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Spiral Galaxies: (A Challenge to the Paradigm?)


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#1
Enoch2021

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I posted a portion of this topic on another Thread and all I got was Crickets, So......

 

 

According to Current Stellar "evolution" Theory:  Spiral Galaxies take only 2 to 3 turns before beginning to dissipate and lose their definition; therefore, any Galaxies beyond 10 to 20 Million "Light Years" should not reveal Spirals.

 

OK,  WHAT DO WE SEE?

 

We see Spirals everywhere including the Red Shift Desert (6-9 Billion "Light Years" away)....

 

 

RedShiftDesert_zpscc838eab.png

 

 

 

Also, Most Importantly......

 

 

spiralgalaxies_zps3ebfd2a5.jpg

 

 

The Farthest Galaxies had to release their Light Long Long Long before the Closer Galaxies

The Further Galaxies did not have as much time to Spiral (Rotate and Twist their Arms)

The Closer Galaxies should have the most Twist!!

Why don't they!!   In Fact, It looks like the EXACT Opposite!  Can Anyone Riddle me that?

 

 

And then, BX442 Discovery in the Summer of 2012.  Had Astronomers around the Globe dropping their Monocles in their Tea Cups......

 

 

BX442_zps227c361a.png?t=1393650219

 

 

BX442 is 10.7 BILLION LIGHT YEARS AWAY!! :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

 

 

This is Roughly 3 Billion Years after the "supposed "Big Bang"  :mgdetective:

 

 

"The fact that this galaxy exists is astounding," said David Law, lead author of the study and Dunlap Institute postdoctoral fellow at the University of Toronto's Dunlap Institute for Astronomy & Astrophysics. "Current wisdom holds that such 'grand-design' spiral galaxies simply didn't exist at such an early time in the history of the universe." A 'grand design' galaxy has prominent, well-formed spiral arms."

http://www.dailygala...e-universe.html

 

 

Can you say:  "ahhh, Houston, we've got a Problem!!"

 

 

This is Tantamount to waking up tomorrow morning and discovering every Human on the Planet is between 20-30 years old!!  Which then leads to the obvious....

 

 

Where are all the Children?  and   Where are all the GrandParents?

 

 

 

Thanks, Have a Blessed Day.

 

 

 

 



#2
gray wolf

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We would need to update our hypotheses then, I should think!



#3
EnochBethany

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I posted a portion of this topic on another Thread and all I got was Crickets, So......

 

 

According to Current Stellar "evolution" Theory:  Spiral Galaxies take only 2 to 3 turns before beginning to dissipate and lose their definition; therefore, any Galaxies beyond 10 to 20 Million "Light Years" should not reveal Spirals.

 

OK,  WHAT DO WE SEE?

 

We see Spirals everywhere including the Red Shift Desert (6-9 Billion "Light Years" away)....

 

 

RedShiftDesert_zpscc838eab.png

 

 

 

Also, Most Importantly......

 

 

spiralgalaxies_zps3ebfd2a5.jpg

 

 

The Farthest Galaxies had to release their Light Long Long Long before the Closer Galaxies

The Further Galaxies did not have as much time to Spiral (Rotate and Twist their Arms)

The Closer Galaxies should have the most Twist!!

Why don't they!!   In Fact, It looks like the EXACT Opposite!  Can Anyone Riddle me that?

 

 

And then, BX442 Discovery in the Summer of 2012.  Had Astronomers around the Globe dropping their Monocles in their Tea Cups......

 

 

BX442_zps227c361a.png?t=1393650219

 

 

BX442 is 10.7 BILLION LIGHT YEARS AWAY!! :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

 

 

This is Roughly 3 Billion Years after the "supposed "Big Bang"  :mgdetective:

 

 

"The fact that this galaxy exists is astounding," said David Law, lead author of the study and Dunlap Institute postdoctoral fellow at the University of Toronto's Dunlap Institute for Astronomy & Astrophysics. "Current wisdom holds that such 'grand-design' spiral galaxies simply didn't exist at such an early time in the history of the universe." A 'grand design' galaxy has prominent, well-formed spiral arms."

http://www.dailygala...e-universe.html

 

 

Can you say:  "ahhh, Houston, we've got a Problem!!"

 

 

This is Tantamount to waking up tomorrow morning and discovering every Human on the Planet is between 20-30 years old!!  Which then leads to the obvious....

 

 

Where are all the Children?  and   Where are all the GrandParents?

 

 

 

Thanks, Have a Blessed Day.

Well, 2021, I perceive that you are much more informed than I on such subject.

I have long thought that the interp of red-shift is presumptuous, just one possible explanation.  I find it edifying to gaze at God's glory (the heavens declare the glory of God) -- the most incredible & exquisite sights are in the sky. 

 

"I got crickets"? You got the best of me on that one; never heard it before.

 

Expression "faith vs science" is bogus.  For me proper object faith is the conviction that something is so based on the sufficiency of the evidence or on the obviousness of the self-evident.  Science is human knowledge, usually in the sense of human knowledge about the physical world.  Proper subjective faith is trusting the Lord Jesus primarily, then secondarily having a practical confidence about probable safety and behavior, as opposed to paranoia.  While the dictionary recognizes one meaning of faith now as belief without evidence, yet pistis the Greek term in the NT, does not have that meaning at all.

 

Thanks for a post I found entertaining.



#4
EnochBethany

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We would need to update our hypotheses then, I should think!

update your hypotheses & you lowpotheses.



#5
other one

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watch where your standing before you adjust your lowpotheses.  Never do it while you are walking or you might fall and break your arm...   VoE



#6
FresnoJoe

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We would need to update our hypotheses then, I should think!

 

:thumbsup:

 

Up

 

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for,

the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good report.

Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God,

so that things which are seen were not made

of things which do appear. Hebrews 11:1-3

 

Date

 

He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: 

also he hath set the world in their heart, 

so that no man can find out the work 

that God maketh from the 

beginning to the end. Ecclesiastes 3:11

 

Now Ain't God

 

Then Job answered and said,
I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God?
If he will contend with him, he cannot answer him one of a thousand.
He is wise in heart, and mighty in strength: who hath hardened himself against him, and hath prospered?
Job 9:1-4

 

Grand

 

Which removeth the mountains, and they know not: which overturneth them in his anger.
Which shaketh the earth out of her place, and the pillars thereof tremble.
 Which commandeth the sun, and it riseth not; and sealeth up the stars.
Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea.
Which maketh Arcturus, Orion, and Pleiades, and the chambers of the south.
Which doeth great things past finding out; yea, and wonders without number.
Job 9:5-10

 

:)



#7
Enoch2021

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Well, 2021, I perceive that you are much more informed than I on such subject.

I have long thought that the interp of red-shift is presumptuous, just one possible explanation.  I find it edifying to gaze at God's glory (the heavens declare the glory of God) -- the most incredible & exquisite sights are in the sky. 

 

"I got crickets"? You got the best of me on that one; never heard it before.

 

Expression "faith vs science" is bogus.  For me proper object faith is the conviction that something is so based on the sufficiency of the evidence or on the obviousness of the self-evident.  Science is human knowledge, usually in the sense of human knowledge about the physical world.  Proper subjective faith is trusting the Lord Jesus primarily, then secondarily having a practical confidence about probable safety and behavior, as opposed to paranoia.  While the dictionary recognizes one meaning of faith now as belief without evidence, yet pistis the Greek term in the NT, does not have that meaning at all.

 

Thanks for a post I found entertaining.

 

 

============================================================

 

"I got crickets"? You got the best of me on that one; never heard it before.

 

Have your heard of:  Be kind to Dumb Animal Week?  Faster than a Duck on a June Bug?  So skinny you could Wind Surf on a Dorito?

 

I got thousands of them (most can't be written down or spoken  :o ).... Fringe Benefits and Courtesy of the US Military ;)
 

 

 

Thanks for a post I found entertaining.

 

Thank You.  Hopefully it was Illuminating.



#8
EnochBethany

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Well, 2021, I perceive that you are much more informed than I on such subject.

I have long thought that the interp of red-shift is presumptuous, just one possible explanation.  I find it edifying to gaze at God's glory (the heavens declare the glory of God) -- the most incredible & exquisite sights are in the sky. 

 

"I got crickets"? You got the best of me on that one; never heard it before.

 

Expression "faith vs science" is bogus.  For me proper object faith is the conviction that something is so based on the sufficiency of the evidence or on the obviousness of the self-evident.  Science is human knowledge, usually in the sense of human knowledge about the physical world.  Proper subjective faith is trusting the Lord Jesus primarily, then secondarily having a practical confidence about probable safety and behavior, as opposed to paranoia.  While the dictionary recognizes one meaning of faith now as belief without evidence, yet pistis the Greek term in the NT, does not have that meaning at all.

 

Thanks for a post I found entertaining.

 

 

============================================================

 

"I got crickets"? You got the best of me on that one; never heard it before.

 

Have your heard of:  Be kind to Dumb Animal Week?  Faster than a Duck on a June Bug?  So skinny you could Wind Surf on a Dorito?

 

I got thousands of them (most can't be written down or spoken  :o ).... Fringe Benefits and Courtesy of the US Military ;)
 

 

 

Thanks for a post I found entertaining.

 

Thank You.  Hopefully it was Illuminating.

 

Perhaps you mean, "I've got rickets."



#9
Enoch2021

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We would need to update our hypotheses then, I should think!

 

 

I have one....

 

They were All Made @ the Same Time and the "Light" thereof reached the Earth @ the SAME TIME before HE began "STRETCHING THE HEAVENS".

 

Can it be tested......NO

 

But it sure is compelling :thumbsup: and parts (Literal Ones) are supported by THE WORD.



#10
gray wolf

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I don't know. How would we be seeing stellar events that happened long ago? Wouldn't the light be more uniform?

#11
Enoch2021

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I don't know. How would we be seeing stellar events that happened long ago? Wouldn't the light be more uniform?

 

==============================================================

 

 

I don't know. How would we be seeing stellar events that happened long ago?

 

That "Long Ago" is The Presumption I just put the Fork into in the OP.

 

 

Wouldn't the light be more uniform?

 

Not following?



#12
gray wolf

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I mean, if the light were created en route, wouldn't we expect to see fewer events, such as Supernova 1987A? Just events over the past few thousand years from closer objects?

#13
Enoch2021

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I mean, if the light were created en route, wouldn't we expect to see fewer events, such as Supernova 1987A? Just events over the past few thousand years from closer objects?

 

 

What do you mean by "Created en route"?

 

 

wouldn't we expect to see fewer events, such as Supernova 1987A?

 

I don't know, I just created the "Theory" the other day.....I haven't worked the details out yet  LOL

 

Also, recently.... I've been reading "Calculated" vs "Observed" Time......which is fascinating but I haven't got my mind wrapped around it yet.

 

If you ever seen the episode of Archy Bunker.... where Edith was talking to Archy (from the Kitchen) and while she was talking he was pretending to construct a noose....then wrapped it around his Neck and metaphorically hung himself??  That's the point where I'm @ with this  :24:



#14
gray wolf

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If God made the stars appear at once, their light would have to have been created already in transit, otherwise nothing would have appeared in the sky other than the solar system for the first few years at least, right?
That scene was hilarious!

#15
EnochBethany

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If God made the stars appear at once, their light would have to have been created already in transit, otherwise nothing would have appeared in the sky other than the solar system for the first few years at least, right?

"If God made the stars appear at once, their light would have to have been created already in transit, otherwise nothing would have appeared in the sky other than the solar system for the first few years at least, right?"

 

Wrong.  Along with the stars, their beams could have also been created at once.  Have you ever observed a start that lacked a beam?



#16
gray wolf

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Isn't that saying the same thing???

#17
Enoch2021

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If God made the stars appear at once, their light would have to have been created already in transit, otherwise nothing would have appeared in the sky other than the solar system for the first few years at least, right?

 

=============================================================

 

 

If God made the stars appear at once, their light would have to have been created already in transit

 

Why?  Could the "stars" have been created closer before the "Stretching of The Heaven's"?

 

Also, and this among other things (TIME, for Example), The Properties of SPACE (it's just not "EMPTY") and effects EVERYTHING....

 

1. Zero Point Energy

2. Permittivity

3. Permeability

4. Intrinsic Impedance

 

Any change in these Characters will directly effect the "Speed of Light"

 

Quantized Red Shifts speak to some of these observations.  SEE: William Tiftt

 

TIME and it's Properties Impact all of This Massively.

 

There are so many variables that are KNOWN...what about the ones that Aren't ???

 

Light itself is a very weird creature and not very much is known.

 

IMHO, it's something that will never be grasped by us mere Humans....it may be time to Clean the Bathroom :24:



#18
EnochBethany

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Isn't that saying the same thing???

No, to say stars were created with light in transit is not the same as to say the stars were created with the beams extending to the earth.  I mean "in transit" sounds like when created, the beams were moving towards the earth, but had not yet got there.

 

But perhaps by "in transit" you meant reaching to the destination



#19
Sheniy

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I posted a portion of this topic on another Thread and all I got was Crickets, So......
 
 (snip)


Hi. :)

First of all, I want to say THANK YOU! This post was so neat and clear, and I didn't feel like I was being whacked over the head with a textbook or the bible. :D Also, I didn't feel overwhelmed with the amount of data you were giving me. Thanks for keeping it short and focused on one specific thing. ;)

Okay, so even though this is specifically about spiral galaxies, I'm seeing three different points here. (please bear with me)

1st point: Really distant spiral galaxies should have less twist because they're too old.

2nd point: The light we see from the really distant spiral galaxies is from when they were not old enough to form spirals.

3rd point: The universe declares the Glory of God. (I happen to agree with this one)

It could be my sleep-deprived brain (sorry...still haven't caught up yet...), but it seems like point 2 counters point 1 by saying that the light we see from the oldest galaxies is from their beginning...when they were young...

As for the third point, I'm sure you have one, but...other than "the universe was made by God", I don't know what it is, and I don't want to assume incorrectly. ^_^

I have more questions and opinions on this (of course, lol), but we'll just start with that.



#20
EnochBethany

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If God made the stars appear at once, their light would have to have been created already in transit, otherwise nothing would have appeared in the sky other than the solar system for the first few years at least, right?

 

=============================================================

 

 

If God made the stars appear at once, their light would have to have been created already in transit

 

Why?  Could the "stars" have been created closer before the "Stretching of The Heaven's"?

 

Also, and this among other things (TIME, for Example), The Properties of SPACE (it's just not "EMPTY") and effects EVERYTHING....

 

1. Zero Point Energy

2. Permittivity

3. Permeability

4. Intrinsic Impedance

 

Any change in these Characters will directly effect the "Speed of Light"

 

Quantized Red Shifts speak to some of these observations.  SEE: William Tiftt

 

TIME and it's Properties Impact all of This Massively.

 

There are so many variables that are KNOWN...what about the ones that Aren't ???

 

Light itself is a very weird creature and not very much is known.

 

IMHO, it's something that will never be grasped by us mere Humans....it may be time to Clean the Bathroom :24:

 

"Light itself is a very weird creature and not very much is known."

 

Intelligent statement.  Realizing how little we know of creation is a necessary realization in order to have real understanding.  It reminds me of the end of Job, where instead of giving a direct explanation to Job, YHWH tells Job how little Job knows.

 

"Where where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?"

 

We were not there & had no way of making observations.  But that doesn't stop man from speculating.  The problem comes especially when one forgets he is speculating & starts dogmatizing like he was there.






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