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The Falling Away by Ron Graham

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#1
Littlelambseativy

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The Falling Away


By Ron Graham





“That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand… Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?” 2 Thessalonians 2:2, 5. Paul had already taught the Thessalonians about the Rapture and the Tribulation period. But something had gone wrong; these folks had received a letter as though it was from Paul telling them that the day of Christ had indeed come. Paul is reiterating to the saints at Thessalonica that the day of Christ had not come and that they had no need to be troubled or shaken of mind. How could Paul be so sure the day of Christ had not come? Because there had to first come a mass rejection of Jesus Christ prior to the Rapture, yet at that point in time people were coming to Jesus in droves, not rejecting Him in mass.

“Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;” 2 Thessalonians 2:3. The Thessalonians had to be re-taught in regards to the timing of the Rapture. Paul had to dispel their anxiety, which he did by reminding them that first comes “the falling away” and then the son of perdition (the antichrist) is revealed. The Greek word “apostasia” is translated apostasy in English. Many people think this refers to the body of Christ falling away from the faith, but this cannot be so. It’s impossible for those who have been born again - born from God - to lose, reject, walk away, fall away, or in any way be removed as a child of God. Thus “the falling away” must point to some other segment of society.

This “apostasia” Paul speaks of refers to the mass rejection of Jesus Christ as Saviour and Lord in the last days by earth’s populous. The words in the KJV are “a falling away” but the correct translation from the original Greek language is “the falling away” which is how this verse is rendered in the NKJV. It’s an event that has a preset timing. It’s most damaging occurrence and consequence will be just prior to the Tribulation. The Ekklesia of Christ has been witnessing this rejection of our God and Saviour, Jesus Christ, for some time. Only now, since we are at the end of this age, the rejection of Jesus Christ will become massive in scale.

The falling away which is to occur in the last days is indeed a major sign but is not the only sign that will signal the Tribulation is at hand. Paul goes on to say that the day of Christ will not occur until the son of perdition (the antichrist) is reveled. This too will occur prior to the Tribulation. Just who that person is would be purely conjecture at this point. I’d dearly love to point to a few I believe would make prime candidates. But I digress.

Remember, each of the disciples was shocked when Judas turned on Jesus Christ. They knew him, or they thought they knew him. Judas was with them and Jesus night and day for three years. Yet Judas is the one who betrayed Jesus. Even the most passionate professing Christians can turn on Jesus. Many have already done so.

Apostasy in English means to renounce a thing such as faith. But the way the Greek word is used it actually means to forsake or to revolt/rebel against a thing and in this case it means to rebel against the truth of Jesus Christ. What we are told to expect is that the falling away in the last days will not just continue progressing as in the past, but it will become a substantial movement. This apostasy may well be led by the denominational churches – those embracing the doctrines of men over God’s precepts.

Therefore, what can the adherents to faith in Christ come to expect from a populous that is “in mass” rejecting everything Jesus stands for? Persecution, trials, troubled times, hatred, condemnation from all fronts, and on it goes. Here in the US we have a sitting president who claims to be a Christian yet shows nothing but distain for those of us who diligently follow our God and Saviour, Jesus Christ. America’s current president purposely stands diametrically opposed to God at every turn. He was recently re-elected by a populous of very deceived individuals. As a result, Christians stand to lose more now than ever before in regards to our God given rights. If the Lord tarries then within the next four years we should see major signs of apostasy.

“And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed…” 2 Thessalonians 2:6 - 8. Most Bible scholars believe Paul is referring to the Holy Spirit as to the “who” which is withholding the explosion of wickedness upon the earth. The saints of Christ will be removed from earth prior to the revealing of the antichrist. Our attention as followers of Jesus Christ is not to be focused on that particular individual, but on those who are falling away. They are our mission field.

Who are they? They belong to many varying aspects of society. For example the fastest growing religion in the word is the religion of Islam; clearly here lies a huge segment of society which has already fallen away. All religions that deny the deity of Jesus Christ, all cults, the New Agers, the Spiritualists, those who contact the demonic spirit world; and anyone else aligned with any of the above are all a part of what the Bible speaks of as the “apostasia”. It won’t just be those who blatantly deny there is a God, but the falling away will involve all those who deny the death, burial, and resurrection of our God and Saviour, Jesus Christ.

Every year we, the Ekklesia of Christ, shrink in numbers as the “apostasia” grows. The overall general description of the last days’ congregation is described for us in the book of Revelation. “And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.” Revelation 3:7-8. The saints sojourning on earth just before Christ takes us home are those who Jesus is referring to in the above verses. In the original Greek the word for strength is “dynamis” and although it can mean strength such as in God’s “power” it can also mean strength as in “numbers”. Jesus can’t be referring to power such as the power of God or strength such as a mighty man’s strength because of the context of the verse. In the context of Revelation 3:8 the word “little” is used as a clarifier to the word strength. Little in the Greek is “mikros” and in this context it speaks of quantity: i.e. number, amount. Therefore Jesus must be referring to the ever shrinking numbers of His followers. The last days’ saints will be of little strength, in numbers that is, thus the falling away will have had a massive influence on this world’s populous.

“Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie;” Revelation 3:9. Who is it that says they are Jews? I’ll give you a hint. Their founder was Joseph Smith. Yes, Mormons. Don’t believe me? Do your own research, discover the facts for yourself. Mormons believe they are the lost tribes of the Israelites - Jews. Jesus says they are of the synagogue of Satan, He calls them liars. These, too, will be part of the falling away crowd as well as Jehovah’s Witnesses, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus and all the rest that deny the deity of Jesus Christ. But that’s not all.

There will be many professing Christians (in name only) who will also be included in the falling away crowd. “And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.” Revelation 3:14-15. These Laodiceans were not merely lacking in their love of Christ but they were so full of themselves they felt no need for a Saviour. Although they kept the name Christian they were not Christ’s possession. “So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.” Revelation 3:16. Jesus wasn’t merely unhappy with their lack of faith; these folks had no faith in the One who died for them. Therefore our Lord tells them He will vomit them out of His mouth, which in the Greek is even more descriptive than in our English. Jesus is pronouncing a judgment upon this apostate congregation. These folks are the same as those Jesus addresses in Matthew 7:21. Even though they performed many wonderful works in the name of Jesus Christ, He never knew them. They weren’t and aren’t His.

“I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.” Revelation 3:18. This is the clincher for the last days’ apostate congregations; they will not have the Holy Spirit sealed within them. They are not clothed in white raiment, their nakedness is their shame. These are “professing Christians” who don’t really know Jesus as Lord and Saviour. They, along with all the rest of the Christ rejecters, are blind to the truth and they will make up the multitudes of people who are falling away from the one true faith.

“Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.” Revelation 3:20. Jesus is pleading with these lost souls to open the door and allow Him in. That means He’s not in and among these apostates, but standing outside – outside of their hearts. They, just like all the rest of the Christ rejecters, are being admonished to let Him in before it’s too late. It will be easy to fall in line with these folks; they are quite adept at deceiving the masses.

There are currently massive amounts of people around this world who are part of the falling away movement, which is indicative of the last days. For the rest of us, it won’t be much longer now. Our wait is just about over. Jesus says “…hold fast till I come.” Revelation 2:25. Hold fast to what? “…the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.” Jude 1:3.

God bless you all,

Ron Graham
twotug@embarqmail.com
www.straitandnarrowministry.com
ron@straitandnarrowministry.com

All original scripture is “theopneustos” God breathed

#2
FresnoJoe

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:thumbsup:

Dragon's Breath

Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, "Indeed, has God said, 'You shall not eat from any tree of the garden '?" Genesis 3:1 (NASB)

Or God's Breath

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. 2 Timothy 3:16-17 (NIV)

Which One Will You Choose?

I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants, by loving the LORD your God, by obeying His voice, and by holding fast to Him; for this is your life and the length of your days, that you may live in the land which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them.” Deuteronomy 30:19-20 (NASB)

#3
rjp34652

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There are currently massive amounts of people around this world who are part of the falling away movement, which is indicative of the last days. For the rest of us, it won’t be much longer now. Our wait is just about over. Jesus says “…hold fast till I come.” Revelation 2:25. Hold fast to what? “…the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.” Jude 1:3.


I agree.

The Great Apostacy is upon us. The process of washing away the influence of the church is nearly complete.

The next item on the agenda is the establishment of a throne for a man of ancient names and titles.
This person will attempt to usurp the purposes of God on earth and to claim fully and officially the title of god of this world.
There will be no rapture, no fantastic escape from the wickedness that will be unleashed upon Israel, for at that point all of the wrath of the enemy will focus.

The great events soon to be seen will be wars and victories (and defeats) that will allow the man of sin to ascend his dark throne. In those days the last vestiges of liberty and truth and the tissue of righteousness that men possess will be swept away. Wisdom and her gifts will depart from the leaders of this world.

We are witnessing the last days of the whore of Babylon.
The harbingers of judgment are upon us.
Repentance and humility before the throne of the Almighty are the things God wants to hear.

If God does not judge America, then He owes Sodom and Gomorrah an apology.

but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

#4
Love is alive

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I do think we are experiencing the falling away right now. Apostacy is running rampant in the world today, look at all the nations engaging in antisemitism and churches that are more worried about the bottom line than the teachings of Jesus.

#5
Bader

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There are currently massive amounts of people around this world who are part of the falling away movement, which is indicative of the last days. For the rest of us, it won’t be much longer now. Our wait is just about over. Jesus says “…hold fast till I come.” Revelation 2:25. Hold fast to what? “…the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.” Jude 1:3.


I agree.

The Great Apostacy is upon us. The process of washing away the influence of the church is nearly complete.

The next item on the agenda is the establishment of a throne for a man of ancient names and titles.
This person will attempt to usurp the purposes of God on earth and to claim fully and officially the title of god of this world.
There will be no rapture, no fantastic escape from the wickedness that will be unleashed upon Israel, for at that point all of the wrath of the enemy will focus.

The great events soon to be seen will be wars and victories (and defeats) that will allow the man of sin to ascend his dark throne. In those days the last vestiges of liberty and truth and the tissue of righteousness that men possess will be swept away. Wisdom and her gifts will depart from the leaders of this world.

We are witnessing the last days of the whore of Babylon.
The harbingers of judgment are upon us.
Repentance and humility before the throne of the Almighty are the things God wants to hear.

If God does not judge America, then He owes Sodom and Gomorrah an apology.

but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

I agree with you an could add more... But I won't for now.

Edited by GoldenEagle, 04 January 2013 - 04:24 PM.
{{{ Edited out attack on Moderation Team. Please follow the ToS. }}}


#6
Tinky

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Here in the US we have a sitting president who claims to be a Christian yet shows nothing but distain for those of us who diligently follow our God and Saviour, Jesus Christ.



So very true!!! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

#7
Sonseeahray

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The "falling away" was not about Christianity at all. Paul was talking about the coming (in his day) "REBELLION" that was to occurr when the Jewish zealots violently began the war with Rome. Paul's words came to pass just 14 years after he wrote to the Thessolonians. 2Thess was written in 52AD and the Rebellion began in 66AD. The rebellion lasted 1,335 days or three and a half years. The 1,335 days started when Cestius Gallus retreated from Jerusalem in 66AD with the 12th legion until the war was over on the 3rd of Elul 70AD.

Edited by Sonseeahray, 02 January 2013 - 04:16 PM.


#8
allofgrace

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The "falling away" was not about Christianity at all. Paul was talking about the coming (in his day) "REBELLION" that was to occurr when the Jewish zealots violently began the war with Rome. Paul's words came to pass just 14 years after he wrote to the Thessolonians. 2Thess was written in 52AD and the Rebellion began in 66AD. The rebellion lasted 1,335 days or three and a half years. The 1,335 days started when Cestius Gallus retreated from Jerusalem in 66AD with the 12th legion until the war was over on the 3rd of Elul 70AD.


If that was the falling away then v1 where it talks about Jesus coming back then has already happened, and the saints have already been gathered to Him, is that what you are saying? And when did the son of perdition sit in the temple and declare himself to be God?

2 Thess 2:1-4 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

#9
Sonseeahray

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The "falling away" was not about Christianity at all. Paul was talking about the coming (in his day) "REBELLION" that was to occurr when the Jewish zealots violently began the war with Rome. Paul's words came to pass just 14 years after he wrote to the Thessolonians. 2Thess was written in 52AD and the Rebellion began in 66AD. The rebellion lasted 1,335 days or three and a half years. The 1,335 days started when Cestius Gallus retreated from Jerusalem in 66AD with the 12th legion until the war was over on the 3rd of Elul 70AD.


If that was the falling away then v1 where it talks about Jesus coming back then has already happened, and the saints have already been gathered to Him, is that what you are saying? And when did the son of perdition sit in the temple and declare himself to be God?

2 Thess 2:1-4 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.


Absolutely not. Paul is saying that the Lord will not come again until God has judged Israel. There were a series of events spoken of by Paul, Jesus, and Daniel that must be fulfilled before the return of Jesus - who told them he was coming "immediately after the tribulation of those days."

2 Thess 2:1-4 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.


Reprise:
Paul was not talking about a Christian apostasy somewhere out in the 21st century. He was talking about the coming destruction of Jerusalem which we know today happened just 14 years after he wrote 2 Thess.
It was not a falling away from Christianity, but rather the beginning of the "rebellion" against Rome. After the "rebellion" started it was then that the terrorist leader Eleazar ben Simon took over the Temple and desecrated it worse then it ever had been in history. The word translated “falling away” can and often is translated "Rebellion.” The prophesies of Jesus, Paul, and Daniel all fit together very well when you overlay them on top of the historical record of the fall of Jerusalem by Josephus. This passage written by Paul came to pass just 14 years after it was written in 52AD.(66AD)

The sequence of events were as follows...
  • The restrainer was taken away – Shekinah Glory seen leaving the Temple in 66AD.
  • The rebellion began – Temple sacrifice is stopped for Rome - Eleazar ben Ananus
  • The terrorists took over the Temple – Eleazar ben Simon uses it for a fortress
  • Agrippa II sent an army to put down the rebellion (failed)
  • Nero sent Cestius Gallus with the 12th legion to quell the rebellion
  • Army surrounding city (12th legion)
  • Man of sin is in the Temple - Eleazar ben Simon
  • Cestius fled for no known reason on Chesvan 5th 66AD
  • Terrorists pursued Cestius – destroyed most of 12th legion
  • Terrorists were gone after Cestius for 8 days
  • Christians may have had only 8 days to flee Judea and the city.
  • Christians fled to Pella according to tradition
  • Daniel's clock began on Cheshvan 4th Cestius was engaging the terrorists in the Temple
  • 1,290 days later the daily sacrifice failed (From Cheshvan 5th 66AD to Tammuz 17th 70AD)
  • 45 days later the terrorists surrendered to Titus (1,335 days) (Elul 3rd 70AD)
  • Everyone was shocked and surprised when the bulk of the terrorists surrendered from the fortress of Herod
  • God had cut the siege short so the elect could survive
  • The city and the Temple were then totally destroyed by the Roman army and Jewish prisioners of war.
  • Only one structure remained – the fortress Antonia – now today errently called the "Temple Mount." No the real "Temple Mount” was totally destroyed - just like Jesus said it would be.

So the apostasy talk popular on sites like this is really in the past and did not reference the Christian community. It was the rebellion of the Jews which officially began when Eleazar ben Ananus caused the daily sacrifice for Rome to end in the Temple. Apostasy has been in the church for 2,000 years now and always will be. Worse today – yes if only for the fact that the world population has grown from 4-500 million in Jesus day to 7 billion today.

Apostasy in the Church – yes, but in the case of 2 Thess that is not what Paul was talking to.

Edited by Sonseeahray, 03 January 2013 - 11:25 AM.


#10
Montana Marv

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To All, Son

Your time line falls short and is therefore all wrong. The Shekinah Glory left the tempe in 33 AD when Christ died on the Cross, The veil split from top to bottom, We now have direct access to the Holy of Holies. This was in 33 AD not 66 AD.

The sequence of events were as follows...
  • The restrainer was taken away – Shekinah Glory seen leaving the Temple in 66AD. False, the Shekinah Glory left the temple with the death of Christ, the veil split.
The rebellion began – Temple sacrifice is stopped for Rome - Eleazar ben Ananus
  • The terrorists took over the Temple – Eleazar ben Simon uses it for a fortress
  • Agrippa II sent an army to put down the rebellion (failed)
  • Nero sent Cestius Gallus with the 12th legion to quell the rebellion
  • Army surrounding city (12th legion)
  • Man of sin is in the Temple - Eleazar ben Simon Not the Man of Sin, for the Shekinah Glory left temple in 33 AD. Not 66 AD
  • Cestius fled for no known reason on Chesvan 5th 66AD
  • Terrorists pursued Cestius – destroyed most of 12th legion
  • Terrorists were gone after Cestius for 8 days
  • Christians may have had only 8 days to flee Judea and the city.
  • Christians fled to Pella according to tradition Christians were already in Phillipi, Corninth, Turkey, Asia Minor.
  • Daniel's clock began on Cheshvan 4th Cestius was engaging the terrorists in the Temple
  • 1,290 days later the daily sacrifice failed (From Cheshvan 5th 66AD to Tammuz 17th 70AD)
  • 45 days later the terrorists surrendered to Titus (1,335 days) (Elul 3rd 70AD)
  • Everyone was shocked and surprised when the bulk of the terrorists surrendered from the fortress of Herod
  • God had cut the siege short so the elect could survive Many of the elect were already sent into captiviy as were the Jews.
  • The city and the Temple were then totally destroyed by the Roman army and Jewish prisioners of war.
  • Only one structure remained – the fortress Antonia – now today errently called the "Temple Mount." No the real "Temple Mount” was totally destroyed - just like Jesus said it
  • would be.
In Christ
Montana Marv

#11
He giveth more grace

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I don't know about the article, the Church is being downsized due to the apostasy? Don't believe it - "the gates of hell shall not prevail".

#12
He giveth more grace

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IMO, the falling away involves those things (persons) that "can be moved", like Professor's not Possessor's and like the ecumenical religiosity of religionist's (the lost world playing church). I believe those who are in the Vine will not go into apostasy or fall away. God will have a separation and he will purge his church of the world.

Hebrews 12:26b-27

Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

#13
GoldenEagle

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As a reminder, please post replies as a discussion with questions. Teaching on WCF is only allowed to be done by those in the ministry (Worthy Watchmen, Worthy Chat Servants, and Servants).

God bless,
GE

#14
bryanw92

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The Methodist took a vote that almost passed to allow gay Pastors. The largest denomination has had the light turned on. They were corrupt long before. How does a whole denomination come to such a confused and dark place to even consider such a vote? It almost passed, now come out from her people.

It would be akin to taking a vote one Sunday morning to see if my Congregation wanted to practice black magic or have me preach about Jesus. I tell you the truth, If I was sitting there and listening and such a vote suggested, I am out the door as fast as possible, never to come back.


The vote did not almost pass. It was defeated by a comfortable margin. Back in June, when we were having our quadrennial General Conference, millions of United Methodists watched this vote with great fear. We watched and waited because, if the church had voted to allow gay pastors and gay weddings, the church would have split immediately. The rank-and-file membership of the UMC is largely not in favor of such evils, but the leadership above the local church level is more in touch with "social gospel" than they are the real Gospel.

The forces of the gay agenda used every parliamentary trick in the book, and when they all failed, they flooded the delegate floor with protestors but the leaders of the Conference gavelled them down and even suspended the conference until order was restored. They forces of the gay agenda have done this every 4 years for 40 years and we have beat them back each time.

It is a shame that we have to deal with this every GC because it distracts us from the real work of Christ in the world, but our rules allow for motions to be made. It is a big part of our denomination's history. It doesn't prove us all to be apostate, but it really shows that we are alive and still fighting the good fight. The same weaknesses in our Book of Discipline that allow these votes to come up, also empower the local church to operate free of the dictates of our liberal "social gospel" leadership, so everything balanaces out in the end.

But the day we vote to allow it, I will sadly give up the UMC forever and find a new church home.

#15
bryanw92

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bryanw92

60% against, 40% for. Almost half.

1Co 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
1Co 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
1Co 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

You don't have to deal with it, Leadership is corrupt to even consider such a vote. It's extremely sad because of the great foundation the Methodist have laid. Book or no book the vote should have never been taken. The Word of God is the only book.

It would had been better if the vote passed, and separate who's the Lord's and who is not. Now all the gay agenda is hidden again in many Methodist churches corrupting here some and there some, the people finding God and a church unaware. I would rather have my enemy in the light where I can see them.

1Co_4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

This vote will pass eventually though. It has to, as God will have to purge those that are his from them that are not. If you stay and believe, then also believe for wisdom, how to help, what to do. Don't get down though, once it's separated and light given, every man will praise God.

Jesus Is Lord.


I don't believe that it will ever pass. 60/40 is a difference of 20 percent. That's big considering that the only people who vote are big-shot delegates, hand-picked by Bishops and District Superintendents.

We look at the damage done to the Presbyterians, Episcopals, and Lutherans and the Methodist congregations are beginning to push back at our leaders' leftist excesses. We have a vital and growing Revival Movement within the UMC that is exciting and encouraging, and so far, most people don't even know it exists! Once it breaks out, there's not going to be any stopping it. We lost a lot of our fire when we decided to be the church of affluent middle America in the middle of the 20th century. Now, we're the church of Koreans and Africans who are so alive with the Spirit that flesh can barely contain it, and we are the church of people who are slipping from affluence to poverty in Obama's new America. These are people will purge the leaders long before the leaders purge them! As a local congregation leader, I can see it in my own people. Our biggest problem is to get over the fear of going all-out for Jesus. We've been the white shirt and tie denomination for too long and we don't know how to walk down a dirt road in sandals spreading the gospel. We'll get it back long before the gays can rip us apart. God is with us.

#16
bryanw92

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The gates of Hell, shall not prevail. Stay encouraged!! My hope is that the Gifts of the Spirit start operating and many Methodist Churches. Where the Power of the Spirit of God is, Satan don't stand a chance. The people seem a bit bolder also, as many hang off the rafters speaking in tongues. (Joking)

Jesus Is Lord.


I wish!! We could use a little bit of Holy Rolling!

#17
Sonseeahray

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Your time line falls short and is therefore all wrong. The Shekinah Glory left the tempe in 33 AD when Christ died on the Cross, The veil split from top to bottom, We now have direct access to the Holy of Holies. This was in 33 AD not 66 AD.


The sequence of events were as follows...
The restrainer was taken away – Shekinah Glory seen leaving the Temple in 66AD. False, the Shekinah Glory left the temple with the death of Christ, the veil split.


Here's how I see it. 2 Thess was written in 52AD. here is what Paul said at that time...
2 Thessalonians 2:6-7 (NASB)
6 And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed.
7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.

This was written 22 years after the crucifixion and Paul is saying that the restrainer has not yet been lifted. It was another 14 years before it was lifted and in only a matter of weeks the violence started unabated.

Man of sin is in the Temple - Eleazar ben Simon Not the Man of Sin, for the Shekinah Glory left temple in 33 AD. Not 66 AD



Already answered above.

Christians fled to Pella according to tradition Christians were already in Phillipi, Corninth, Turkey, Asia Minor.



This passage refers only to the Christians in Judea and Jerusalem and not to the entire Church at large. These are the ones addressed by Jesus in the Olivet discourse.

God had cut the siege short so the elect could survive Many of the elect were already sent into captiviy as were the Jews.



Not sure that I understand this statement. Elect is a general label for God's people for all time. There are people yet to be born that are God's elect. Daniel said it was for the elect's (600 years in his future) sake that God would shorten this great tribulation – and he did with the surprising early surrender of the terrorists in the fortress of Herod.

Granted that not all of them surrendered but they posed little threat so much so that Titus disbanded his forces and the remaining forces did the mopping up. Also the surrendering Zealots were surrendering in order to stage another attack on the Romans but it was unsuccessful.

The obediant Christian elect had departed the city in 66AD – so then who are the elect that Daniel was referring to? It was the group of people who had come to God and accepted his salvation during the tribulation of those days – 66-70AD. This tribulation was because of the love of God and an absolute last ditch effort to bring people into his Kingdom.

#18
Montana Marv

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Sonseeahray

It all goes back to Dan 9:24 - Seventy sevens are decreed for your people (Daniels people Israel) and your holy city (Dainels holy city Jerusalem) to: .... The first 69 weeks were all about Israel, the 70th week is all about Israel. Matt 24:15 is the direct reference from Daniel 9:27. Abomination that cause desolation. This departure from Judea has nothing to due with Christians, but only to those of Israel, Daniels people.

And again the Shekinah Glory left the Temple (Holy of Holies) in 33 AD, at Christs death when the veil split from top to bottom opening up the Holy of Holies to the inner court. The High Priest no longer had access to the Holy of Holies, because Jesus Christ became our High Priest. The Holy of Holies became empty when the veil was split. No more Shekinah Glory residing there.

This is basic Church Doctrine. For if the Shekinah Glory still resided in the Holy of Holies in the Temple beyond 33 AD, Christ was then not our High Priest. Christians would then need to go through the Jewish High Priest, Which is not Biblical.

In Christ
Montana Marv

Edited by Montana Marv, 07 January 2013 - 10:55 AM.


#19
rollinTHUNDER

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It all goes back to Dan 9:24 - Seventy sevens are decreed for your people (Daniels people Israel) and your holy city (Dainels holy city Jerusalem) to: .... The first 69 weeks were all about Israel, the 70th week is all about Israel. Matt 24:15 is the direct reference from Daniel 9:27. Abomination that cause desolation. This departure from Judea has nothing to due with Christians, but only to those of Israel, Daniels people.

Hi Marv,

I certainly agree that Daniel's descendants are Jews, but it would be very difficult, if not impossible to prove your statement above. Christ and His disciples were Daniel's descendants and the first to be converted almost 2000 years ago. But there are still Christians living in Israel today, and the ones that will escape are the ones that heed His words to flee to the mountains when they see the abomination of desolation. The secular Jews will not be following His commands or studying His word, but those who are will know what time it is.

#20
He giveth more grace

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Sonseeahray

It all goes back to Dan 9:24 - Seventy sevens are decreed for your people (Daniels people Israel) and your holy city (Dainels holy city Jerusalem) to: .... The first 69 weeks were all about Israel, the 70th week is all about Israel. Matt 24:15 is the direct reference from Daniel 9:27. Abomination that cause desolation. This departure from Judea has nothing to due with Christians, but only to those of Israel, Daniels people.

And again the Shekinah Glory left the Temple (Holy of Holies) in 33 AD, at Christs death when the veil split from top to bottom opening up the Holy of Holies to the inner court. The High Priest no longer had access to the Holy of Holies, because Jesus Christ became our High Priest. The Holy of Holies became empty when the veil was split. No more Shekinah Glory residing there.

This is basic Church Doctrine. For if the Shekinah Glory still resided in the Holy of Holies in the Temple beyond 33 AD, Christ was then not our High Priest. Christians would then need to go through the Jewish High Priest, Which is not Biblical.

In Christ
Montana Marv


It all goes back to Dan 9:24 - Seventy sevens are decreed for your people (Daniels people Israel) and your holy city (Dainels holy city Jerusalem) to: .... The first 69 weeks were all about Israel, the 70th week is all about Israel. Matt 24:15 is the direct reference from Daniel 9:27. Abomination that cause desolation. This departure from Judea has nothing to due with Christians, but only to those of Israel, Daniels people.

Hi Marv,

I certainly agree that Daniel's descendants are Jews, but it would be very difficult, if not impossible to prove your statement above. Christ and His disciples were Daniel's descendants and the first to be converted almost 2000 years ago. But there are still Christians living in Israel today, and the ones that will escape are the ones that heed His words to flee to the mountains when they see the abomination of desolation. The secular Jews will not be following His commands or studying His word, but those who are will know what time it is.

I see nothing about Marv's statement except, I think, that the Shekinah left Judah a lot earlier than 33AD. The parting of the veil has nothing to do with the glory departing, but that the way to God is now open to all who go through Jesus Christ.

Where do you, 'rollinTHUNDER', get that Christ and his disciples were Daniel's descendants? That is strange doctrine to me.




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