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Can a Christian swayed so far in losing the Holy Spirit ?

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I don't believe a demon could live in a holy temple. I believe that christians could be under the influence of demons, but not posessed by them. I am filled with the Holy spirit, there is no room for a demon spirit.

Judas might disagree with that

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I don't believe a demon could live in a holy temple. I believe that christians could be under the influence of demons, but not posessed by them. I am filled with the Holy spirit, there is no room for a demon spirit.

Judas might disagree with that

Judas was turned over to Satan.

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I don't believe a demon could live in a holy temple. I believe that christians could be under the influence of demons, but not posessed by them. I am filled with the Holy spirit, there is no room for a demon spirit.

Judas might disagree with that

Judas was turned over to Satan.

The Bible gives no indication whatsoever that Judas ever had salvation.

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It amazes me sometimes that some Christians believe that after God saves someone, then it's up to them to keep themselves saved.

I want to just scream: "IT'S NOT ABOUT YOU!!!"

God the Father draws a person to Jesus, the Holy Spirit convicts the person of their sin and need for Christ, and Jesus saves the person via His sacrifice on the cross.

After a person is saved, they remain saved through the power of God because salvation is ENTIRELY a GIFT from God to fallen mankind.

God is NOT going to share ANY of the glory for your salvation with YOU!

So STOP trying to TAKE what ONLY belongs to GOD!!!

Okay, my rant is over. :foot-stomp:

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I don't believe a demon could live in a holy temple. I believe that christians could be under the influence of demons, but not posessed by them. I am filled with the Holy spirit, there is no room for a demon spirit.

Judas might disagree with that

Judas was turned over to Satan

yes, and the scripture says "satan entered Judas".........judas was numbered among the 12, he along with the 11 other disciples were empowered by the Holy Spirit to drive out demons, heal the sick miraculously, and perform many wonders, he was not the least of the disciples as he was chosen to hold onto the groups finances, we know from scripture that unbelievers can not operate in the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

If a Christian opens doors to his house, and makes room for evil spirits to dwell, you can grieve the Holy Spirit to a point where He will leave you, just as any Christian can fall into sin, and sear their conscience like a hot iron, finding themselves living unrepentantly.in a life of sin

as for Judas, yes it was God's forknowledge of what Judas would do

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It amazes me sometimes that some Christians believe that after God saves someone, then it's up to them to keep themselves saved.

I want to just scream: "IT'S NOT ABOUT YOU!!!"

God the Father draws a person to Jesus, the Holy Spirit convicts the person of their sin and need for Christ, and Jesus saves the person via His sacrifice on the cross.

After a person is saved, they remain saved through the power of God because salvation is ENTIRELY a GIFT from God to fallen mankind.

God is NOT going to share ANY of the glory for your salvation with YOU!

So STOP trying to TAKE what ONLY belongs to GOD!!!

Okay, my rant is over. :foot-stomp:

Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called 'Today', lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin." Hebrews 3:12-13

"Therefore we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, lest we drift away. For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward, how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? ..." Hebrews 2:1-3

"Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. Therefore, let him who thinks he stands, take heed lest he fall." I Corinthians 10:11-12

All of these warnings would be meaningless if Christians could not fall away. Therefore, the very existence of these warnings proves that Christians can fall from grace. But, this point is made even clearer when we investigate examples of Christians who struggled against falling away, and some who actually did.

then you Have the very final warnings given by Jesus, in Revelations..............I guess Jesus didn't get the memo that you couldn't be deceived and led away into sin that leads to death

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I am unsure why Christians are sometimes fallen; however, we can't see inside a soul like God can. We also do not know our destiny. I would be careful about judging if someone is saved or not simply by looking at his/her current state. If I might also humbly add some references from the Bible: the parable of the virgins who let their oil run out and were left in outer darkness (they once had oil,did they not?), the parable of the sower and the seeds (Satan was able to choke off those who did show growth at one time), the time when Jesus killed the fig tree because it didn't produce fruit (This is a real warning to Christians), and the fact that Jesus went around casting out demons and evil spirits (He wouldn't do that for someone who was destined to go to Hell,would he?) Overall, I believe this lady needs deliverance through whatever means: prayer and fasting, laying on of hands, removal of satanic objects, cleansing of her home, etc. This stuff is real. Jesus said it is.

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.... We also do not know our destiny.....

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

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.... We also do not know our destiny.....

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

Yes, this is a promise from God, but would the passage's meaning change at all if the word "should" were replaced with "would"? Also, I would welcome, with humility, your opinion on this quote in light of the parables and fig tree also in the Bible. I do believe that we don't know our destiny, only God does. We must keep our lamps full, not fall asleep, and produce fruit. Personal question: Have you ever seen someone get saved and be very enthusiastic just to go back to old beliefs and ways within a year or two? I have and this reminded me of the parable of the seed and the sower. However, Satan is said to be the one who plants the weeds. The lady first described in the original post seems to be among the thorns and weeds, or this could simply be the work of oppressive spirits. As Christians, we are called to act on her behalf. Doing nothing would be unchristian. We don't know if like in Timothy, "he was never of us" or if she is just being controlled by a power other than Christ. Obviously, this power is affecting the person who posted this too. Overall, she may not have been truly saved, may have been but is under oppression, or is not producing fruit and in danger of being cut off. I do not mean to make others doubt their faith, which is a danger when speaking of these parables. However, mature Christians should be aware that God saves us to do His will. We do have responsibilities. I've often wondered who I will be surprised to both see and not see in Glory. Those who rest alone on your verse here may not have the full picture of God's grace and may not respond to His warnings. Thanks, Joe, for a lively debate.

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The Fellowship Of Believers

Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest? For all those things hath mine hand made, and those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word. Isaiah 66:1-2

Rejoice Together

And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God. Luke 4:4

And Eat

Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts. Jeremiah 15:16

And It Is Good

Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!

It is like the precious ointment upon the head, that ran down upon the beard, even Aaron's beard: that went down to the skirts of his garments;

As the dew of Hermon, and as the dew that descended upon the mountains of Zion:

for there the LORD commanded the blessing, even life for evermore. Psalms 133

~

.... Those who rest alone on your verse here may not have the full picture of God's grace and may not respond to His warnings. Thanks, Joe, for a lively debate....

:thumbsup:

Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend. Proverbs 27:17

~

There

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. John 6:47

Is No Doubt

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14:6

That Jesus Is Salvation

Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. Acts 4:12

And That Our Works Will Just Not Do

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Romans 3:23-28

So Beloved I Leave It To You

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:8-10

Is This The Gospel

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

Or Will Another

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. Hebrew 6:4-6

Do?

Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. Hebrew 3:12

Love, Your Brother Joe

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Much of the discussion here assumes that the condition of a born again Christian is similar to the Hollywood stereotype of a possessed madman, without the drooling mouth, foul language, and special effects.  There is much that seems to be misunderstood.

 

A Christian is not merely possessed of the Holy Spirit as one might be possessed of a demon.  He or she is one with it - merged, melted together and formed anew.   In addition, being filled with a spirit - any spirit - isn't the same as the second birth either.  There is a special spiritual meaning behind the second birth.  It's more, much more than a simple belief system or even a spiritual possession (manipulation of the body by a supernatural entity).

 

John 3:1-6 is the story of the visit of Nicodemus' evening visit with Jesus.  As you recall, after a tentative statement of faith, Nicodemus hears Jesus hit him dead center in his unasked question.  First Jesus tells him that nobody can see the Kingdom of God without the second birth and then Jesus tells him what it is.  The second birth is perhaps the greatest miracle in the pages of the Bible and one that is least understood today.

 

"Therefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things are passed away; behold, new things have come."

- 2 Corinthians 5:17

 

The meaning of Jesus' answer to Nicodemus is mirrored in the passage from Corinthians and tells us that the Holy Spirit is actually joined with the human spirit to create an entirely new spirit.   In the physical body the sperm joins with the egg to create a new creature.  The new person carries the qualities of both parents, but is a unique individual at the same time.   In the same way the born again human spirit carries the qualities of its parent human spirit and its parent Holy Spirit and is created a new spirit being.   This new spiritual being carries the qualities of both spiritual parents, the human and the Holy, and is thus said to be born again.

 

"And no one pours new wine into old wineskins. Otherwise, the wine will burst the skins, and both the wine and the wineskins will be ruined. No, they pour new wine into new wineskins."

- Mark 2:22

 

The corruption of the human soul unto evil is so pronounced as to be irreversible.   The human cannot be saved at all.  Period.   In order to redeem the person, a radical change is necessary.  It is so radical that the first step God must take is to avenge His divine justice by shedding Christ's blood upon the cross.  The payment for sin must be permanent because the second birth is permanent.

 

Being cleansed of sin, the human spirit can then be joined to the Holy Spirit to create a new spiritual entity.   This is the meaning of Mark 2:22.   The entire human spirit must be remade - reborn as the scriptures say.   The scripture even suggests that the process of knowing God might actually destroy the human spirit if it were not first remade/reborn.

 

The flesh remains the same after the second birth except in instances where healings are performed.   The mind is altered in time by the gentle presence and prodding of the new spiritual being that resides with it and becomes like that which influences it daily - the mind of Christ.  One cannot walk with God and be unaffected.   This is also the meaning of the guarantee of eternal life, since that life has already begun in the nature of the second birth.

 

Which brings us to two questions often asked; can one lose one's salvation and can one's flesh be manipulated/possessed of evil? 

 

"Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin: but yield yourselves to God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God."

Romans 6:13

 

Not only is it possible for one's members to be manipulated or possessed by the enemy, Christians are warned not to do so -  it is forbidden.

What happens if we do?   There remains the possibility of damage to the mind and body by the unclean entity and there remains the possibility of chastisement or punishment by God if this habit persists.   Scripture goes so far as to suggest that God might even shorten one's life if necessary.

 

Can a man be unborn again?   That's the real question isn't it?  Can one lose one's faith?  Yes.  Can one exit the church?  Yes.  

 

Faith in religious terms is a mental conviction, not a spiritual reality.   I've known people who've been born again and who acted like the devil.   It is not my place to judge such a person, but I will certainly avoid them - as we are told to do in scripture.  Faith in spiritual terms is something else altogether - it is the substance of deep reality and cannot change.  Can one exit the church?  In these times when so many have been betrayed by self-styled leaders, the question seems to be not whether one should exit the church, but when.

 

Finally filling is the action whereby a spirit assumes control over a human body.  This control can be partial (where the human is aware of being manipulated), or total (where the human has no memory of the episode).   On one occasion while swimming in the surf in San Juan I nearly drowned.  I was being carried out to sea by a rip tide when the Holy Spirit filled me and caused my body to swim safely to shore.   I did not have the strength to do so and the experience was one of partial awareness.  My body was manipulated and my mind simply observed.  On the other hand, I have actually witnessed a person become totally occupied by an evil spirit and who did not remember the episode at all after the fact.   When studying the filling of the Holy Spirit (or any spirit), one must remember that such occupancy is both temporary and physical.  The purpose of filling by a spirit is to manipulate or operate the body.  The body is thus owned by or possessed by a different spirit than the one it naturally and normally is operated by.

 

In Summation:

The second birth creates an entirely new spiritual entity.  It is a new creature in Christ.  The spiritual entity cannot be unmade.  There is nothing in the Bible to suggest such a thing is possible.   There is, however, a plethora of suggestions that punishment and early death may result from pet sin in the life of such a person.

 

Filling of a body by a spirit has the purpose of temporarily manipulating the body for some purpose.   If the Holy Spirit, then the purpose is for the greater good of the person and/or the church.  If an unclean spirit, then the body is abused in some unhealthy fashion.   I've heard the experience described as being so vulgar and draining that the afflicted person wants to take a bath or shower and a nap to rid themselves of the nasty sensation.   This is why Jesus usually told people to feed a person freed of an unclean spirit.*   On the other hand, the Holy Spirit leaves one feeling clean and invigorated.  

 

Power comes from the Holy Spirit to the body and spirit.  Power goes to an unclean spirit from the body.  An unclean spirit is a spiritual parasite and one that can indeed afflict a Christian.

 

Let the wise man understand these words and be enriched by them.

 

and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

(*) Hollywood assumes the opposite.  As for example in the movie GHOST when Patrick Swayze manipulates a human body.  He, the ghost, is weakened.  The reality is the exact opposite.  The human is weakened because the unclean spirit is sucking energy from the body.   In another example, in the 1920's Edgar Cayce, called the sleeping prophet, allowed his body to be occupied so many times by unclean spirits that the experience actually weakened his body into death. 

Edited by rjp34652
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When you are born again, you receive the Holy Spirit and can never lose the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is given as a gift when a person beleives in Jesus Christ. God does not take back that gift.

 

John 7:38-39

 

38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

 

Romans 11:29

For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

 

Ephesians 11:30

And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

 

While a saved person cannot lose the Holy Spirit, they could certainly grieve the Holy Spirit or quench the Holy Spirit in them.

 

1 Thessalonians 5:19

Quench not the Spirit.

 

In fact, we are encouraged to be filled with the Holy Spirit.

 

Ephesians 5:17-20

 

17 Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.

18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;

Edited by MarkNigro
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Posted (edited) · Report post

1 Timothy 4:1  The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.

Edited by WalkTheWay
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There is this lady in my friend's work place that claimed to be a Christian, being baptized many years ago but seldom goes to church anymore. Just given her the benefit of the doubt that she once shown fruits of the spirit in the past, and now turned aggressive, hostile, controlling, jealousy, insecurity, abusiveness and harassing toward her co-workers for the purpose to discredit and mentally destroy them to serve her own selfish ends.

These evil behaviors no doubt are manifestation of the foul spirits inside this person. One of the victims happens to be my close friend who is a devoted Christian who is now in agony and dismay. It makes more sense since any true Christians in hostile territory would be assaulted by the enemies. Anyway,

Back to the topic, and based from these facts, what do you make of it? Most would probably say she never was a faithful servant to begin with. Think outside the box for a second, could one actually lose the Holy Spirit when the rebellious nature of that person goes beyond a certain threshold ?

 

********

I doubt that you are interested in any answer to the primary question in this thread.

What you seem to really want is a suggestion as to how you may help your friend and what advice you may give her.

 

The simple answer to the lead question is NO.   A born again person cannot be 'unborn again' any more than a child can reenter their mother's womb and have the fertilizing sperm removed from the egg.   The second birth is a fusion of the Holy Spirit and the human spirit resulting in an entirely new spiritual entity.  Not for nothing does the NT say over and over again that we are 'new creatures in Christ'.  Do you think those scripture lines are just platitudes and empty phrases?  If they mean anything at all they MEAN that those who are born again ARE NEW CREATURES.  Such a creature cannot be unborn again any more than an adult can be stripped of their DNA.   It might make for an interesting Science Fiction story, but that's all it is - fantasy.

 

With regard to misbehavior of a person who is truly born again, God must be trusted.  He is, after all, able to pluck His own geese is He not?

 

Apart from giving your friend moral support and prayer time, what happens in her office isn't really your business is it?   America is now a breeding ground for lots of little office NAZIs, and neighborhood NAZIs, and bigots of every flavor who believe its their mission in life to make everybody else's life miserable.  Land of the free and home of the brave?  Not any more, dear reader.  We are all proud of the fascist police state we've created.  May God have mercy upon us.

 

The best advice for your friend is to leave her work place immediately.   It is better to live in peace on a crust of bread than to have a well paying job and be treated like a dog.

 

Christ did not die so that we could tolerate slavery.

 

If it was good enough for Moses and Jesus and Abraham Lincoln it ought to be good enough for us.

 

and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft....

Edited by rjp34652
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There is this lady in my friend's work place that claimed to be a Christian, being baptized many years ago but seldom goes to church anymore. Just given her the benefit of the doubt that she once shown fruits of the spirit in the past, and now turned aggressive, hostile, controlling, jealousy, insecurity, abusiveness and harassing toward her co-workers for the purpose to discredit and mentally destroy them to serve her own selfish ends.

These evil behaviors no doubt are manifestation of the foul spirits inside this person. One of the victims happens to be my close friend who is a devoted Christian who is now in agony and dismay. It makes more sense since any true Christians in hostile territory would be assaulted by the enemies. Anyway,

Back to the topic, and based from these facts, what do you make of it? Most would probably say she never was a faithful servant to begin with. Think outside the box for a second, could one actually lose the Holy Spirit when the rebellious nature of that person goes beyond a certain threshold ?

That which is born of God will endure to the end... 1 Jn 2:19

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

NKJV

Love, Steven

 

 

Amen

 

God is omniscient.

He doesn't do something just to take it back later.

If she is one of His He will bring her back, one way or another.

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Their was a thread a while back about a Christian being put on the shelf.Anyone remember this?Apparently this is from a Christian who has consistently not followed Christ for quite some time.This was an article that Dr.Charles Stanley did.

No the Holy Spirit will never leave the true believer.Although it is possible for our sin to "quence the Holy Spirit" or "grieve the Holy Spirit".Sin has its conseqences with God.Unconfessed sin in our lives can hinder our fellowship with Him and quence quence the Holy Spirit's works in our lives.That is why it is important to confess our sins to God.Even thought the Holy Spirit will not leave the believer the benefits of the joy of the Holy Spirit can depart from us.

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