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Question About Repentance/Lordship Salvation

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#1
Tinky

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I'm looking for opinions about this issue, please.


What is your belief on repentance? Is it:



1. Simply to change one's mind

2. Turning from sin


If it's #2, is that considered a "work?"



And: In your opinion, is "Lordship Salvation" Biblical?



Thanks in advance!


Blessings :heart:

#2
Omegaman

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It is a turning from sin to be sure, A change of direction, away from the things that displease God, toward Him and doing his will. We will not do it perfectly, but our focus and aim changes,
It is a work yes, in that it is something we do, but it is also a work of God, becuase we cannot have that change of heart, apart from Him.

If I understand Lordship salvation correctly, no, it is not biblical. We cannot make Jesus Lord, He already is Lord. We are not saved by our obedience, obedience is the evidence of our salvation. We are not saved by good works, we are saved for god works.

#3
AlexanderJ

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I'm looking for opinions about this issue, please.


What is your belief on repentance? Is it:



1. Simply to change one's mind

2. Turning from sin


If it's #2, is that considered a "work?"



And: In your opinion, is "Lordship Salvation" Biblical?



Thanks in advance!


Blessings :heart:


The word "Repentance" is the Greek "Meta-noia". The first part of the word "Meta" is a preposition which, according to Strong's, can denote (and I quote) "(Meta)used in composition, in substantially the same relations of participation or proximity, and transfer or sequence." The second part of the word, "Noia", is the Greek word for mind.

So, etymologically, the word "repentance" simply means a change of mind, a transfer from one mental state to another.

Proponents of Lordship salvation have propounded that repentance also entails turning from one's sins. I believe that this is an error. They are mistaking the meaning of repentance for what will naturally follow it. They are confusing the means with the ends. This confusion can cause much turmoil in the hearts of believers, because every time they sin they are wondering whether their repentance was genuine or not. Sanctification (when God brings a believer's life and practical walk closer to himself and farther away from Sin) is a gradual, ongoing process, which is culminated with our resurrection and glorification - but salvation is instantaneous. Those who hold to the position of lordship salvation confuse sanctification with salvation and vice versa.

#4
AlexanderJ

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Additionally, the doctrines of Lordship Salvation tend to shift the focus from salvation and sanctification from being primarily the works of God, to being primarily the works of man and only secondarily of God. It's all about Me - Memaking Christ Lord in my life, My repentance, My works.

Christ is Lord of every believer's life by position. This cannot be changed. When I believe, God makes me his son, and whether I am obeying him or not he is always my Father and my Lord.

#5
franciskelsey

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I could not address the question better than the prier couple. I would just add again, when we change our minds about Christ, to Him instead of against Him, which can only be done with the power of the Holy Spirit and our own mind or decision to follow, we do not want to live in sin any more. When we turn, or change our minds about Jesus, in doing so, if not right then, shortly after, we begain to see that we are full of sin and over time God helps us understand that we can do nothing constructive without Him as our hearts are always in rebellion against Him and what is right. It is a change of mind, a reconizing of, and a turning and deliverence of, the way and curse of sin. If one believes we can be saved and never believe we have to admit we have sin I am afraid truly they have not met the true Maker or have truly changed their minds about life, God, and their way of living. These things are all grouped together, though independantly at times, and can not be separated as having one without the other and truly live a fullfilling and blessed Christian life. Too many Christians today dwell in sin because they do not read the instruction manual, thus lack communication with and from God Himself.

#6
allofgrace

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Repentance to me is best described in this passage and is produced by the convicting power of the word of God and the Holy Spirit in the heart of the sinner to bring them to Jesus for salvation. This demonstrates true repentance and its result, 1 Thess 1:9-10 For they themselves declare concerning us what manner of entry we had to you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, 10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come. But in essence one cannot do good works until after they are saved.

And I do not know where others got their understanding of Lordship salvation but it is not believing that the sinner works their way into salvation. Lordship salvation as written by John MacArthur was that once a person gives their life to Jesus Christ by grace through faith is that the result will be that the person will do as the above passage says, they will, with a strong emphasis on will, turn from a life living in the flesh and begin to grow in the grace and knowledge and lifestyle that is Christlike. Though not perfectly but it will and should be as the scriptures say in Romans 8 and others places, God will be transforming believers into the image of His dear Son, Jesus Christ while here on earth. It is progressive and different progress is made, but those on the other side that John MacArthur was speaking against were and are teaching that one can accept Jesus as their Savior, but not as the Lord of their lives and even after making a profession of faith they can still live a life in the flesh and even deny that Jesus is their Savior and they would still be saved because they once accepted Him as their Savior. This was it in a condensed form, and to say that one can be saved and later deny Christ as their Savior and never produced the fruit of righteousness by the Holy Spirit in their lives from my viewpoint is never taught in scripture. Many scriptures are plain in this teaching, why call Me, Lord, Lord and do not the things I say, Luke 6:46 and Matt 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness! Good works are a result of salvation not the cause of salvation, Lordship salvation does not teach salvation by works but that good works will follow conversion. At least this is my understanding of what John MacArthur wrote and I have discussed this with several times with those who take the opposing view and they claim that Lordship of the believers life is expected but not mandatory for believers who only accept Him as Savior. Personally I don't know how anyone could come up with such an idea from reading the scriptures.

Edited by allofgrace, 06 December 2012 - 04:30 PM.


#7
shiloh357

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I'm looking for opinions about this issue, please.


What is your belief on repentance? Is it:



1. Simply to change one's mind

2. Turning from sin


If it's #2, is that considered a "work?"



And: In your opinion, is "Lordship Salvation" Biblical?



Thanks in advance!


Blessings :heart:


Repentance simply means to change your mind, to choose to go the other direction. It is a response to the Gospel. Turning from sin is what the Bible calls, the "fruit of repentance." The fruit of repentance is the demonstration of a changed life. Not a perfect life, but a changed life.

In my opinion, Lordship salvation is not a theologically sound term. Lordship has to do with spiritual growth, not salvation. The Bible is clear that when we submit to the Lordship of Jesus Christ, it means that we are submitting every area of our lives over to Him. You did not have to sumbit to Him in every area of your life in order to get saved. You simply had to put your faith in Christ and His finished work on the cross, His death, burial and resurrection. But once we are saved, one of the first things we should do is submit to Jesus as Lord. An intital first step of public declarative obedience to Jesus as Lord, is to be baptized.

I would say that a person who is unwilling to make Jesus Lord after they have been saved, should re-examine the authenticity of their profession of faith. Salvation should produce a new and sincere desire to serve Christ, to live as His disciple. Absent that, what evidence can one provide of an genuine salvation experience?

#8
gdemoss

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Great questions Tinky.

As has been declared previously, repentance is a change in mind. That said, we must consider that actions follow thoughts. We do not do that which we do mindlessly. Therefore a change in mind will change actions as well. For this cause we are told to prove ourselves to see if we are actually in the faith or not. We are told to examine that which we do to know whether or not Jesus Christ is in us or not.

Hbr 6:6 If they shall fall away , to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh , and put [him] to an open shame .

It seems that these repented of their previous repentance and would not again be renewed again unto repentance. Did these simply have a change of mind without any action. I think not. Repentance is much more involved that most preach and teach but we are in the end, it is supposed to be that way. The mystery of iniquity is almost complete.


Jhn 1:11-12 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:

What exactly did Jesus come to his own as that he was rejected?

Jhn 19:15 But they cried out, Away with [him], away with [him], crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar.

What exactly does it mean to receive Jesus as your King? According to the scripture this is required to become one of the sons of God. Why does the scripture say that the wrath of God abides upon the children of disobedience? Or why does it say that Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all those who obey him? Nobody gets to choose whether or not he is their Lord as he is Lord of Lords and King of Kings. We simply get to choose if we will obey him as such.

Different terms mean different things to different individuals. Lordship Salvation to one may imply a works based salvation while to another they merely see it as a living a life that acknowledges the truth that Jesus has been made both Lord and Savior. I repented of my sin because I understood that very truth. Cause and affect. The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom and departing from evil is understanding.

The basic problem is sin. The only solution is God. The sinner can do nothing in and of himself except serve as he was designed to do just that. God gives everything necessary to turn that service away from sin and toward God. The person is only able to choose whom he will serve. A servant must have a Lord or he is no servant at all. The simple question is who is your Lord? How can one tell who their Lord is? According to Paul it is to whom you yield your members servants to obey. Sin unto death or righteousness unto life.

It takes a lot of fancy foot work and great swelling words of vanity rooted in the imagination employed through human reasoning to take away the basic truth of the bible. Verses such as this one have to be explained away:

2Th 2:13 ¶ But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

All I know is that the bible declares that Jesus has been made both Lord and Savior. I believe that to be true and my works declare my faith to be authentic as I do not have a reprobate mind.

Above one mentioned that our hearts are always in rebellion against him. I wonder what one does with such verses as:


1Ti 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and [of] a good conscience, and [of] faith unfeigned:

2Ti 2:22 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, [see that ye] love one another with a pure heart fervently:

We are commanded to:

Jam 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse [your] hands, [ye] sinners; and purify [your] hearts, [ye] double minded.

I receive attacks from the enemy where they try to get me to give them place in my heart but I am told to resist the devil and he will flee from me. A house is only dirty when it isn't cleaned regularly.

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

I often have wondered why he didn't say 'if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Savior Jesus'....I think I know.

#9
livingintruth

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the greek word for repent is "metanoeo" which means to think differently or afterwards, i.e. reconsider. it is an about face, or basically to turn away 180 degrees,
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, Don't get discouraged though, cause we live in the Grace dispensation. Not the law anymore. Yes we need to get into His word, and mosty His word in us, however, we need to pray too.... It is hard for people to live according to the Word without revelation, and without His spirit. It is written quench not the spirit. I pray for revelation, so that I have a deep desire to change and live according to His word. It is amazing when God show's His children something that Hewants for them, and then He helps them to accomplish the task, or change, or maybe even a work. But unfortunately we are not saved by works. Lord bless!

#10
livingintruth

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i ment fortunately. lol :)

#11
allofgrace

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I had never heard of the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals but seeing as how they are mentioned I looked up their view and here is an answer to the question about Lordship salvation that I found: Is the Alliance for or against Lordship Salvation?


Posted Image I think I may confidently state that there is no one affiliated with the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals who takes a stand against the basic ideas of lordship salvation. That is, we firmly assert that one must have Jesus as Lord in order to have Him as Savior. The New Testament could not possibly be clearer on this matter -- see Luke 9:23-24, Ephesians 2:10, Romans 8:3-4, just for starters. We are saved by grace alone through faith alone apart from works. But we are saved to do good works, so that a professing believer who bears no fruit has no biblical grounds to hope for salvation. "We are saved by faith alone, but the faith that saves never is alone." Here is how we properly relate Paul's teaching on justification and James' teaching. Paul insists that works are joined to faith but not to justification. That is, to summarize Galatians, “Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for ‘The righteous shall live by faith’” (Gal. 3:11), and “In Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love” (Gal. 5:6). Faith in Christ alone justifies, but that faith works through love. Therefore, while Paul asserts that we are justified by a living faith alone, James denies that we are justified by a dead faith. Paul's affirmation and James' denial go hand in hand to present justification by faith alone, which faith always works.

Personally as I have stated before, I would whole heartily agree with what this answer states, for what that's worth. I only post it to maybe show what is being talked about on the subject of Lordship salvation from my viewpoint and others who might use this as a guide line. Because when I posted what I said in my other post I had never read this but reading it one can see my understanding walks hand in hand with this answer.

Edited by allofgrace, 07 December 2012 - 09:49 AM.


#12
Tinky

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I love the answers! So much food for thought! :thumbsup: :heart:

#13
HawkBlue27

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I think it means both, you change your mind about your sin, and Christ.

#14
enoob57

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I'm looking for opinions about this issue, please.


What is your belief on repentance? Is it:



1. Simply to change one's mind

2. Turning from sin


If it's #2, is that considered a "work?"



And: In your opinion, is "Lordship Salvation" Biblical?



Thanks in advance!


Blessings :heart:

Jas 4:13-17
13 Come now, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a city, spend a year there,
buy and sell, and make a profit"; 14 whereas you do not know what will happen tomorrow. For what is
your life? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time and then vanishes away. 15 Instead you ought
to say, "If the Lord wills, we shall live and do this or that." 16 But now you boast in your arrogance. All
such boasting is evil.
17 Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin.
NKJV

1 Co 6:19-20
19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from

God, and you are not your own? 20 For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and
in your spirit, which are God's.
NKJV

It is inherited from new birth... we understand His Word and we see it is the only way to remain in the light
as He is There... plus the rubber hitting the road
Jn 6:68-69
68 But Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also
we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
NKJV

Love, Steven

#15
JohnDB

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I'm looking for opinions about this issue, please.


What is your belief on repentance? Is it:



1. Simply to change one's mind

2. Turning from sin


If it's #2, is that considered a "work?"



And: In your opinion, is "Lordship Salvation" Biblical?



Thanks in advance!


Blessings :heart:



1 John 1:1 (KJV)
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

John 1:1 (KJV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.


1 John 1:2 (KJV)
2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

John 1:2 (KJV)
2 The same was in the beginning with God.


1 John 1:3 (KJV)
3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 1:1-2 (KJV)
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;


1 John 1:4 (KJV)
4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.

Ephesians 3:2-4 (KJV)
2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)


1 John 1:5 (KJV)
5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

John 1:4-5 (KJV)
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.


1 John 1:6 (KJV)
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

John 1:6-13 (KJV)
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


1 John 1:7 (KJV)

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

1 John 1:8 (KJV)
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Isaiah 64:6 (KJV)
6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.


Romans 3:23 (KJV)
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;


Romans 7:14-25 (KJV)
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.


1 John 1:9 (KJV)
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1 John 1:10 (KJV)
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

#16
JohnDB

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1 John 2:1-6 (KJV)
1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

#17
Intojoy

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Salvation is by grace alone thru faith alone in Christ alone plus nothing. Repentance only becomes a false addition to salvation if it is used outside of the context of saving faith. In the context of the gospel, repentance is a synonym for faith otherwise it is absolutely a work that God would be obligated to respond to. When God did His work of election (to salvation), He chose not on the basis of our individual faith but rather elected us purely through the out working of His Grace.

#18
He giveth more grace

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The most renown proponents of Lordship Salvation is Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron whom say that you must repent and make Jesus Lord as part of salvation

#19
gdemoss

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The most renown proponents of Lordship Salvation is Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron whom say that you must repent and make Jesus Lord as part of salvation


It is God who made Jesus Lord and Christ.

Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

We may simply confess this reality unto others.

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

A confession that shows itself true by our works.


2Ti 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with [him]: if we deny [him], he also will deny us:
2Ti 2:13 If we believe not, [yet] he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
Tts 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny [him], being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Is Jesus Lord? If not God is a liar. Does one have to acknowledge Jesus' Lordship to be saved? If not God is a liar. Let God be true and every man a liar. Jesus is Lord over all and he gives eternal life to all who obey him according to Heb 5:9. Deny him his lordship and he shall deny you. The only ones who have a problem with this are they who do not love the truth. Why would you not want Jesus as your Lord? Because you can't continue on as a liar, thief, cheat and a con? Because you can't be a drunkard, homosexual or any other thing that is contrary to the truth of God? Let it be known this day that Jesus is Lord over all and is the light of the world. Receive the light and walk in the light. Purify your heart before him.

#20
He giveth more grace

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The most renown proponents of Lordship Salvation is Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron whom say that you must repent and make Jesus Lord as part of salvation


It is God who made Jesus Lord and Christ.

Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

We may simply confess this reality unto others.

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

A confession that shows itself true by our works.


2Ti 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with [him]: if we deny [him], he also will deny us:
2Ti 2:13 If we believe not, [yet] he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
Tts 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny [him], being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Is Jesus Lord? If not God is a liar. Does one have to acknowledge Jesus' Lordship to be saved? If not God is a liar. Let God be true and every man a liar. Jesus is Lord over all and he gives eternal life to all who obey him according to Heb 5:9. Deny him his lordship and he shall deny you. The only ones who have a problem with this are they who do not love the truth. Why would you not want Jesus as your Lord? Because you can't continue on as a liar, thief, cheat and a con? Because you can't be a drunkard, homosexual or any other thing that is contrary to the truth of God? Let it be known this day that Jesus is Lord over all and is the light of the world. Receive the light and walk in the light. Purify your heart before him.

Of course Jesus is Lord and he has a name above all names. You missed what I was saying.




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