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The Falling Away From The Faith

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#1
Hobbes

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2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

 

 

That is our faith we are to examine ourselves by.

 

2 Corinthians 11:Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me. 2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. 3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

 

Matthew 12:39But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

 

The falling away from the faith would involve moving away from relating to the Bridegroom by chasing after spirits thinking they are the Holy Spirit to receive again after a sign;  even a sign of tongues which comes with no interpretation, but is babbling nonsense.

 

Whenever a supernatural encounter occurs, many do not test the spirits but glory after them as the shift focusses on the "Holy Spirit" in worship and then addresses "Him" to fall on them "again" to receive after a sign, causing many to fall down and have confusion in the church service.

 

Proverbs 25:26 A righteous man falling down before the wicked is as a troubled fountain, and a corrupt spring. 27 It is not good to eat much honey: so for men to search their own glory is not glory. 28 He that hath no rule over his own spirit is like a city that is broken down, and without walls.

 

1 Corinthians 14: 32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. 33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

 

1 Timothy 4:1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

 

You cannot receive the Holy Spirit "again" when He is already within you by faith in Jesus Christ.  This is the hypocrisey that many believers that have gone astray are overlooking.  They acknowledge that He is in them but yet they ask for Him to receive Him again as if they had not.


Edited by Hobbes, 20 August 2014 - 07:35 AM.

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#2
Hobbes

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Once a believer receives Jesus Christ, there is no more filling of the Spirit to hunger after.

 

His promise:

 

Matthew 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

 

How to receive that promise:

 

John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

 

The result of that promise:

 

Matthew 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

 

And why after having received Christ Jesus, we can walk in Him complete in Christ.

 

Colossians 2:5 For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ. 6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: 7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. 8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

 

So there is only one drink of the Spirit that we all can share the same testimony of having been baptized into by.

 

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

 

So there is no asking for the Holy Spirit to receive again unless we testify falsely that the Father gave us something else the first time for knocking at the door of Jesus.

 

Luke 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. 10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. 11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? 12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? 13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?


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#3
Hobbes

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We are to share the same testimony of how we had received the promise of the Spirit by faith in Jesus Christ and not by sight since signs were to serve unbelievers;  not the believers..

 

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.....6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

 

Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. 15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,

 

Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith....26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

There can be no other good report nor any other hope of our calling nor any other gospel to preach.

 

Ephesians 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

 

There is no other baptism with the Holy Spirit with evidence of tongues.  The "slain in the Spirit", the Toronto Blessings, the Pensacola Outpouring, and the "holy laughter" movement and any other movement of the "Spirit" that puts the emphasis on the Holy Spirit to receive after a sign is not of God. This is the falling away from the faith and believers need to go before that throne of grace for help in repenting from by returning to their first love, shun vain & profane babblings and pray normally, and chase no more after those spirits for a sign to be filled when we are filled by faith in Jesus Christ as a testimony that we are saved so we can testify that Jesus Christ is indeed our Saviour.


Edited by Hobbes, 20 August 2014 - 08:02 AM.

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#4
Last Daze

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We are to share the same testimony of how we had received the promise of the Spirit by faith in Jesus Christ and not by sight since signs were to serve unbelievers;  not the believers..

 

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.....6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

 

Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. 15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,

 

Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith....26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

There can be no other good report nor any other hope of our calling nor any other gospel to preach.

 

Ephesians 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

 

There is no other baptism with the Holy Spirit with evidence of tongues.  The "slain in the Spirit", the Toronto Blessings, the Pensacola Outpouring, and the "holy laughter" movement and any other movement of the "Spirit" that puts the emphasis on the Holy Spirit to receive after a sign is not of God. This is the falling away from the faith and believers need to go before that throne of grace for help in repenting from by returning to their first love, shun vain & profane babblings and pray normally, and chase no more after those spirits for a sign to be filled when we are filled by faith in Jesus Christ as a testimony that we are saved so we can testify that Jesus Christ is indeed our Saviour.

 

Is this in the right forum?


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#5
Hobbes

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See at this link how churches can limit the invasion of seducing spirits in the worship place, and how the Holy Spirit will lead us in worship as a shared testimony.

 

http://www.worthychr...ts-our-worship/


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#6
Hobbes

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We are to share the same testimony of how we had received the promise of the Spirit by faith in Jesus Christ and not by sight since signs were to serve unbelievers;  not the believers..

 

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.....6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

 

Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. 15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,

 

Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith....26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

There can be no other good report nor any other hope of our calling nor any other gospel to preach.

 

Ephesians 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

 

There is no other baptism with the Holy Spirit with evidence of tongues.  The "slain in the Spirit", the Toronto Blessings, the Pensacola Outpouring, and the "holy laughter" movement and any other movement of the "Spirit" that puts the emphasis on the Holy Spirit to receive after a sign is not of God. This is the falling away from the faith and believers need to go before that throne of grace for help in repenting from by returning to their first love, shun vain & profane babblings and pray normally, and chase no more after those spirits for a sign to be filled when we are filled by faith in Jesus Christ as a testimony that we are saved so we can testify that Jesus Christ is indeed our Saviour.

 

Is this in the right forum?

 

 Hi Last Daze,

 

Yes, since it concerns prophecy regarding the falling away from the faith ( 1 Timothy 4:1-2 ) which is to occur before the pre tribulational rapture which is why God has to judge His House first ( 1 Peter 4:17-19 ), and then He will come back with the raptured saints to deal with Satan & his armies.

 

2 Thessalonians 2:1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first,...

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

 

 

Paul rebukes the movements of the "Spirit" today by reminding believers how we ahd received the sanctification of the Spirit and the belief of the truth by the hearing of the gospel of Jesus Christ, and so there is cause to present this prophecy to the forum so that believers that hear, may repent, and be ready by His grace & by His help, in keeping their eyes on the Bridegroom for He is coming soon. 


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#7
Parker1

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You cannot receive the Holy Spirit "again" when He is already within you by faith in Jesus Christ.  This is the hypocrisey that many believers that have gone astray are overlooking.  They acknowledge that He is in them but yet they ask for Him to receive Him again as if they had not.

They do this simply as a reassurance for themselves. It is not out of hypocrisy, but out of ignorance. Many people pray for salvation over and over again, because the enemy has placed in their mind the idea that because they sin - even unwillingly - that they are not truly saved. He does this to take away the joy that Christians are promised through Christ. He knows that he has already lost us for good, so his only means of attack is through fear and ignorance. That is why the Truth of the Once Saved Always Saved doctrine is so important for everyone to understand. GOD has placed His Holy Spirit within each and every Christian as a guarantee that He will personally maintain our salvation and that no one (not even ourselves) in Heaven, on Earth, or under the Earth can remove us from His hand.


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#8
Tera

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I agree that once saved Always saved. God is not an Indian giver. Once u receive him u are sealed forever even if u backslide u r still his! I don't understand how some Christians can believe u can loose your salvation! Weak faith I guess. I myself have backslid n I can tell u every single day god was chastising me, pulling me back, moving the sinful ppl out of my life! He fights for us, for we r NOT our own! Praise Jesus! We must return to our maker less we live in misery. The only happiness for the Christian is when they abide in Christ. Non the less, once saved Always saved!!!!
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#9
Hobbes

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For those believers that think that the damnation in 2 Thessalonians 2:12 is referring to loss of salvation, think no more in that way.  I understand that perception because of verse 10 about being saved, but this was addressing the falling away from the faith and by it to avoid the great tribulation.  This is what believers are to be warned about today to be saved from. 

 

The damnation is losing crowns and not attending the Marriage Supper by being left behind.  Once that door is shut, that reward of that first inheritance of being of the firstfruits can never be had again so in that sense, it is a damnation, and in respect to the falling away from the faith, unless the believers that have gone astray repent by His help and by His grace, they will not be saved from being left behind to witness the fire coming on the earth and the coming great tribulation.

 

If anyone doubts this:  read on to the next chapter as Paul addresses those wicked & unreasonable men that have not faith that do not follow after the traditions taught of us that are disorderly as they are in those movements of the "Spirit".

 

2 Thessalonians 3:1Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you: 2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith. 3 But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil. 4 And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you. 5 And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ. 6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us. 7 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;.....14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. 15 Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

 

So even here, Paul still acknowledges those astray as still saved because they are still brothers. 

 

This is why excommunication is taught and supposed to be practised in churches to lead believers that sin or have gone astray to repentance to welcome back into the fold, because if the church does not do it, God will at the pre tribulational rapture event to receive them later after the great tribulation.  Just as our confidence is in Jesus Christ as our Good Shepherd to keep us from falling and to present us faultless, we can have confidence that He will finish His work in those unrepentant saints that gets left behind. 

 

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

 

2 Timothy 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

 

Because of the falling away from the faith, God is judging His House first to restore the wayward and unrepentant saints back to the path of righteousness for His name's sake because He really is the Good Shepherd.

 

Matthew 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. 12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? 13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. 14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

 

According to His words,  I thank Him that I believe He is going to get those saints that went astray that got left behind for they have been bought with a rpice and sealed as His.

 

1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.


Edited by Hobbes, 20 August 2014 - 02:49 PM.

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#10
firestormx

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John 20:22

And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.

 

The above happened after the Resurrection but before the ascension of Jesus.

 

Acts 2:1-4

When the day of Pentecost arrived, they were all together in one place. And suddenly there came from heaven a sound like a mighty rushing wind, and it filled the entire house where they were sitting. And divided tongues as of fire appeared to them and rested[a] on each one of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance

 

The above verses in Acts happened after the ascension of Jesus. So why did the Apostles receive the Holy Spirit twice after the resurrection?

 

 

 

  If God is not a respecter of persons, then why shouldn't/can't people seek the same that the Apostles had including what happened to them on the day of Pentecost, tongues and all? Also, remember, On the day of Pentecost they were mocked then also. Be careful what you label as false just because YOU don't agree with it.

 

Firestormx


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#11
Jesse

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I agree that once saved Always saved. God is not an Indian giver. Once u receive him u are sealed forever even if u backslide u r still his! I don't understand how some Christians can believe u can loose your salvation! Weak faith I guess. I myself have backslid n I can tell u every single day god was chastising me, pulling me back, moving the sinful ppl out of my life! He fights for us, for we r NOT our own! Praise Jesus! We must return to our maker less we live in misery. The only happiness for the Christian is when they abide in Christ. Non the less, once saved Always saved!!!!

Tera.

 

Who decides who is saved and who is not?

Is it not God?

Whom can say who is born again or not?

is it not God?

Why are we placing ourselves in that position to decide, who is and who is not saved or born again?

Why will there be many so called born again christians to fall away?

Once born again;can one be unborn again? and reborn again?

Must understand what born again and saved truly is.

This is used to sweet talk the flock.

 

jesse.


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#12
Greg Bradley

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Hi Firestormx,

 

You asked a very valid question concerning John 20:22, and it brings up some interesting points about God's Truth.  In the Gospel according to John:

Jesus answered and said unto him (Nicodemus), "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." (John 3:3).

 

The Kingdom of God is everything that God IS.  That would include the fact that Jesus is God.  Anyone who is not born-again cannot see that Jesus is God.  This brings up a question:  Did the disciples at any point during Jesus' earthly ministry know that Jesus was God?  The final disciple to physical see Jesus in His resurrected body was doubting Thomas.  Thomas was not around for the John 20:22 experience.  But later Jesus appeared to Thomas:  

Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. (John 20:27-28) 

 

Thomas had to be born-again in order to know that Jesus was God and be able to make that statement.  When did Thomas become born-again?  Jesus answers that question for us in John:

"Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit." (John 3:7-8)

 

It stands to reason that all the disciples were already born-again before the John 20:22 experience.  Luke tells us:

And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high. (Luke 24:49)

 

We now have the context of John 20:22 being explained by Luke 24:49.  The Bible explains itself quite often.  Jesus was giving a prophecy, not concerning being born-again as a first infilling of the Holy Spirit, but rather as the receiving of empowerment by the Holy Spirit.  The point is that the Holy Spirit has multiple functions in our lives.  You could look upon the breathing of Jesus upon his disciples as a sealing of the promise to come.  So, to answer your question:  No, the disciples did not receive a twice infilling.  You could look at it as an activating of an extra function of the Holy Spirit.

 

As an additional note, you are right, God is not a respecter of persons, but He is sovereign to give or withhold anything from anyone's life and when He gives something to someone, it is always in His perfect timing for that particular person.  We can ask for all the gifts and empowerments of the Spirit, but God is wise to know what we need and what we can handle.  Every promise from God is conditional.  There is nothing that gives us entitlement to reach up into the heavenly and pull anything down to ourselves.  We are totally reliant upon God and His graciousness to bless us.  And believe me, He wants very, very much to bless us, if we'd only open our hearts fully to Him.

 

May God richly bless you, my brother in Jesus,

Agape,

Greg


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#13
firestormx

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Hi Firestormx,

  So, to answer your question:  No, the disciples did not receive a twice infilling.  You could look at it as an activating of an extra function of the Holy Spirit.

 

May God richly bless you, my brother in Jesus,

Agape,

Greg

I do appreciate the thoughtful response, however the bolded part contradicts what scripture states. In John and in Acts both the bible says they received the Holy Spirit. That's what the bible says, not me. I disagree with you. They couldn't have been born again before the Resurrection because Jesus had not been sacrificed for our sins yet. That's my point. first they received the Holy Spirit for salvation in John, and then was baptized in the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost that they might receive power from on high in the book of Acts. There is a difference between being filled and being baptized.

 

Firestormx


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#14
Greg Bradley

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Hello Firestormx,

 

I believe that we are saying the same thing, but apparently you do not like my usage of the word "Infilling".  What I mean by infilling is the depositing of the Holy Spirit for our new birth, a depositing of God's Spirit that never leaves us while we are here on this earth.  Obviously, a second infilling is never needed.  Baptism in the Holy Spirit, is a different type of manifestation of the same One Spirit of God. So, I think we are saying the same thing, but perhaps I have misunderstood your original question of  "So why did the Apostles receive the Holy Spirit twice after the resurrection?"  I took that question to mean that you were wondering about if the disciples got a double born-again experience. If I am being confusing to you, please rephrase your question to clarify it for me, ok?  If you were asking the question rhetorically, meaning that it should be obvious that there is a difference between the two receptions of the Holy Spirit, then I apologize that I did not recognize that.  I would like to clear this up, if you don't mind responding to this reply.

 

Thank you,

Always with Agape,

Greg


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#15
firestormx

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Hello Firestormx,

 

I believe that we are saying the same thing, but apparently you do not like my usage of the word "Infilling".  What I mean by infilling is the depositing of the Holy Spirit for our new birth, a depositing of God's Spirit that never leaves us while we are here on this earth.  Obviously, a second infilling is never needed.  Baptism in the Holy Spirit, is a different type of manifestation of the same One Spirit of God. So, I think we are saying the same thing, but perhaps I have misunderstood your original question of  "So why did the Apostles receive the Holy Spirit twice after the resurrection?"  I took that question to mean that you were wondering about if the disciples got a double born-again experience. If I am being confusing to you, please rephrase your question to clarify it for me, ok?  If you were asking the question rhetorically, meaning that it should be obvious that there is a difference between the two receptions of the Holy Spirit, then I apologize that I did not recognize that.  I would like to clear this up, if you don't mind responding to this reply.

 

Thank you,

Always with Agape,

Greg

I think your right that we are saying the same thing. Yes, your usage of the word infilling is what through me off. I didn't ask the question very well either. I thought you were saying the 12 apostles were born again before the crucifixion and resurrection. Meaning they were saved, born again without the need for Christ to pay the penalty for our sins, like there was another way to get saved. Yes, I was also hoping people would see it was rhetorical and that there is a difference between the 2 receptions of the Holy Spirit. I should have just said it bluntly. My apologies. I just was trying to show in opposition to the original post that there is a difference between the 2 receptions of the Holy Spirit and that just because there is an overflow of the Spirit of God at the initial baptism of the Holy Spirit manifested as Divine utterance that is not understood or maybe even mocked, doesn't mean it is not of God( Just like what happened at the day of Pentecost. ).

 

I Apologize to you for any misunderstanding.

God bless you

Firestormx

Joseph


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#16
Parker1

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Tera.

 

Why will there be many so called born again christians to fall away?

jesse.

 

Because they were never born again. If GOD has written the believer's name in the Lamb's Book of Life (the Church), wouldn't He have made a mistake by writing it there in the first place if a person can lose their salvation? Isn't GOD perfect? Isn't GOD omniscient? Isn't GOD omnipotent? Is a human being more powerful than He? An Angel? Satan? Who than can snatch one of us out of His hand? Who then can cause The Shepherd (Jesus) to loose even one of His Sheep? You? Me? Who?


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#17
Jesse

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Tera.

 

Why will there be many so called born again christians to fall away?

jesse.

 

Because they were never born again. If GOD has written the believer's name in the Lamb's Book of Life (the Church), wouldn't He have made a mistake by writing it there in the first place if a person can lose their salvation? Isn't GOD perfect? Isn't GOD omniscient? Isn't GOD omnipotent? Is a human being more powerful than He? An Angel? Satan? Who than can snatch one of us out of His hand? Who then can cause The Shepherd (Jesus) to loose even one of His Sheep? You? Me? Who?

 

This born again thing is a big misunderstanding,and so is being saved.

The pastors and priests have been buttering and sugaring the flock.

And they themselves dont know.

Jesus said: when you are born OF THE SPIRIT.YOU ARE SPIRIT.(physically).

If the born again thing is true;then we are amongst many saints.

Anyone here claiming to be a saint?

 

jesse.


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#18
Greg Bradley

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To all my brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus,

 

I'm going to say some things that will rock your understandings of "Falling away", "Born-again", "Salvation", and "Eternal Life".  What I'm hearing in this chat thread so far are the typical notions of receiving Christ to become born again and because you said the "sinner's prayer", you are saved and have eternal life and you can never lose your salvation because God won't allow it to happen.  There are many assumptions within this last sentence and Biblical evidence dispels those assumptions. 

Because this is a multiple topic subject and because all of the concepts in quotations are intertwined, if anyone is to understand what the concepts really mean, it is best to deal with one concept at a time.  So, I'm going to address the "Born-again" concept first.

 

I'll start off by saying, "Just because you are born-again, it doesn't mean you are automatically saved and automatically have eternal life."  Okay, I just ruffled a few feathers and some of you are now crying out, "Heresy!  This guy needs to be stoned to death!"  Well, I'm glad this is not Old Testament times - LOL.

Let's start with some Scripture: 

(Romans 3:10-18)

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes.

 

What is the Apostle Paul saying here in Romans?  He is describing our natural human state of being.  He is describing the human race that is in a fallen state because of Adam's sin in the Garden of Eve.  No one in a fallen state, without the direct intervention of God Himself touching that person, has the inclination to even seek God!!!  All of you reading this (and me included) were all born in a fallen state, having no desire toward God.  If you can accept this fact, then here's a question for you:   How could you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior in your fallen state?  Your natural inclination according to Romans 3:10-18 is to reject and resist God at every level.  Jesus gives us that answer in:

(John 6:44)

"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him…"

 

The word translated as 'draw' comes from a Greek word which more literally means 'drag'.  It puts a better understanding to heart when we read the more literal translation:  "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me drag him…"  It more accurately describes what our true condition was before accepting Jesus as our Lord and Savior.

 

(John 3:3-8)

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

 

Being 'born-again', 'born anew', 'born of the Spirit', they all mean the same thing, so let's not get hung up on which is the best wording.  The Greek most literal translation into English is 'born from above'.  The point that Jesus is making is that the Holy Spirit comes to enter us and how it happens should be of no concern to us.  The purpose of the Holy Spirit entering us as our new birth, is not to change our flesh, but to give us sight to see the Kingdom of God, and to give us an inclination to seek God.  The point that I'm making is that we all had to become born-again before we could see that Jesus is the Christ and God.  The Kingdom of God is everything that God IS, including Jesus being in and of that Kingdom.  The notion that we accept Jesus and then we become instantly born again does not comply with Scripture.  You were born-again before you ever came to accepting Jesus to be your Lord and God.

 

Okay, what does that have to do with "Falling away"?  If you can understand that being born-again is not by our choice, it is the sole discretion of God, the Father, who determines who will be born-again and when it will happen, then you can begin to understand that being born-again does not instantly make you 'saved', nor does it instantly give you 'eternal life'.  Being born-again is merely one step in a process of getting to the place of salvation and eternal life.  So, to answer the tough question, "Can a born-again person reject Jesus?"  The answer is yes, because that person despite being born-again has yet to accept Jesus.  "Can a born-again believer reject Jesus?"  Yes, again, because we still have our free-will even after saying the 'sinner's prayer'.  "Can a born-again believer throw away His salvation?"  Well, who said he was saved in the first place?  If you believe you are saved right now, every time you sin, you throw your salvation away, but by the grace of God and the forgiveness of Jesus and the prompting of the Holy Spirit, hopefully, you rebound in the hope.

 

As I mentioned, we are all in a process with regards to Salvation and Eternal Life.  In our human nature, which is still very much alive within us, we want to "know" that we have Eternal Life.  We don't like hanging in mid-air, so the well-meaning theologians try to convince us and themselves that through the cause and effect of saying the 'sinner's prayer', you are saved and have eternal life, but God has given us a better way for any assurance that is desired:

 

(John 14:21-23)

He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

 

Can you feel the manifest presence of God in your heart?  It is God's way of giving you a sure assurance that His promise of Eternal Life will be given to you.

 

For those of you who cannot feel God in your heart, don't be discouraged.  Not everyone will feel the manifest presence of God, because not everyone will reach this point in the process of salvation.  As long as you, as a believer, are seeking the Kingdom, God will continue to hold you in His hands and honor His promise of Salvation as you hold onto Him.  He will strengthen you with His Spirit when you need it.  Anyone who simply has a figurative relationship with God is in danger of falling away.  When those who think of themselves as Christians are confronted with persecution and the Mark of the Beast, those with figurative relationships will likely buckle and fall away.  But, those Christians who are strengthened by God's Spirit because their relationships are truly personal and intimate with God, they will stand in their Faith and not fall away.

 

My prayer for all of you is to experience John 14:21-23, if you have yet to experience what Jesus promises.  I can tell you from firsthand experience with our Lord, that He is faithful and He Loves us with so much graciousness, it goes beyond our comprehension.  Ask Him to show you His Love for you. 

 

In His Love,

Greg


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#19
Parker1

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Tera.

 

Why will there be many so called born again christians to fall away?

jesse.

 

Because they were never born again. If GOD has written the believer's name in the Lamb's Book of Life (the Church), wouldn't He have made a mistake by writing it there in the first place if a person can lose their salvation? Isn't GOD perfect? Isn't GOD omniscient? Isn't GOD omnipotent? Is a human being more powerful than He? An Angel? Satan? Who than can snatch one of us out of His hand? Who then can cause The Shepherd (Jesus) to loose even one of His Sheep? You? Me? Who?

 

This born again thing is a big misunderstanding,and so is being saved.

The pastors and priests have been buttering and sugaring the flock.

And they themselves dont know.

Jesus said: when you are born OF THE SPIRIT.YOU ARE SPIRIT.(physically).

If the born again thing is true;then we are amongst many saints.

Anyone here claiming to be a saint?

 

jesse.

 

I am. I am not perfect, by any means. But I am saved. I have been born both of water and of Spirit. I have been born again. I am neither Greek nor Jew. I am of a new race. I am in the family of GOD.

And I won't even respond to the false theology of one losing their salvation.


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#20
Jesse

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Parker1.

There is no need for name calling as a chtistian.

If a christian claims he has the spirit;He should walk by the spirit.

You should not be shaken;  if you are saved and born again.

 

Baptism in water is just a symbol of the real thing,which is baptism in the Holy spirit.

 When one is baptised in water;he had made a decision to follow Christ.

He is just enrering that door,but behind that door, is a long narrow path that he must follow.

A life time narrow path. Many have fallen off that path.The world has reclaimed him.

 

To claim that he is saved and born again is silly,because one can not claim the reward,before crossing the finish line.

One can not swim across troubled waters and scream: I am saved.

He is only saved when he has reached solid ground.

 

To be born again is a reward;and that comes when reward is due.

Jesus will come with His reward;we can not decide who will have that reward.

Only God knows who is worthy.

I know many will be upset to read this ,but not to reveal it to my brothers/sist, is also a sin.

The flock have been made drunk with  the  wine of the scribes.. 

 

Shalom.

 

jesse.


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