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Rapture after 6th seal // MID-TRIB

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#1
dscapp

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All one has to do is look at ISIS and the persecution of Christians to know that tribulation and God's wrath are not the same..

 

Isa 13:10 The stars of heaven and their constellations will not show their light. The rising sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light.

Matt 24:29-31 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:14-27 "But when you see the abomination of desolation standing where he ought not to be (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 15 Let the one who is on the housetop not go down, nor enter his house, to take anything out, 16 and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak. 17 And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! 18 Pray that it may not happen in winter. 19 For in those days there will be such tribulation as has not been from the beginning of the creation that God created until now, and never will be. 20 And if the Lord had not cut short the days, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, whom he chose, he shortened the days. 21 And then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'Look, there he is!' do not believe it. 22 For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform signs and wonders, to lead astray, if possible, the elect. 23 But be on guard; I have told you all things beforehand.

24 "But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, 25 and the stars will be falling from heaven, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26 And then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then he will send out the angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven.

Luke 21:25-28 “There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26People will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 27At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”

Rev 6:12-14 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place



#2
Spock

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For the record, I also agree that the rapture is in the 6th seal, but I do not agree that Matthew 24:29-31 is describing the rapture.

I believe that passage alludes to the second coming of Christ at the end of Daniels 70th week to regather physical Israel (not the church in rapture) and is at the end of the 7 bowls judgment.

#3
dscapp

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but I do not agree that Matthew 24:29-31 is describing the rapture.

I believe that passage alludes to the second coming of Christ at the end of Daniels 70th week to regather physical Israel (not the church in rapture) and is at the end of the 7 bowls judgment.

 

Hi Spock, can you prove through scripture that Matt 24:29-31 is in the timeline of what you're describing.

Scripture tells me there is only one rapture,

the name given (second coming of Christ) is simply a name given for multiple events,

and the rapture is one of those events.



#4
Salty

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All one has to do is look at ISIS and the persecution of Christians to know that tribulation and God's wrath are not the same..

 

Isa 13:10 The stars of heaven and their constellations will not show their light. The rising sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light.

Matt 24:29-31 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:14-27 "But when you see the abomination of desolation standing where he ought not to be (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 15 Let the one who is on the housetop not go down, nor enter his house, to take anything out, 16 and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak. 17 And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! 18 Pray that it may not happen in winter. 19 For in those days there will be such tribulation as has not been from the beginning of the creation that God created until now, and never will be. 20 And if the Lord had not cut short the days, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, whom he chose, he shortened the days. 21 And then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'Look, there he is!' do not believe it. 22 For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform signs and wonders, to lead astray, if possible, the elect. 23 But be on guard; I have told you all things beforehand.

24 "But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, 25 and the stars will be falling from heaven, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26 And then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then he will send out the angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven.

Luke 21:25-28 “There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26People will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 27At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”

Rev 6:12-14 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place

 

I do agree mostly with your assessment, except the timing of that great earthquake with the 6th seal is not a Mid/Trib timing. Same earthquake is shown at the 7th trumpet, and at the 7th vial...

 

Rev.16

17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

 

 

Rev.11

13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

 

That 6th seal timing is the "day of the Lord" events that end this present world. So is the 7th trumpet and 7th vial timing. That is when Jesus returns to gather His Church and go to Jerusalem. It is when the battle of Armageddon happens. It is when the battle of Ezek.38 & 39 happens with the gathering of Israel in toto back to the holy land. It is when all eyes will see Jesus coming in the clouds. It is the events of Matt.24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 with Jesus' coming to gather His elect.



#5
dscapp

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I do agree mostly with your assessment, except the timing of that great earthquake with the 6th seal is not a Mid/Trib timing. Same earthquake is shown at the 7th trumpet, and at the 7th vial...

 

Rev.16

17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

 

 

Rev.11

13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

 

That 6th seal timing is the "day of the Lord" events that end this present world. So is the 7th trumpet and 7th vial timing. That is when Jesus returns to gather His Church and go to Jerusalem. It is when the battle of Armageddon happens. It is when the battle of Ezek.38 & 39 happens with the gathering of Israel in toto back to the holy land. It is when all eyes will see Jesus coming in the clouds. It is the events of Matt.24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 with Jesus' coming to gather His elect.

 

But you're missing something. Rev 11 & 16 do not mention the sun, moon and stars.



#6
Salty

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I do agree mostly with your assessment, except the timing of that great earthquake with the 6th seal is not a Mid/Trib timing. Same earthquake is shown at the 7th trumpet, and at the 7th vial...

 

Rev.16

17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

 

 

Rev.11

13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

 

That 6th seal timing is the "day of the Lord" events that end this present world. So is the 7th trumpet and 7th vial timing. That is when Jesus returns to gather His Church and go to Jerusalem. It is when the battle of Armageddon happens. It is when the battle of Ezek.38 & 39 happens with the gathering of Israel in toto back to the holy land. It is when all eyes will see Jesus coming in the clouds. It is the events of Matt.24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 with Jesus' coming to gather His elect.

 

But you're missing something. Rev 11 & 16 do not mention the sun, moon and stars.

 

 

With the Rev.11:13-15 example, do we really need... an exact word for word repeat of the 6th seal in Rev.6, especially with that Rev.11:15 verse that shows all the kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of The Father and The Son at that point, and the rewards to the saints and the time of God's wrath? Do you treat all the events in The Four Gospels as different events too, just because they were described differently between them? The 6th seal, 7th trumpet, 7th vial are all the same timing of events, because there is enough description between them to show those things will only... occur at the very end when Jesus returns to reign.



#7
dscapp

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With the Rev.11:13-15 example, do we really need..

 

YES, you really need..otherwise you are simply grasping at straws.

The effects of the sun, moon and stars are vital to what is going on upon rapture.

The sun and moon darken and the stars fall from the sky.


Edited by dscapp, 16 August 2014 - 05:21 PM.


#8
Salty

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With the Rev.11:13-15 example, do we really need..

 

YES, you really need..otherwise you are simply grasping at straws.

The effects of the sun, moon and stars are vital to what is going on upon rapture.

The sun and moon darken and the stars fall from the sky.

 

 

*** deleted personal attack ***  That phrase is not included in all Scripture about the time of Christ's second coming and gathering of His Church, but you try to make that a requirement. Why didn't Apostle Paul include it then in 2 Thess.2 when he spoke of the timing of Christ's coming and gathering of His Church? same thing in 1 Thess.4 and many other NT Scriptures?


Edited by OneLight, 16 August 2014 - 05:41 PM.
edited to remove personal attack.


#9
dscapp

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With the Rev.11:13-15 example, do we really need..

 

YES, you really need..otherwise you are simply grasping at straws.

The effects of the sun, moon and stars are vital to what is going on upon rapture.

The sun and moon darken and the stars fall from the sky.

 

 

That's just more hot air like Spock was pushing. That phrase is not included in all Scripture about the time of Christ's second coming and gathering of His Church, but you try to make that a requirement. Why didn't Apostle Paul include it then in 2 Thess.2 when he spoke of the timing of Christ's coming and gathering of His Church? same thing in 1 Thess.4 and many other NT Scriptures?

 

Did you not read the scriptures in the OP, mentioning sun, moon and  stars 15 times.

You're expecting the sun, moon and stars to be in every scripture?? Come on now.

The OP scriptures ARE about the second coming. Work with me here Salty.



#10
OneLight

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Look, we have a lot of threads about when the rapture will occur.  If this one harbors personal attacks, it will be short lived.  From the ToS:

 

Abuse of other posters is not allowed. This includes, but is not limited to, name calling, insulting, harassing, threatening or in any way invading the privacy of another poster.

 

Debate the subject, not the person. It is possible to disagree about a doctrine or subject under discussion without insulting the person with whom you are debating.



#11
Salty

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Did you not read the scriptures in the OP, mentioning sun, moon and  stars 15 times.

You're expecting the sun, moon and stars to be in every scripture?? Come on now.

The OP scriptures ARE about the second coming. Work with me here Salty.

 

 

Have you not read Apostle Paul's declarations of the timing of Christ's coming and gathering of His Church that do not include your personal requirement, like 2 Thess.2 and 1 Thess.4?

 

Are you saying Paul was not talking about Christ's second coming in those 2 Thess.2 and 1 Thess.4 Scriptures?

 

Why are you wanting to 'key' only on those sun darkened, moon not give its light, stars falling phrases?

 

 

I'm going to show you one of your errors of thinking involving that, within the 6th Seal timing. You may or may not grasp it, I don't know.

 

Rev.6

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

 

Why did our Lord give that specific part "even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs"?



#12
dscapp

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Did you not read the scriptures in the OP, mentioning sun, moon and  stars 15 times.

You're expecting the sun, moon and stars to be in every scripture?? Come on now.

The OP scriptures ARE about the second coming. Work with me here Salty.

 

 

Have you not read Apostle Paul's declarations of the timing of Christ's coming and gathering of His Church that do not include your personal requirement, like 2 Thess.2 and 1 Thess.4?

 

Are you saying Paul was not talking about Christ's second coming in those 2 Thess.2 and 1 Thess.4 Scriptures?

 

Why are you wanting to 'key' only on those sun darkened, moon not give its light, stars falling phrases?

 

 

I'm going to show you one of your errors of thinking involving that, within the 6th Seal timing. You may or may not grasp it, I don't know.

 

Rev.6

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

 

Why did our Lord give that specific part "even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs"?

 

 

Yes, Thessalonians talks about rapture but in a different way...

it talks about our (bodies being made new).

The scriptures in the OP state the timeline of the rapture.

Bodies and timeline are two different topics.

We're discussing timeline here.


Edited by dscapp, 16 August 2014 - 06:13 PM.


#13
OneLight

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Did you not read the scriptures in the OP, mentioning sun, moon and  stars 15 times.

You're expecting the sun, moon and stars to be in every scripture?? Come on now.

The OP scriptures ARE about the second coming. Work with me here Salty.

 

 

Have you not read Apostle Paul's declarations of the timing of Christ's coming and gathering of His Church that do not include your personal requirement, like 2 Thess.2 and 1 Thess.4?

 

Are you saying Paul was not talking about Christ's second coming in those 2 Thess.2 and 1 Thess.4 Scriptures?

 

Why are you wanting to 'key' only on those sun darkened, moon not give its light, stars falling phrases?

 

 

I'm going to show you one of your errors of thinking involving that, within the 6th Seal timing. You may or may not grasp it, I don't know.

 

Rev.6

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

 

Why did our Lord give that specific part "even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs"?

 

This is a description of what the stars falling looks like.  Seasoned fruit still hanging on a tree will be cast down in high numbers when a strong winds blow.

 

My Interlinear reads:

 

"and the stars of the heaven fall into the land as fig tree is casting the whole looses of her under great wind being quaked."



#14
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There will be no rapture nor resurrection before the 7th trumpet, the coming.

The last trump must sound first.

 

jesse.



#15
dscapp

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There will be no rapture nor resurrection before the 7th trumpet, the coming.

The last trump must sound first.

 

jesse.

 

Hi Jesse. I'm not sure where your timeline falls in. Can you provide scripture.



#16
Hindsfeet

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Another Nugget for the Sixth Seal Timing:

Isa 34:4 KJV -

And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.



#17
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There will be no rapture nor resurrection before the 7th trumpet, the coming.

The last trump must sound first.

 

jesse.

 

Hi Jesse. I'm not sure where your timeline falls in. Can you provide scripture.

 

Hi Dscapp.

 

  1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the ***last trump***: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

 

Last trump means the 7th trumpet.

 

jesse.
 



#18
Hindsfeet

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There are more than one set of Trumpets.

 

1Th 4:16 KJV - For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

 

 Num 10:2 KJV - Make thee two trumpets of silver; of a whole piece shalt thou make them: that thou mayest use them for the calling of the assembly, and for the journeying of the camps.



#19
dscapp

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Hi Dscapp.

 

  1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the ***last trump***: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

 

Last trump means the 7th trumpet.

 

jesse.

 

Are the trumpets of 1 Cor. 15:52 and Rev. 11:15-18 the same event?

The answer is "no." The fact that the seventh trumpet of the seven trumpet series in Revelation is the last mentioned trumpet in the book (Rev. 11:15-18) and that Paul indicates the rapture will occur at the last trumpet (1 Cor. 15:52) does not a priori mean that the same event is cited.

A grammatical and lexical study demonstrates that 1 Corinthians 15:52 denotes the actual blasting of a trumpet. The idea is that of a last blast of a particular trumpet. At the last blast of a trumpet, the dead will be raised. The name of this trumpet is not "the last trumpet." This is not what Paul is indicating here. Rather, the focus is on the sound of the trumpet. This passage gives no clue what trumpet is blown. Only that when the last blast occurs, the dead will be raised.

Paul tells us in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 that this trumpet is the trumpet of God. This is the actual name of the trumpet which will be blown at the rapture, the last blast of which will signal the time of resurrection for dead saints. The first time the trumpet of God appears in Scripture can be traced back to Exodus 19:10-20:21. There the trumpet not only served to alert the people to the coming of God into man's domain, but also to warn the people of the seriousness of the moment. This will be the case again at the rapture of the church when God the Father comes with Jesus to deliver the righteous and begin the punishment of the wicked.

The seventh trumpet of Revelation is but one of seven trumpets that introduces judgment against the world. These trumpets do not introduce one example of deliverance. They are clearly the judgment of God against those who dwell on the earth. The sequences demands that the church be removed before the first trumpet because the wrath of God is involved.

Isaiah 27:13 states, "It will come about also in that day that a great trumpet will be blown; and those who were perishing in the land of Assyria and who were scattered in the land of Egypt will come and worship the LORD in the holy mountain at Jerusalem." This passage indicates that the seventh trumpet of Revelation is not the last trumpet to be blown in human history. This trumpet called the "great trumpet" will call Israel back to the land after the Seventieth week of Daniel ends.

 

Thus we can conclude correctly that Paul's trumpet blast and the trumpets of Revelation are not the same.
 



#20
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Hi Dscapp.

 

  1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the ***last trump***: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

 

Last trump means the 7th trumpet.

 

jesse.

 

Are the trumpets of 1 Cor. 15:52 and Rev. 11:15-18 the same event?

The answer is "no." The fact that the seventh trumpet of the seven trumpet series in Revelation is the last mentioned trumpet in the book (Rev. 11:15-18) and that Paul indicates the rapture will occur at the last trumpet (1 Cor. 15:52) does not a priori mean that the same event is cited.

A grammatical and lexical study demonstrates that 1 Corinthians 15:52 denotes the actual blasting of a trumpet. The idea is that of a last blast of a particular trumpet. At the last blast of a trumpet, the dead will be raised. The name of this trumpet is not "the last trumpet." This is not what Paul is indicating here. Rather, the focus is on the sound of the trumpet. This passage gives no clue what trumpet is blown. Only that when the last blast occurs, the dead will be raised.

Paul tells us in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 that this trumpet is the trumpet of God. This is the actual name of the trumpet which will be blown at the rapture, the last blast of which will signal the time of resurrection for dead saints. The first time the trumpet of God appears in Scripture can be traced back to Exodus 19:10-20:21. There the trumpet not only served to alert the people to the coming of God into man's domain, but also to warn the people of the seriousness of the moment. This will be the case again at the rapture of the church when God the Father comes with Jesus to deliver the righteous and begin the punishment of the wicked.

The seventh trumpet of Revelation is but one of seven trumpets that introduces judgment against the world. These trumpets do not introduce one example of deliverance. They are clearly the judgment of God against those who dwell on the earth. The sequences demands that the church be removed before the first trumpet because the wrath of God is involved.

Isaiah 27:13 states, "It will come about also in that day that a great trumpet will be blown; and those who were perishing in the land of Assyria and who were scattered in the land of Egypt will come and worship the LORD in the holy mountain at Jerusalem." This passage indicates that the seventh trumpet of Revelation is not the last trumpet to be blown in human history. This trumpet called the "great trumpet" will call Israel back to the land after the Seventieth week of Daniel ends.

 

Thus we can conclude correctly that Paul's trumpet blast and the trumpets of Revelation are not the same.
 

 

Dscapp.

 

There are only seven trumpets.There is no 8th trumpet.

At the coming Jesus will come with his armies in heaven and Micha'el as chief of the army.

He will sound the last trumpet. At the coming.

 

jesse.






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