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MISCONCEPTION: The Seven Year Tribulation

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MISCONCEPTION: The Seven Year Tribulation

The seven year tribulation is very possibly the greatest misconception of End-time Bible prophecy. Many Bible teachers, including most of our well known scholars today, assume that the seven year tribulation is another term for Daniel’s 70th week. This assumption has brought much confusion to our understanding of how the end-times will play out at the conclusion of this current age, known as the age of grace. The apostle Paul warned us that the time would come when myths and/or fables would be taught instead of the truth of God’s word, and I believe we have been living in those days for quite some time now.

2 Timothy 4:3-4

For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

What started out as a simple assumption has become a great misconception that has distorted the perception of countless believers, making it very difficult to have a solid understanding of the end-times. It has even muddied the water of all rapture theories (pre-, mid- and post-tribulation rapture), which were designed to more easily classify the various rapture views or positions held by individual scholars. Have you ever tried looking for something in muddy water? Unless the object you’re seeking is very close to the surface, you can forget about seeing whatever you’re looking for. Likewise, so goes our vision of the end-times when we start jumping to conclusions by adding our assumptions, misconceptions and pre-conceived beliefs to the truth we are given in God’s word. This is not a good mix.

It’s true that Daniel’s 70th week will last seven years (Dan. 9:24-27). Seventy (70) weeks of years were determined for the people of Israel (70×7=490 years), beginning from the command to rebuild Jerusalem, which was destroyed by the Babylonians, until the anointing of the Most Holy (Christ). However, Christ was cut off (crucified) after only 69 weeks (483 yrs), which left the 70th week or final seven years remaining to be fulfilled before He returns. These are the final seven years the world will witness just before the second coming of Christ, when the King of kings and Lord of lords returns with His saints to rule and reign on the earth for 1000 years, which is commonly known as the millennial Reign of Christ.

Now, since we know that Christ was, in fact, cut off after 69 weeks (483 yrs) according to Scripture, we also know that Daniel’s 70th week (final 7 yrs) still remains and has not yet been fulfilled. These final seven years must be fulfilled according to Scripture, however, the same can not be said of the so-called seven year tribulation. Although these two terms are commonly used interchangeably, they are not and can not be the same thing. Seven years remain unfulfilled, but there is no mention of a seven year tribulation anywhere in God’s word. There is simply no such thing. Now let me tell you why I believe this, then I’ll provide the Scripture to support my claim.

There are two glaring contrasts here. The days of tribulation actually begin in the middle of Daniel’s 70th week (7 years), after the abomination of desolation, according to Scripture and most scholars agree. But not only does the tribulation begin at the mid-point of the final seven years, but Scripture also tells us that the days of tribulation are cut short for the sake of the elect. Daniel’s 70th week (7 yrs), on the other hand, can not be cut short at all, unless, of course, the prophet Daniel gave us a false prophecy, which is not even remotely possible. We know that Daniel could not have been a false prophet, because Christ, Himself, points back to Daniel’s prophecy in Matthew 24 and Mark 13.

Daniel 9:24-26Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place. [25] So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress. [26] Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.

In the passage above we see (7) sevens [49 yrs.], then another (62) sevens [434 yrs.], which equal 69 weeks or 483 years and then Christ was cut off, which leaves the final seven years or Daniel’s 70th week remaining (see passage below). Also notice the abomination of desolation begins at the mid-point or middle of the final seven years.

Daniel 9:27

He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.

Daniel 11:35

And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

Here’s more about the abomination of desolation in the passages below.

Daniel 11:31

And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

Daniel 11:36

And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

Now lets take a look at the abomination of desolation, along with the time remaining to the end:

Daniel 12:11-12

And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.

Now here’s the kicker. From the passage of Scripture above, we can understand that Daniel’s 70th week will not be shortened at all. From the abomination of desolation in the middle of the seven years, we see not only the alloted 1260 days, 42 months and/or 3 1/2 years, but we also see an extension of 30 days (1290), with another addition of 45 days (1335) as well. Scripture is not clear as to what will happen during these two extensions, but it should be as plain as day that the days of Daniel’s 70th week will not and can not be shortened at all, and that the end must come at the time appointed. However, the same can not be said of the tribulation, which proves that the two are as different as night and day. Now let’s take a look at what the Bible has to say about the tribulation.

Matthew 24:14-22

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. [15] When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) [16] Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: [17] Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: [18] Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. [19] And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! [20] But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

[21] For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

[22] And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.

In the passage above, Christ, Himself, is telling us that the tribulation will begin after the abomination of desolation occurs, at the mid-point of Daniel’s 70th week of seven years, just as Daniel said it would. It shows the same exact starting point, but there is something here that is also very different. The days of tribulation will be shortened for the sake of the elect, otherwise no flesh would be saved. This creates another problem for scholars assuming the tribulation is seven years in duration. And not only are the days shortened, but Christ also tells us that no one knows when the days of tribulation will be shortened, not Christ, nor the angels, but only His Father in heaven knows. Two things are certain here. The tribulation is not a seven year period of time and Daniel’s 70th week can not be shortened.

It seems that some scholars have created for themselves another tribulation out of thin air. They want us to believe the first 3 1/2 years of Daniel’s 70th week are the tribulation, and the second 3 1/2 years are the great tribulation. They describe the first half as a pseudo-peace or false peace, and the second half as the great tribulation. The trouble is that a pseudo-peace would not resemble the tribulation that Christ speaks of in any way. Furthermore, there is absolutely no mention anywhere in Scripture of a tribulation occurring before the abomination of desolation. Christ has referred to this terrible time as both, the great tribulation (Matt. 24:22), and the tribulation (Matt. 24:29).

Since this thread shows what the tribulation is not, next time I’ll discuss what the tribulation actually is. Stay tuned.

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You know that in science, when a scientist makes an assumption that goes against the "flow" of knowledge on a subject, they have other scientest who agree and have independently reached the same conclusions that point to the "error" of prior conclusions? I know you posted this on another forum and referenced your book, but where are the other biblical/end times scholars who agree with you in your "teaching?"

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You know that in science, when a scientist makes an assumption that goes against the "flow" of knowledge on a subject, they have other scientest who agree and have independently reached the same conclusions that point to the "error" of prior conclusions? I know you posted this on another forum and referenced your book, but where are the other biblical/end times scholars who agree with you in your "teaching?"

Do you mean, like gathering a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear? No, I'm here to expose those false assumptions, misconceptions and myths.

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You know that in science, when a scientist makes an assumption that goes against the "flow" of knowledge on a subject, they have other scientest who agree and have independently reached the same conclusions that point to the "error" of prior conclusions? I know you posted this on another forum and referenced your book, but where are the other biblical/end times scholars who agree with you in your "teaching?"

Do you mean, like gathering a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear? No, I'm here to expose those false assumptions, misconceptions and myths.

I believe Parker is asking who supports your theology, which is an honest question that I would also like to know.

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I thought it was basic christian teaching that the first half was peace and the 2nd half was tribulation? I didn't realize alot of people believed it was a full 7 years of tribulation.

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I thought it was basic christian teaching that the first half was peace and the 2nd half was tribulation? I didn't realize alot of people believed it was a full 7 years of tribulation.

There are about as many opinions on this subject as there are posters! Praying for God's truth on this matter will get you'His assistance on the matter. Take your time to read and study the Word. In time you will get your answers.

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You know that in science, when a scientist makes an assumption that goes against the "flow" of knowledge on a subject, they have other scientest who agree and have independently reached the same conclusions that point to the "error" of prior conclusions? I know you posted this on another forum and referenced your book, but where are the other biblical/end times scholars who agree with you in your "teaching?"

Do you mean, like gathering a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear? No, I'm here to expose those false assumptions, misconceptions and myths.

I believe Parker is asking who supports your theology, which is an honest question that I would also like to know.

As far as other biblical/end times scholars that are well known, I don't know that my book has reached any of them yet. My editor says it's usually a very slow process, and even more so when you are unknown. With so many thousands of books that are being published every year, it's hard to get book stores to carry your book until there starts to be a demand for it. There are people that are excited about my book, but probably no one that you would know. I'd guess that there's only about 200 copies in circulation so far, and probably about 90% of those were bought locally, in my neck of the woods.

I have been thinking of sending a copy to some other end times scholars, because so far, I've noticed the ones that do get excited about it are the ones who have some knowledge about the end times. The book is very challenging and thought provoking, no matter what rapture theory you happen to believe in. It will make you want to question why you believe what you believe. Do you have any suggestions of which scholars I should send a copy to?

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I thought it was basic christian teaching that the first half was peace and the 2nd half was tribulation? I didn't realize alot of people believed it was a full 7 years of tribulation.

Yes, Daniel's 70th week, which is a seven year period of time, is most often called the "7 year tribulation" these days, which is very misleading.

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I'm very wary of anyone who claims "new revelations."

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As far as other biblical/end times scholars that are well known, I don't know that my book has reached any of them yet. My editor says it's usually a very slow process, and even more so when you are unknown. With so many thousands of books that are being published every year, it's hard to get book stores to carry your book until there starts to be a demand for it. There are people that are excited about my book, but probably no one that you would know. I'd guess that there's only about 200 copies in circulation so far, and probably about 90% of those were bought locally, in my neck of the woods.

I have been thinking of sending a copy to some other end times scholars, because so far, I've noticed the ones that do get excited about it are the ones who have some knowledge about the end times. The book is very challenging and thought provoking, no matter what rapture theory you happen to believe in. It will make you want to question why you believe what you believe. Do you have any suggestions of which scholars I should send a copy to?

Sending a book to other end time theologists is one way of getting an idea, yet I have not even thought about this at all, so I can not offer any names. I was just wondering if you knew of any end time teachers who have the same theories you have, or close to it. It almost sounds like you have something completely new.

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More alien space bats theories. It is impossible to separate a period of 7 years (the last portion of Daniel's 70th week) into two periods of time with 2000 plus years in between. It defies logic, and if God is anything, He is a God of logic. Everything God does makes sense to Him, and He is the only one to whom He has to make sense.

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I'm very wary of anyone who claims "new revelations."

I certainly can't blame you for feeling that way. It caught me by surprise when I first read it, too. But it was my editor who wrote the teaser on the back cover. I wasn't even allowed a say in that. New revelations sounds a little strong, but I do believe it's an accurate description nevertheless, because of a major discovery of something that has been completely overlooked for many centuries. And then there are several other nuggets hidden in the parables that have been missed as well.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I really appreciate it.

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More alien space bats theories. It is impossible to separate a period of 7 years (the last portion of Daniel's 70th week) into two periods of time with 2000 plus years in between. It defies logic, and if God is anything, He is a God of logic. Everything God does makes sense to Him, and He is the only one to whom He has to make sense.

Impossible, that's a stretch if I've ever seen one. Just because someone may not be able to understand a particular concept, does not mean that it is impossible.

Daniel 9:25-27

Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

[26]And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

[27] And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

It's very easy to see that Messiah was cut off after 69 weeks (483 yrs) in verses (25 & 26) above. But in verse (27) another possibility opens up. If the Messiah was cut off after 69 weeks and the Romans came some forty years or so later and destroyed the city and santuary, then who is the (he) in verse (27) confirming another covenant for seven years? It sure wasn't Christ, because He never made a seven year covenant with anyone. The covenant He made with those of us who believe is an everlasting eternal covenant. So who is the (he) in verse (27)?

Do you think it's possible that Christ might have given hints that someone else would be coming in His place?

Matthew 24:23-26

Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

[24] For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

[25] Behold, I have told you before.

[26] Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

John 5:43

I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

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What seven year covenant? The length of the covenant is never stated. That is where gross errors enter in, when people insert things into the text that are not there. The 'He' is Jesus. The covenant confirmed was I believe the New Covenant (Heb 8:10 and 10:16), the covenant made after those days by which he would remember their sins no more.

Jesus was being facetious in Jn 5:43. Jews considered a name authority, So when Jesus says he comes in His Father's name, He means God's authority. So when Jesus says if 'another' were to come in his own (human) authority, the Jews would receive Him, that's an indictment upon their faithlessness.

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Don't new revelations come to us through mankind? God used human prophets and apostles in His book.

I do not know rollinTHUNDER nor anything about him except that from all appearance he is a Christian, so

I believe it is entirely possible that God might use him as a vessel to reveal His Word.

From time to time we do seem to get some more advanced information that helps our understanding.

Could this be one of those moments?

Has anyone here read his book? I am curious as to its contents.

Perhaps one day I will be able to read this book and the one written by Leonard, both are Worthy authors.

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More alien space bats theories. It is impossible to separate a period of 7 years (the last portion of Daniel's 70th week) into two periods of time with 2000 plus years in between. It defies logic, and if God is anything, He is a God of logic. Everything God does makes sense to Him, and He is the only one to whom He has to make sense.

I would agree in a certain sense, God is a God of logic, however, there is a serious problem with pushing this sort of reasoning because human logic and reasoning is flawed by sin. So, in essence, what you would be saying is "God conforms to my (possibly flawed) viewpoint of Him", which is not a good attitude to have. When you say "It defies logic", it would be more correct to say "It defies my logic or my way of looking at things". There are many, I repeat, many aspects of the spiritual world and God that we with all our human logic and understanding cannot fully comprehend while still in this mortal form:

For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

1 Corinthians 13:12

God may not (and often will not) make sense to us, but that is simply because of our flawed natures. That is why, as believers, servants, and students of the Most High we should look to God as such - "Not to what I think you are but to what you know yourself to be".

Edited by AlexanderJ
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What seven year covenant? The length of the covenant is never stated. That is where gross errors enter in,

[27] And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

that one week is 7 years long

Well, I see where you have made one of your mistakes Daniel, an easy one to make. It is the week that is a seven, not the covenant. The covenant's length and purpose are not mentioned. Only that Messiah will confirm it during the one week. Messiah causes sacrifice and oblation to cease at the halfway point of the 70th week. How? By his atoning death and subsequent resurrection. The sacrifices and oblations no longer are efficacious (effective against sin) because the actual has come to replace forever the type and shadow.

You also write:

"This thread is misleading and false. Daniel's 70th week is the final 7 years before Christs return to earth. You say the thread is misleading and false, then add your own falsehood to it, compounding the problem. Daniel's 70th week is not the final 7 years. There was much to come after it.

Daniels 70th week is a 7 year time period (correct) with a 7 year peace treaty with Israel and her enemies that guranteees peace & security for Israel (utterly false, the covenant is never said to be a peace treaty, nor is there any mention of peace and security in the text) and the midpoint in that 7 year period the man of sin, son of perdition , the man of lawlessness breaks the treaty and starts killing Jews in the area of Judea ,,which is why scricpture tells them to flee to the wilderness /mountains and do not spend time going to get things from their houses ,,if they do they will die ,,it is that urgent, it takes place by surprise, the son of perdition , the man of lawlessness goes into the temple stops the sacrifices , proclaims to the world that he is messiah , he claims to be God and demands that all people worldwide worship him , he sets up an image that can be accessed worldwide; if they refuse to woirship him they will be executed and die ...shortly after this begins the wrath of God takes place , the last half of the 7 year period is Great tribulation leading into Gods wrath on all inhabitants of earth for rejecting Christ and refusing to accept Christ as savoir , so bad that if Jesus did not return then all flesh would die ,(For God's sake man, l wish you would learn proper English. This run on nightmare makes no sense at all. The man of sin is never mentioned here, at all. Period. It's not in the text. You have inserted it, making a mess of the text.

but at the very end of the 7 year period Jesus does return to save Israel from total destruction and destroys all of Israels enemies , Jesus starts his 1000 year reign ,,,the saints that return with Jesus are His Kingdom that rule and reign with Him for the 1000 year time period , during the 1000 years satan is bound in the pit totally unable to deceive the nations , then near the end of the 1000 years he is loosed to deceive the nations and all that satan is able to deceive and follow him get thrown into the lake of fire forever,,,then the restoration of all things happens and the planet becomes like the Garden of Eve and only followers of Christ are on earth and are Gods family and thus begins all things new for eternity ,,sin will never again exist for Gods family , God will once again walk on earth with his family because sin will no longer separate God from his family

More mish-mash and confusion. None of the things you write here are in the text. They are not even alluded to in the text. When you comment on a text...STICK TO THE TEXT.

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BB

You stated above: Quote: Well, I see where you have made one of your mistakes Daniel, an easy one to make. It is the week that is a seven, not the covenant. The covenant's length and purpose are not mentioned. Only that Messiah will confirm it during the one week. Messiah causes sacrifice and oblation to cease at the halfway point of the 70th week. How? By his atoning death and subsequent resurrection. The sacrifices and oblations no longer are efficacious (effective against sin) because the actual has come to replace forever the type and shadow.

You state that the covenant's length and purpose are not mentioned, YET, you say HOW; By his atoning death and resurrection. (Which is the Purpose) If it's purpose is not given, How do you back up what you said. There is no Scriptural evidence that Christ made any covenant immediately after His Baptism, and thus 3 1/2 years later he died. And thus one cannot tie Christ to the "He shall confirm a covenant", it is not there.

You also state the the covenants length is not mentioned; But then you say that it is to Replace Forever. You are contridicting yourself.

Scripture says: he shall confrim a covenant with may FOR (how long) One Seven. The two are tied together. This "he" does not refer to Christ, for He made no such covenant. Then if He did, which part of His ministry did He make it and what specific Scripture will back up this covenant. For it better fall within your timeline.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Edited by Montana Marv
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What seven year covenant? The length of the covenant is never stated. That is where gross errors enter in,

[27] And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

that one week is 7 years long

Well, I see where you have made one of your mistakes Daniel, an easy one to make. It is the week that is a seven, not the covenant. The covenant's length and purpose are not mentioned. Only that Messiah will confirm it during the one week. Messiah causes sacrifice and oblation to cease at the halfway point of the 70th week. How? By his atoning death and subsequent resurrection. The sacrifices and oblations no longer are efficacious (effective against sin) because the actual has come to replace forever the type and shadow.

You also write:

"This thread is misleading and false. Daniel's 70th week is the final 7 years before Christs return to earth. You say the thread is misleading and false, then add your own falsehood to it, compounding the problem. Daniel's 70th week is not the final 7 years. There was much to come after it.

Daniels 70th week is a 7 year time period (correct) with a 7 year peace treaty with Israel and her enemies that guranteees peace & security for Israel (utterly false, the covenant is never said to be a peace treaty, nor is there any mention of peace and security in the text) and the midpoint in that 7 year period the man of sin, son of perdition , the man of lawlessness breaks the treaty and starts killing Jews in the area of Judea ,,which is why scricpture tells them to flee to the wilderness /mountains and do not spend time going to get things from their houses ,,if they do they will die ,,it is that urgent, it takes place by surprise, the son of perdition , the man of lawlessness goes into the temple stops the sacrifices , proclaims to the world that he is messiah , he claims to be God and demands that all people worldwide worship him , he sets up an image that can be accessed worldwide; if they refuse to woirship him they will be executed and die ...shortly after this begins the wrath of God takes place , the last half of the 7 year period is Great tribulation leading into Gods wrath on all inhabitants of earth for rejecting Christ and refusing to accept Christ as savoir , so bad that if Jesus did not return then all flesh would die ,(For God's sake man, l wish you would learn proper English. This run on nightmare makes no sense at all. The man of sin is never mentioned here, at all. Period. It's not in the text. You have inserted it, making a mess of the text.

but at the very end of the 7 year period Jesus does return to save Israel from total destruction and destroys all of Israels enemies , Jesus starts his 1000 year reign ,,,the saints that return with Jesus are His Kingdom that rule and reign with Him for the 1000 year time period , during the 1000 years satan is bound in the pit totally unable to deceive the nations , then near the end of the 1000 years he is loosed to deceive the nations and all that satan is able to deceive and follow him get thrown into the lake of fire forever,,,then the restoration of all things happens and the planet becomes like the Garden of Eve and only followers of Christ are on earth and are Gods family and thus begins all things new for eternity ,,sin will never again exist for Gods family , God will once again walk on earth with his family because sin will no longer separate God from his family

More mish-mash and confusion. None of the things you write here are in the text. They are not even alluded to in the text. When you comment on a text...STICK TO THE TEXT.

Here you are again showing your lack of knowledge and understanding but yet trying to criticize me ,,,,

You have a very serious problem with comprehending the simplicity of reading this very clear scripture

27] And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

that one week is 7 years long notice the key words ,then the same scripture goes on to say that in the midst of that week.....you simply do not understand what scripture plainly teaches

the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate

it is just as if you sign a lease and confirm it for 36 months ,,,plain as day

the covenant IS established for one week,,,a 7 year period ,,you need some serious study since you are unable to grasp what this simple phrase means ,

The rest is bible scripture , how many times does it take in proving you wrong before you begin to learn and understand ,,I have provided scipture that proves what I said is true and accurate many many times and you are always shown the error of your false thinking,,,

You cannot at all prove what I say wrong ,,it is your inability to see clearly

Every time I prove what I say to be correct, supported by scripture...proving you wrong ,,you simply vanish because you are not able to answer the questions I ask of you without admitting that what I show is accurate

You told me that when I said the term "man of sin" that it was not scripture that it was not even in the bible ,you claim I made it up ,,but when I proved to you that you are wrong and provided scripture proof , your pride got bent,,,you simply will not accept scripture proof , nor admit when you are wrong, even when scripture is given to you

You simply have a false teaching a false understanding,,,and too much pride to acknowledge your flawed thinking

Shall we do it again??

1. When I use the term 'the text' I mean whatever portion of Scripture is being spoken of, not the whole Bible. The term man of sin is not in Daniel 9:22-28, which is the body of text we're discussing.

2. I am pretty familiar with Daniel 9:22-28. It is a key eschatological Scripture.

3. All you are doing Daniel, is quoting the teachings of the pre-trib/pre-mil guys, not Scripture. You filter EVERYTHING through their teaching. Most people who believe in your understanding do just that. No offense, but you all sound like parrots. LaHaye, van Impe, and those guys say something, and everyone who believes their teaching quotes it. That's fine...IF you trust them. Personally, I've been there and after comparing their teaching to SCRIPTURE, they come up short. I don't trust their teaching, IT DOESN'T MATCH SCRIPTURE.

4. I suggest (after you learn to express yourself in English without half a page of run on sentence) that you learn to study FOR YOURSELF and not through J. N. Darby's (and Cy Scofield, and Harry Ironside, and Tim LaHaye, et al) filter. You will find that while I may not be 100% right, they are definitely incorrect as well...SERIOUSLY SO.

The original poster and I have disagreements as well, but he's right, the tribulation was NOT seven years. It WAS 3.5 years, 1260 days on a 360-day year calendar.

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BB

You stated above: Quote: Well, I see where you have made one of your mistakes Daniel, an easy one to make. It is the week that is a seven, not the covenant. The covenant's length and purpose are not mentioned. Only that Messiah will confirm it during the one week. Messiah causes sacrifice and oblation to cease at the halfway point of the 70th week. How? By his atoning death and subsequent resurrection. The sacrifices and oblations no longer are efficacious (effective against sin) because the actual has come to replace forever the type and shadow.

You state that the covenant's length and purpose are not mentioned, YET, you say HOW; By his atoning death and resurrection. (Which is the Purpose) If it's purpose is not given, How do you back up what you said. There is no Scriptural evidence that Christ made any covenant immediately after His Baptism, and thus 3 1/2 years later he died. And thus one cannot tie Christ to the "He shall confirm a covenant", it is not there.

You also state the the covenants length is not mentioned; But then you say that it is to Replace Forever. You are contridicting yourself.

Scripture says: he shall confrim a covenant with may FOR (how long) One Seven. The two are tied together. This "he" does not refer to Christ, for He made no such covenant. Then if He did, which part of His ministry did He make it and what specific Scripture will back up this covenant. For it better fall within your timeline.

In Christ

Montana Marv

The purpose and length of the covenant aren't mentioned IN THIS TEXT. Notice: he confirms a covenant. He doesn't make a covenant. The covenant is already established. Where? IN ANOTHER TEXT, specifically Jeremiah 31:34.

Furthermore, the Book of Hebrews tells us that Christ was the one who confirmed the new covenant in Heb 12:24, which I will give here to clarify:

It is written:

..."to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel."

Now look if you will at the word Mediator; it is the word mesites which means:

one who intervenes between two, either in order to make or restore peace and friendship, or form a compact, or for ratifying a covenant

I cite also Heb 9:14 through chapter end, specifically verse 18, where it is written:

Therefore not even the first covenant was dedicated without blood.

It is the death of Christ which confirms the covenant. So when Daniel speaks of One who confirms a covenant, he is most definitely referring to the New Covenant, spoken of by Jeremiah.

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If you proved me in error, I'd tell you so. But you haven't. All you've done is parrot the teachings of Darby. Darby was wrong. All those who've come along SINCE Darby are wrong as well. Also, you DO need to write proper English. How will anyone understand you if your sentences run on forever and have poor punctuation? If you don't care, well, that's on you.

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If you proved me in error, I'd tell you so. But you haven't. All you've done is parrot the teachings of Darby. Darby was wrong. All those who've come along SINCE Darby are wrong as well. Also, you DO need to write proper English. How will anyone understand you if your sentences run on forever and have poor punctuation? If you don't care, well, that's on you.

Simple concept ,,"and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast." the reference here is that the worlds people are amazed that the dead came back to life and with great power and authority ...

No Daniel, as I mentioned in my previous post, coming back to life is never mentioned in the passage. That has been inserted by people who are reading something else into the text that isn't there.

3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

4 And they worshiped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshiped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Remember also the world wonders after the Beast. The Beast is the Empire, not Nero. It was the Empire that went into disarray before a new Emperor. Almost the entire civilized world was ruled by Rome at the time and the Empire's subjects marveled that the Empire didn't crumble to pieces at the death of a major leader. "Nobody is greater than Rome!" is the sentiment here. "Nobody can make war against the Empire (which is just what the factions were doing)."

people are often called clinically dead and are revived and continue to live life...but all the worlds people do not worship them as they do the man of sin

The man of sin? Really? Where is the man of sin mentioned here? Here we go again, putting something into the text which is NOT THERE.

Christ Jesus throws the antichrist ALIVE INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE that burns forever nonstop. Nero was not cast alive into the Lake of Fire ,, nero was not the antichrist ,,

Well, you got one right. Nero was not the antichrist. The reason Nero is not the antichrist is because John didn't use the term antichrist until somewhere between 85 and 96, nearly 25-30 years after Nero's death on June 9, 68.

,when all scriptures are included it reveals that the man of sin( which at that moment who is very well liked by all the people who helped this man get into office to hold his position ; and confirms, is involved with bringing to pass the 7 year peace treaty with Israel , the man is very popluar with the country's people , they really like him a lot , as he has not suffered the fatal woundyet ) then after he does he becomes a evil man with satan incarnate within him ..Now he begins his evil rule and demands all people of all nations ,and all laguages worship him,,,nero did not rule over every nation every language on earth, Nero did not do that ,,,

Every Roman emperor ruled over every nation and language in the civilized world.

Where did anyone bring real physical consuming fire down from heaven that was in Nero power.

It was not within Nero's authority to bring down fire from heaven, it was within the authority of the Land-Beast. "Bringing down fire from heaven" is a euphemism for worship. It comes from I Kings 1:10 and 12, where Elijah says: If I am a man of God, let fire come down from heaven and consume you and your fifty."

Revelation 13

13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

Elijah the Prophet (1 Kings 18....a literal consuming fire !)had a contest to see who could do it , and only HE did with God providing this result ,, no one else was able to it .....in Revelation it is satan doing it to counterfiet the LORD in order to convince the people that he is God ,, it is part of the deception that God allows to punish the wicked non believers that reject Christ and show that Only Christ Jesus is LORD

Correct. Which was proof that God was behind it, allowing the deception that the Roman Emperors should be worshiped.

You still cannot see that the One World Government for the entire earth is forming ,,,all events preceeding the coming of Christ are in process now,,.. a digital monetary system is being established where ALL people on Earth will have to partake of a digital numbering system in order to buy or sell anything,,,it is happening now ,, to make this 'earth wide over' system takes time ,but is rapidily coming to pass,, in this generation,,,and all, the other events that must take place to fulfill scripture are getting close to being finished; as well as some things that have not begun yet ...things you refuse to acknowledge simply cause they totally defeat this crazy notion you have ,, you insist on ignoring many scriptures that defeat this crazy idea you have ,,,it would be simple logic that IF you really want the true truth you would acknowledge ALL scripture,, but you flat out refuse to

LOL. Governments are collapsing worldwide. Europe is coming apart at the seams, the Middle East is aflame with inter-nicene conflict, the United States is tottering on financial collapse and you say a one world government is coming? You can't get two countries on the planet anywhere to agree on jack-spit. The idea that a one world government is coming is an absolute joke. The only one-world anything out here is Gog leading Magog to battle against the Church.

Many things that you do not grasp properly ,,,the antichrist is a powerful person ,that has total control over the governmental system , no one but God has more power...there is NO reason whatsoever that would compel a man of that level of power to commit suicide ...the reason nero committed suicide is soley to avoid public humiliation of being flogged to death by men , appointed by the senate ,, it was nero cowardly way out of being publicly humiliated by being put to death by being flogged to death at the hands of others... '

often the beast is a kingdom or government , but sometimes satan is reffered to as the beast,,

the horns of the beasts are kings .. literal human kings ,, government leaders ,,it is one of the heads

the dragon is satan , also called the beast ,, you are trying to limit the matter to scriptures that you choose and the others you choose to exclude ,,

Where did anyone bring real physical consuming fire down from heaven that was in nero power??

Revelation 13

13And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

Elijah the Prophet (1 Kings 18....a literal consuming fire !)had a contest to see who could do it , and only HE did with God providing this result ,, no one else was able to it .....in Revelation it is satan doing it to counterfiet the LORD in order to convince the people that he is God ,, it is part of the deception that God allows to punish the wicked non believers that reject Christ and show that Only Christ Jesus is LORD

1 Kings 18

22 Then Elijah said to them, “I am the only one of the Lord’s prophets left, but Baal has four hundred and fifty prophets. 23 Get two bulls for us. Let Baal’s prophets choose one for themselves, and let them cut it into pieces and put it on the wood but not set fire to it. I will prepare the other bull and put it on the wood but not set fire to it. 24 Then you call on the name of your god, and I will call on the name of the Lord. The god who answers by fire—he is God.”

Then all the people said, “What you say is good.”

25 Elijah said to the prophets of Baal, “Choose one of the bulls and prepare it first, since there are so many of you. Call on the name of your god, but do not light the fire.” 26 So they took the bull given them and prepared it.

Then they called on the name of Baal from morning till noon. “Baal, answer us!” they shouted. But there was no response; no one answered. And they danced around the altar they had made.

27 At noon Elijah began to taunt them. “Shout louder!” he said. “Surely he is a god! Perhaps he is deep in thought, or busy, or traveling. Maybe he is sleeping and must be awakened.” 28 So they shouted louder and slashed themselves with swords and spears, as was their custom, until their blood flowed. 29 Midday passed, and they continued their frantic prophesying until the time for the evening sacrifice. But there was no response, no one answered, no one paid attention.

30 Then Elijah said to all the people, “Come here to me.” They came to him, and he repaired the altar of the Lord, which had been torn down. 31 Elijah took twelve stones, one for each of the tribes descended from Jacob, to whom the word of the Lord had come, saying, “Your name shall be Israel.” 32 With the stones he built an altar in the name of the Lord, and he dug a trench around it large enough to hold two seahs[a] of seed. 33 He arranged the wood, cut the bull into pieces and laid it on the wood. Then he said to them, “Fill four large jars with water and pour it on the offering and on the wood.”

34 “Do it again,” he said, and they did it again.

“Do it a third time,” he ordered, and they did it the third time. 35 The water ran down around the altar and even filled the trench.

36 At the time of sacrifice, the prophet Elijah stepped forward and prayed: “Lord, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel, let it be known today that you are God in Israel and that I am your servant and have done all these things at your command. 37 Answer me, Lord, answer me, so these people will know that you, Lord, are God, and that you are turning their hearts back again.”

38 Then the fire of the Lord fell and burned up the sacrifice, the wood, the stones and the soil, and also licked up the water in the trench.

39 And when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces: and they said, The Lord, he is the God; the Lord, he is the God.

simply NOT a eupenism ,,again you refuse to acknowledge what scripture teaches..

You need to truly understand the scripture is a literal fire coming down from heaven ,, not some euphemism for worship as you want to think for that is making a false assumption that is not true,, real fire came down from heaven for Elijah the prophet,, it is real and you fail to understand the meaning of

13And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

very simple to understand ,, it is a literal fire that comes down from heaven "in the sight of men"

people can see with their eyes this fire coming down from heaven ,, another reason why the nations marvel/wonder after him and say :"who can wage war with him?" since there is no weaponry that can compete with a man that has such power as to bring fire down from heaven on demand

the antichrist is a man controlled by satan incarnate within him .. satan literally operating within a man, not just a demon spirit,, the man of sin...

Description of the antichrist

2 Thessalonians 2:1-12

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Revelation 13

4 And they worshiped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

revelation 19

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

the antichrist..the son of perdition aka son of destruction,, the man of sin , man of lawlessness are all the same person , just various references of the same man

scripture in no way shape or form limits the matter to the "civilized world " that is your misinterpretation ,,, rather it states specificalLY Every Tribe , Every Tongue/language, Every Nation, ALL of them ,, the entire planet of nations .. your crazy idea that this whole matter of sin vs. pureness of salvation,, good vs. evil ,, the whole topic is limited to just a few nations in the eastern world is simply ludicrous ,, it pertains to 100% of ALL nations on earth,, just as Christ instructed to go out to all nations on earth to preach this gospel and make disciples of all nations..."..and then the end of the age will come" and Not beforehand....which shows that this matter has not yet been fulfilled and is still to come ,,

it has been declared by the most powerful organizations that all the worlds people be bew implanted witha RFID transponder by no later than 2017 ,, obama wants America done by 2013 ...so it is revealing that this will happen in the near future ,, alowing for tracking of people.

The one world religion is forming as well ,, but those like you refuse to see what is coming,, learn about Chrislam ,, the joining of some so called Christian churches with Islam and they allow for other religions to unite with them as well, ,, True Christianity cannot be united with any other god ,,

Just because you choose not to learn about how almost all nations on earth are NOW planning or already partners with the New World Order ,, a One world Government system ,,,and for just the reasons you stated ,.,it will all come together soon ,, those are reasons why so many nations are deciding that it be better to have a unified nation of government all united together ,, the global finanicial meltdown among other reasons are bringing nations together on this matter ,, but still you can't see with your closed eyes ,, all this is so very easy to find proof for .. but I don't have the time to show it all to you , but it is there to learn about If you actually wanted to learn of it ,

here is just one of several posts where you are shown to be in error ,,,and you refuse to admit it

I have never read anything of Darby and you will never find any posts pf mine that speak of his teachings....you just look for excuses to avoid the truth...when people show you proof you should learn from it ,,,just as you stated that a literal fire never came down from heaven, I give proof in scripture,Where is your admitting that you were wrong?

You are wrong in your concept of nero fulfilling scripture , you are in error among many topics but since you are indoctrinated in false teachings you are unable to accept truth, especially when your false brand of truth is shown to be full of error

other people prove you in error as well , you only get angry when your error is shown

I see not only that you need to write proper English, you need to learn to read it as well. I never stated that fire didn't come down from heaven. I said it was the PRIESTS (which compose the Land-Beast) who have the authority to bring it down, not the first beast. The facts stand for themselves. You don't understand a word of what I wrote in the post you quoted. So let me help you:

Nero is the PERSONFICATION of the First Beast. As Washington's or Lincoln's or Kennedy's name in their times signified America, so the name of Nero signified Rome. Nero being one of the heads, he died of a fatal wound and the absence of leadership cast the Roman Empire into a civil war. It seemed that the Empire might collapse, but another head came along and Rome (the Beast) continued on. This is what prompts the saying: "Who can make war against the Beast?" Even the loss of a leader couldn't destroy the Empire.

The second beast (or Land Beast) is the one which had power to bring fire down from heaven in the sight of men. This is what occurred at a PROPER sacrifice in the Old Testament. Fire would come down in the sight of the people and consume the offering. Elijah was NOT a priest. Only priests have the authority to bring down fire on the sacrifices by doing it in the proper manner. Elijah did what he did by the permission of God, even though he was a prophet. Had he NOT had permission from God, his fate would have been that of Nadab and Abihu in Lev 10:1 & 2. That was not a normal circumstance. Prophets don't bring down from heaven, priests do. The High Priest and those priests under him had that authority. The Scripture here merely means that these priests directed worship to Rome, which would be strange fire (and in the end, fire destroyed them).

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:swordfightsmiles: Lots of heat is being generated; but not much light. Edited by AlexanderJ
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Shalom, Montana Marv.

BB

You stated above: Quote: Well, I see where you have made one of your mistakes Daniel, an easy one to make. It is the week that is a seven, not the covenant. The covenant's length and purpose are not mentioned. Only that Messiah will confirm it during the one week. Messiah causes sacrifice and oblation to cease at the halfway point of the 70th week. How? By his atoning death and subsequent resurrection. The sacrifices and oblations no longer are efficacious (effective against sin) because the actual has come to replace forever the type and shadow.

You state that the covenant's length and purpose are not mentioned, YET, you say HOW; By his atoning death and resurrection. (Which is the Purpose) If it's purpose is not given, How do you back up what you said. There is no Scriptural evidence that Christ made any covenant immediately after His Baptism, and thus 3 1/2 years later he died. And thus one cannot tie Christ to the "He shall confirm a covenant", it is not there.

You also state the the covenants length is not mentioned; But then you say that it is to Replace Forever. You are contridicting yourself.

Scripture says: he shall confrim a covenant with may FOR (how long) One Seven. The two are tied together. This "he" does not refer to Christ, for He made no such covenant. Then if He did, which part of His ministry did He make it and what specific Scripture will back up this covenant. For it better fall within your timeline.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Read this carefully: Yeshua` did not MAKE a covenant! He didn't NEED to! He "STRENGTHENED" a covenant to many by submitting to be baptised and thus procurring God's blessing on His offer of the Kingdom. When the Father said, "This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased," He ENDORSED Yeshua` as HIS "Messiah" - HIS "Choice" - to be KING! The "he" in Dani'el 9:27 DOES refer to the Messiah, the Christ!

It is therefore the Davidic Covenant that was strengthened in Yeshua`s offer. Pay no attention to those who make the claim of the it being the New Covenant. They have not researched background or the beginnings of the New Covenant.

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Roy

I take neither as the covenant which is strengtened. In 2 Sam 7, David's Covenant Forever. v12 - I will raise up your offspring to succeed you, who will come from your own body, and I will establish his kingdom. v13b - and I will establish the throne of his kingdom Forever. v25 - And now, Lord God, keep Forever, the promise you have made concerning your servant (David) and his house.

If the Davidic Kingdom is to be Forever as was told to Nathan by the Lord. Forever then does not need to be strengthened. I will establish the throne of his kingdom Forever. This is a very, very, very, very strong, strong, strong, strong statement. This is Absolute.

BTW, Christ will not be sitting on the Throne of David until after Christs Second Coming. This will be Forever.

I don't buy what you are trying to reveal.

In Christ

Montana Marv

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