, Vespasian’s son who completed the siege on Jerusalem resulting in the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 a.d. The verse in Daniel 7:25 is written in Aramaic, and not Hebrew, for from Daniel 2:4 to the of chapter 7 is all written in Aramaic. This was possibly done so and written for Nebuchadnezzar, to whom God had given the dream of and image and also humbled with his seven years chastisement, for chapter 8 begins under the reign of his grandson Belshazzar.  That said, and for what it worth, the phrase in 7:25, “And he… shall wear out <bel-aw'> the saints of the Most High” uses the word noted and so translated only once in scripture. It is stated in an interlinear that word <bel-aw'> corresponds to the Hebrew word #1086 (but used only in a mental sense) and means “to afflict:--i.e. wear out.” In Hebrew, the word <balah> means “to fail; by implication to wear out, or decay (causatively, consume, spend):--consume, enjoy long, become (make, wax) old, spend, waste.”  The implication is not so much as so many commentators interpret it, as great slaughter, but more of them and their gospel being reduced (seduced) to a state of being unprofitable. I personally feel this is a verse in a chapter from which the Apostle Paul would have taught the saints in his day of how Rome was  going  to fall from its height of power into smaller fractions, and in doing so give way for the rise of the apostacy of the papacy who would leaven the gospel and in doing so render many professing Christ to become unprofitable to the furtherance of the Kingdom. But... this is a departure from the main topic of what is the scriptural foundation of the seven-year tribulation theology….
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