Jump to content

christian forums

Worthy Christian Forums - Christian Forums

Welcome to Worthy Christian Forums
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Photo

Blessings of Abraham a transferrable promise?

* * * * * 1 votes

This topic has been archived. This means that you cannot reply to this topic.
68 replies to this topic

#1
Remnantrob

Remnantrob

    Veteran Member

  • Senior Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 884 posts

Heard a sermon about this topic and was wondering what you guys thought.  Abraham was given blessing that he tried to give to Ishmael by his own work and God said no, it was going to Isaac even though he was the second born.  I've heard in that culture in those days that the first born was always entitled to the inheritances of the father.  We go down the lineage a little and see that the blessing was supposed to go to Esau goes to the second born Jacob.  Adam is the first man and Jesus is the second man and he gets the blessing(or is the blessing).  Could it be possible that the blessings/promises of Israel could be transferrable to the church? 

 

 

*** Removed link to SDA teaching ***


Edited by OneLight, 22 February 2014 - 10:22 AM.


#2
shiloh357

shiloh357

    Royal Member

  • Platinum Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 33,237 posts

Heard a sermon about this topic and was wondering what you guys thought.  Abraham was given blessing that he tried to give to Ishmael by his own work and God said no, it was going to Isaac even though he was the second born.  I've heard in that culture in those days that the first born was always entitled to the inheritances of the father.  We go down the lineage a little and see that the blessing was supposed to go to Esau goes to the second born Jacob.  Adam is the first man and Jesus is the second man and he gets the blessing(or is the blessing).  Could it be possible that the blessings/promises of Israel could be transferrable to the church? 

 

No.  You need understand that the blessing of Abraham and the blessings that God promised to national Israel are not same thing.   Gentiles are already included in the blessing of salvation promised to Abraham.

 

The blessings given to Abraham's physical descendents are not transferrable to the Church.  The Church and Israel are radically separate in the New Testament.  The NT never mixes the two.   There is no transfer of blessing.   The Church may participate in how God has blessed Israel, but the blessings are not transferred.

 

The notion that God has transferred the blessings of Israel to the church is root of over 1,700 years of ant-semtic persecution by the Church agasint the Jews.   It has no place in biblical Christianity and should trampled underfoot for the satanci teaching that it is.



#3
nebula

nebula

    Royal Member

  • Worthy Watchman
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 56,992 posts

Could it be possible that the blessings/promises of Israel could be transferrable to the church? 

 

Who were the first "church" members, Jews or Gentiles?



#4
Remnantrob

Remnantrob

    Veteran Member

  • Senior Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 884 posts


Could it be possible that the blessings/promises of Israel could be transferrable to the church?


Who were the first "church" members, Jews or Gentiles?

Well the first people of God were gentiles. Abraham was a gentile called out from the world to represent God. But that wasn't your question so I will answer it. The first church consisted of jews.

#5
Remnantrob

Remnantrob

    Veteran Member

  • Senior Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 884 posts


Heard a sermon about this topic and was wondering what you guys thought. Abraham was given blessing that he tried to give to Ishmael by his own work and God said no, it was going to Isaac even though he was the second born. I've heard in that culture in those days that the first born was always entitled to the inheritances of the father. We go down the lineage a little and see that the blessing was supposed to go to Esau goes to the second born Jacob. Adam is the first man and Jesus is the second man and he gets the blessing(or is the blessing). Could it be possible that the blessings/promises of Israel could be transferrable to the church?

No. You need understand that the blessing of Abraham and the blessings that God promised to national Israel are not same thing. Gentiles are already included in the blessing of salvation promised to Abraham.

The blessings given to Abraham's physical descendents are not transferrable to the Church. The Church and Israel are radically separate in the New Testament. The NT never mixes the two. There is no transfer of blessing. The Church may participate in how God has blessed Israel, but the blessings are not transferred.

The notion that God has transferred the blessings of Israel to the church is root of over 1,700 years of ant-semtic persecution by the Church agasint the Jews. It has no place in biblical Christianity and should trampled underfoot for the satanci teaching that it is.

I don't see it as antisemitism because I don't have any issues with people of Jewish heritage. What I don't see is the importance given to them as God's people when we are all equal. Could you list the promises that are only applicable to Israel? I'm not claiming to know anything but how can they still be heirs to those promises if they were conditional? If Jesus is the only way are Messianic Jews the only heirs because the Jews I know don't even recognize them for accepting Jesus. Thanks

#6
Montana Marv

Montana Marv

    Senior Member

  • Senior Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,063 posts

Some of the blessings to Abraham are transferable, the others are not.

 

God promised Abraham in a Covenant; a seed, a land, and a blessing.

 

The seed was through Issac and Jacob (not transferable) Gen 17:15-19

The land was for this specific group (not transferable) Gen 15:18-20

The blessing later came through Jesus Christ (all who come to Him are included)  Gen 12:3

 

In Christ

Montana Marv



#7
Qnts2

Qnts2

    Senior Member

  • Senior Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,503 posts

 

 

Heard a sermon about this topic and was wondering what you guys thought. Abraham was given blessing that he tried to give to Ishmael by his own work and God said no, it was going to Isaac even though he was the second born. I've heard in that culture in those days that the first born was always entitled to the inheritances of the father. We go down the lineage a little and see that the blessing was supposed to go to Esau goes to the second born Jacob. Adam is the first man and Jesus is the second man and he gets the blessing(or is the blessing). Could it be possible that the blessings/promises of Israel could be transferrable to the church?

No. You need understand that the blessing of Abraham and the blessings that God promised to national Israel are not same thing. Gentiles are already included in the blessing of salvation promised to Abraham.

The blessings given to Abraham's physical descendents are not transferrable to the Church. The Church and Israel are radically separate in the New Testament. The NT never mixes the two. There is no transfer of blessing. The Church may participate in how God has blessed Israel, but the blessings are not transferred.

The notion that God has transferred the blessings of Israel to the church is root of over 1,700 years of ant-semtic persecution by the Church agasint the Jews. It has no place in biblical Christianity and should trampled underfoot for the satanci teaching that it is.

I don't see it as antisemitism because I don't have any issues with people of Jewish heritage. What I don't see is the importance given to them as God's people when we are all equal. Could you list the promises that are only applicable to Israel? I'm not claiming to know anything but how can they still be heirs to those promises if they were conditional? If Jesus is the only way are Messianic Jews the only heirs because the Jews I know don't even recognize them for accepting Jesus. Thanks

 

Unfortunately, 'replacement theology', is anti-semitic. Of course, there are verying degrees. 

 

The basic premise of replacement theology is that due to rejection of Jesus, the Jewish people have lost all of Gods blessings, and these blessings are given instead to the Church.

 

From there, it must be added that God gave a covenant to the Jewish people which had both blessings and curses. While the church, in replacement theology, claims the blessings given to the Jewish people, but rejects having received the curses, and so the Jewish people get only the curses.  When Replacement theology separates the blessing tranferred to the church, and the curses kept by the Jewish people, we have a view that the Jewish people deserve being cursed. From there we have those who go further and believe that the Jewish people are eternally cursed, unsavable, of the synagogue of Satan, etc. It gets even uglier from there. At the end of this idea, we have such groups as the KKK, Nazis, Islam, all claiming to have replaced the Jewish people, and are now the Chosen people. British Israelism, claims that they are Israel and modern Jews are usurpers. Black Israel, also claims to be Israel, and the modern Jews are false. 

 

Scripture, both OT and NT, speaks of eternal promises to the Jewish people, so Replacement Theology essentially says God who made these promises to the Jewish people, didn't really mean it.    



#8
shiloh357

shiloh357

    Royal Member

  • Platinum Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 33,237 posts

 

 

Heard a sermon about this topic and was wondering what you guys thought. Abraham was given blessing that he tried to give to Ishmael by his own work and God said no, it was going to Isaac even though he was the second born. I've heard in that culture in those days that the first born was always entitled to the inheritances of the father. We go down the lineage a little and see that the blessing was supposed to go to Esau goes to the second born Jacob. Adam is the first man and Jesus is the second man and he gets the blessing(or is the blessing). Could it be possible that the blessings/promises of Israel could be transferrable to the church?

No. You need understand that the blessing of Abraham and the blessings that God promised to national Israel are not same thing. Gentiles are already included in the blessing of salvation promised to Abraham.

The blessings given to Abraham's physical descendents are not transferrable to the Church. The Church and Israel are radically separate in the New Testament. The NT never mixes the two. There is no transfer of blessing. The Church may participate in how God has blessed Israel, but the blessings are not transferred.

The notion that God has transferred the blessings of Israel to the church is root of over 1,700 years of ant-semtic persecution by the Church agasint the Jews. It has no place in biblical Christianity and should trampled underfoot for the satanci teaching that it is.

I don't see it as antisemitism because I don't have any issues with people of Jewish heritage. What I don't see is the importance given to them as God's people when we are all equal. Could you list the promises that are only applicable to Israel? I'm not claiming to know anything but how can they still be heirs to those promises if they were conditional? If Jesus is the only way are Messianic Jews the only heirs because the Jews I know don't even recognize them for accepting Jesus. Thanks

 

If God's promises to Israel were transferred to the Church, then God can't be trusted to keep His promises.  If God decided not to keep His promises to Israel, his chosen people and transferred His promises to someone else, why should WE trust God to keep His promises to us?

 

God is faithful to keep all of the promises He made to Israel.  The issue is not about how important the Jews are; the issue is God's integrity.  God keeps His promises to Israel to prove His faithfulness not because Jews are more important.



#9
nebula

nebula

    Royal Member

  • Worthy Watchman
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 56,992 posts




Could it be possible that the blessings/promises of Israel could be transferrable to the church?

Who were the first "church" members, Jews or Gentiles?
Well the first people of God were gentiles. Abraham was a gentile called out from the world to represent God.

 

Nice try. But there could not have been a Jew-Gentile split before there were Jews. And we're talking about the promise of Israel, the inheritance given to Abraham's descendants through Isaac and Jacob/Israel.

 

 

But that wasn't your question so I will answer it. The first church consisted of jews.

 

Correct.

 

There was no "transferrance" away from the Jews (Israel), for the original church was a remnant of Jewish believers. The Gentiles who believed were later grafted in to this covenant.

 

Jesus is the mediator of a new Covenant, not a tranferer of an older covenant.



#10
other one

other one

    Royal Member

  • Royal Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 24,908 posts

I don't remember Abraham promised eternal life....



#11
OakWood

OakWood

    Royal Member

  • Royal Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,006 posts

The final promise to the Jews was unconditional. God does not lie, nor does he break his promises. Unfulfilled prophecies have yet to come.

 

23 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

 

Zechariah 8

 

It's not happened yet - it has to be.



#12
EnochBethany

EnochBethany

    Veteran Member

  • Banned
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 687 posts

Of course Ishmael was the son of a slave-concubine, not of the wife, Sarah.  Galatians 4 discusses this somewhat at length.

 

What you are trying to do, I think, is to draw parallels, which would be called typology, a legitimate way to include in studying the Bible.  A "type" is a prophecy, not by word, but by illustration, like when Ezekiel cut off his hair & did various things to it to symbolize the destruction coming to Israel.  The Lord Jesus is said to be a prophet like Moses, so parallels are rightly drawn between the two.  One may see in Moses second coming a type of Christ's 2nd coming.  Moses took a Gentile wife, Christ took the Church (predominantly Gentile) as his wife, and so forth.

 

So keep up the good study.



#13
fruitfull77

fruitfull77

    Junior Member

  • Junior Member
  • PipPip
  • 132 posts

Gal 3:29 - " And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs to the promise."

 

Through Christ all nations are to be blessed.

 

The promises to Abraham are dual, both physical (the descendants of Abraham) and spiritual (the followers of Christ)

 

Spiritual Israel of God is the church.



#14
Openly Curious

Openly Curious

    Royal Member

  • Royal Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,301 posts

Gal 3:29 - " And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs to the promise."

 

Through Christ all nations are to be blessed.

 

The promises to Abraham are dual, both physical (the descendants of Abraham) and spiritual (the followers of Christ)

 

Spiritual Israel of God is the church.

 

:thumbsup:



#15
shiloh357

shiloh357

    Royal Member

  • Platinum Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 33,237 posts

I don't remember Abraham promised eternal life....

The Gospel was preached to Abraham (Gal. 3).   Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness (Rom. 4)  Our faith is credited to us as righteousness the same as Abraham (Rom. 4)

 

So yeah, He had eternal life.



#16
shiloh357

shiloh357

    Royal Member

  • Platinum Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 33,237 posts

Gal 3:29 - " And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs to the promise."

 

Through Christ all nations are to be blessed.

 

The promises to Abraham are dual, both physical (the descendants of Abraham) and spiritual (the followers of Christ)

 

Spiritual Israel of God is the church.

No, the Church is not a spiritual Israel.   The NT never spiritualizes israel to refer to the Church.  The Church is NEVER called Israel.   Israel is Israel.  the Church is the Church.  They are radically separate in the NT.



#17
nebula

nebula

    Royal Member

  • Worthy Watchman
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 56,992 posts
...Christ took the Church (predominantly Gentile) as his wife, and so forth.

 

Actually, that isn't exactly accurate. The Church became Gentile in nature. She did not start that way. She was originally 100% Jewish.

 

Acts 2, the coming of the Holy Spirit occurred while the Jews were celebrating the Feast of Weeks, the Feast of the Lord where the people celebrate the coming of the Law. See the parallel?



#18
nebula

nebula

    Royal Member

  • Worthy Watchman
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 56,992 posts

Spiritual Israel of God is the church.

 

"Spiritual Israel" is not found in the Scriptures anywhere.



#19
kwikphilly

kwikphilly

    Royal Member

  • Royal Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,449 posts

Blessings Remantrob

      God Bless you & All Praise & Glory to our Lord,God!!!! Heres where it just seems to get all complicated when there is nothing complicated about it at all............God is Faithful & True to His Promises,,,the Blessings & Promises He has made in Covenant with Israel shall stand forever,just as He said ....His New Covenant promises & Blessings He has for His Church through Christ will stand forever.....two seperate ,non-transferrable Blessings for two different peoples...............yet,in Christ,,,,the Promise & Guarantee Seal of Redemption is available for everyone......Oh,but for the Grace of God,Halleluliah!

                                                                                                                                               With love-in Christ,Kwik



#20
nebula

nebula

    Royal Member

  • Worthy Watchman
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 56,992 posts

...God is Faithful & True to His Promises,,,

 

the Blessings & Promises He has made in Covenant with Israel shall stand forever,just as He said ....

His New Covenant promises & Blessings He has for His Church through Christ will stand forever.....

 

two seperate ,non-transferrable Blessings for two different peoples...............

 

yet,in Christ,,,,the Promise & Guarantee Seal of Redemption is available for everyone......

Oh,but for the Grace of God,Halleluliah!

 

Amen!

 

Why desire the Covenant God made with Israel?

 

IS not Jesus awesome enough?






Worthy Christian Forums - Christian Message Boards - 1999-2014 part of the Worthy Network