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My experience with Jehovah's Witnesses

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#1
OldEnglishSheepdog

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So, I've been having a lot of interactions with JWs for quite a while now and I wanted to share some of my experiences and the way I’ve found that’s most helpful in dealing with them.

 

A while ago some JWs came to my door and started asking their conversation-starting questions. I decided to cut to the chase and I asked them why they reject the idea that Jesus is Jehovah, even though He's said to be Jehovah in name, purpose, essence and action all throughout the Bible, but they do believe that He is the archangel Michael, even though that's found nowhere in scripture and even though Michael is never associated with any of the names for Jesus (The Work, Son of Man, Son of God, Saviour, etc.). They told me it was a very good question and they'd get back to me with the answer. That’s the last I heard from them.

 

So, a while later I noticed a booth the JWs set up right near my office. Since then I've regularly gone to speak with them, arranged sit-down sessions with them, emailed back and forth, etc. and have learned a lot about their assumptions and presuppositions that I believe will help in dealing with their proof-texting and circular reasoning. I’d like to share how I’ve learned to deal with them, as I’ve found this way to be most effective at getting to the point (Just a note, I like to use their translation to make my points, to demonstrate we’re not dealing with translation issues).

 

I usually start by saying that I respect what they’re trying to do by trying to lead people to what they think is the truth, but that 2 Cor 11:4 warns against accepting a Jesus other than the one given by scripture, and that  in Galatians 1:1-9 we’re warned that anyone who brings a false gospel is condemned, and that I can show them from the Bible that they are doing just that.

 

I then confirm with them that they believe that Jesus is a created being, based on the lack of the definite article in the Greek in John 1:1, which they translate “In the beginning the Word was with God and the Word was a god”. Just five passages later there is another instance of a missing definite article and they don’t translate that “a god”, so they’re hardly consistent in this standard, but nevertheless…

 

So, JW’s believe that Jesus is a created God, and yet in Hebrews 1:10 Jehovah says to the Son, “”At the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the works of your hand” (RNWT).

 

Then I like to point them to a suite of passages from Isaiah that state the following:

 

“I am Jehovah, That is my name; I give my glory to on one else (42:8) … Before me no God was formed, and after me there has been none. I am Jehovah and besides me there is no saviour (43:10-11) … I am the first and the last (44:6) … I am Jehovah, who made everything. I stretched out the heavens by myself, and I spread out the earth. Who was with me? (44:24) … I am Jehovah, and there is no one else. There is no god except me (45:5) I, Jehovah, have created [heavens and earth] (45: 8)… Is it not I, Jehovah? There is no other god but me; a righteous God and Saviour there is none besides me (45:21) I am God and there is no other. I am God and there is no one like Me (46:9)… I give my glory to no one else (48:11)… my own hand laid the foundation of the earth. And my right hand spread out the heavens (48:13).

 

So then I ask the following question: “If Jehovah created a god (John 1:1), through whom, by whom, for whom all things were made (Col. 1:15-16) and all things were made by his hand (Hebrews 1:8-10), how then can Jehovah say that He created all of creation by Himself and that there was no god present – that He was all alone, particularly in reference to any created gods with whom He would not share the glory of creation or salvation, when He created the heavens and the earth by Himself, with his own hands (Isaiah 42-48)?”

 

The JW invariably tries to explain away this dilemma in one of two ways: 1. They say that what Isaiah was trying to demonstrate was the difference between the Almighty God as eternal and therefore different from a created god; or, 2. They tell me that just as an architect can say that they have built a building even if they hire a contractor to actually do the construction, so too can Jehovah have created a god and created the heavens and the earth through that being.

 

The problem with the first point (the idea that what Isaiah was trying to demonstrate was the difference between the Almighty God as eternal and not a created god) is as follows:

 

The context of the passage doesn’t limit itself to speaking of Jehovah’s eternality. In these verses in Isaiah God’s character is starkly contrasted with the characteristics of the pagan pantheons of created gods that are part of a created order instead of transcendent of creation. These gods were therefore limited in scope not only in terms of their eternality but also of their power, and jurisdiction over creation and thereby scope of their glory.

 

So, while these passage shows that Jehovah is eternal, in contrast to the pagan pantheistic gods, in addition He alone created the heavens and the earth (44:24), He did it with His own hands (48:13), He alone is the saviour (43:10-11), and His glory in creation is shared with no one (48:11).

 

So, what this passage shows is that Jehovah is distinguishable from a created god in that He is:

  • Eternal;
  • Saviour;
  • Creator of the heavens and the earth with His own hands; and
  • Sharer of His glory of creation from the beginning with no one (particularly no created god, in context).

 

So, Jehovah is ruling out the possibility of other gods based on these criteria.

 

But the problem becomes that Jesus is described in scripture according to just those criterion.

 

Jehovah is distinguished from a created god because He is eternal, which is most concretely articulated by Jehovah stating that He is the “first and the last” (44:6), and yet the very same title of eternality is ascribed to Jesus twice in the book of Revelation, as seen here “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End… I, Jesus…” (Rev 22:13).

 

Jehovah is distinguished from a created god because He is the only saviour (Isaiah 43:10-11), and yet is Jesus is the saviour (2 Peter 3:18), and in fact Acts 4:12 states that “salvation is found in no one else” than Jesus.

 

Jehovah is distinguished from a created god because He alone created the heavens and earth with His own hands and yet Jesus is credited with doing that with his own hands (Hebrews 1:10).

 

Jehovah is distinguished from a created god because He shares His glory of creation from the beginning with no one and yet Jesus is credited with sharing the glory He had with the Father since before creation (John 17:5), and is counted worthy of Jehovah’s glory (Rev 5:13).

 

If applied consistently, their own objection leads to this syllogism that necessarily entails that Jesus is Jehovah:

 

  1. Jehovah is distinguishable from a created god because He alone is: eternal; saviour; creator; and worthy to be glorified.
  2. No created god can be eternal; saviour; creator; and worthy to be glorified.
  3. Jesus is: eternal; saviour; creator; and worthy to be glorified.
  4. Jesus is not a created god.
  5. Jesus is Jehovah.

 

The problem with the second point (the point that just as an architect can say that they have built a building, even if they hire a contractor to actually do the construction, so too can Jehovah have created a god and created the heavens and the earth through that being) is as follows:

 

An architect totally can claim to have built a building, even if they used a contractor for the construction. But if we carry over the comparison with what is actually said in Isaiah, we see how problematic it is to compare the two.

 

In Isaiah, it doesn’t just say that Jehovah created the heavens and the earth, it states and repeats that He created the heavens and the earth with His own hands and that he was alone when He did it, particularly in reference to any created god with whom He will not share the glory of either creation or salvation.

 

If an architect said that they were alone when they built a building, that they did not use any contractors but did all of the construction with their own hands because they would not share the glory in building with any contractors, and then it turned out that in fact they hired a contractor for the construction then they would be lying.

 

So, if Jehovah states that He created the heavens and the earth with His own hands, and that He was alone (particularly in reference to any created god), but also says that it was Jesus’ own hands that created the heavens and the earth, - Jehovah cannot be lying.

 

So, if Jehovah cannot be lying and He says Jesus created the heavens and earth with His own hands, and that Jehovah created the heavens and earth with His own hands and was alone when He did it with no formed god around, then Jesus is Jehovah.

 

So it’s exactly because of examples like this that really demonstrate how troublesome it is to try to reconcile JW theology to the passage in Isaiah, and we’re still left with the syllogism:

 

1.         Jehovah is distinguishable from a created god because He alone is: eternal; saviour; creator; and worthy to be glorified.

2.         No created god can be eternal; saviour; creator; and worthy to be glorified.

3.         Jesus is: eternal; saviour; creator; and worthy to be glorified.

4.         Jesus is not a created god.

5.         Jesus is Jehovah.

 

Inevitably at this point they try to claim that the Bible says that Jesus was created and point to Colossians 1:15-16 as proof. I find this particular passage is widely misinterpreted by JWs as though it says that Jesus is a created being.

 

The title firstborn has the Biblical precedent of denoting a title of primacy or pre-eminence which is transferable (as in the office of inheriting rights over property, as we see in David being called the firstborn of Jesse, Ephraim being the firstborn of Joseph, and God prophesying the endowment of that title to the anointed in Psalm 89, not to mention Isaac being called Abraham’s one and only son even though Ishmael was born first). This is clearly the context of Col. 1:15 where the second Adam is born into this world to redeem us from sin and reconcile all creation.

 

It is not only clear from the context that this passage is referring to Jesus’ redemptive work and reconciliation of all things (not to Jesus being created), but also the passage does not say Jesus was the “First created [proto ktizo] of all creation [ktizo]”.  It says that Jesus is the “First born [pr totiko] of all creation [ktizo]”. If this passage was trying to indicate Jesus’ creation, it would have said He was [proto ktizo], but it doesn’t say that. Instead it uses the title Firstborn, which is the transferable title of pre-eminence that has nothing to do with either chronology or creation. So, even if we assumed for the sake of argument that He did have a point at which He was created, this passage makes no allusion to such an event.

 

Not only is the clearly demonstrable from the above examples from the Old Testament, but we can see that this is the case from the other applications of the same word in the New Testament (Col. 1:18; Rev. 1:5) which both refer to Him being the “Firstborn from the dead”. “And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the pre-eminence” (Col. 1:18)

 

Jesus was not the first to be born, as these passage refer to His earthly birth, nor was He the first to die. Therefore, if He’s firstborn from the dead, it must mean that He’s the first to provide spiritual life transcending death, again having nothing at all to do with a hard genesis of His being.

 

He is Firstborn because He needed to be born as a man in order to complete the redemptive work of being hung on a tree so he could assume the curse of sin, carrying it to the grave but conquering it by leaving it buried but raising Himself back to life (John 2:19-21) and therefore, as the second Adam, reverse the curse of the first Adam – all this having nothing to do with an origin of being.

 

Firstborn, not first created, is the critical and demonstrable distinction, and is a term that is never used in relation to the subject’s creation: “For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters” (Romans 8:29).

 

So, at this point they usually refuse to speak to me any further.


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#2
Cletus

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If you read the new world translation (JW bible) in The Gospel of John chapter one it becomes very evident they do not believe in the trinity. It says The Word was a God, compared to kjv it says The Word was God. I have actually studied with one of the elders and learned quit abit about what makes them tick.

You can also call the kingdom hall and ask to be put on the do not knock list.
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#3
tigger two

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It's incredibly unreasonable that such posts as the OP above are allowed concerning the deity of Jesus when everyone should know by now that JW's (and others) are not allowed to answer such subjects on this site. 


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#4
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#5
Persuaded

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Another fun garden path to go down is the alpha and omega/first and lasts of Revelation. After each verse, ask who is being referred to. They'll answer "Jehovah-God" to the first four...

Revelation 1:8 (KJV)
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Revelation 1:11 (KJV)
Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send [it] unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Revelation 21:6 (KJV)
And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Revelation 22:13 (KJV)
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Revelation 2:8 (KJV) 8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
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#6
tigger two

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See Post #3 above.


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#7
OldEnglishSheepdog

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It's incredibly unreasonable that such posts as the OP above are allowed concerning the deity of Jesus when everyone should know by now that JW's (and others) are not allowed to answer such subjects on this site. 

 

Hi tigger two,

 

You seem to be misunderstanding the purpose of this thread. If you read the post, I wasn't asking any questions for JWs to answer.

 

The point of the post is not to debate the deity of Christ, but to outline how to demonstrate to JWs the contradiction in their theology.

 

If you think my point is not air-tight though, please show me how it fails to necessarily entail that Jesus is Jehovah.

 

I'm always open to feedback but I've shown this to dozens of JW's and none of them have been able to account for it.


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#8
OldEnglishSheepdog

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Another fun garden path to go down is the alpha and omega/first and lasts of Revelation. After each verse, ask who is being referred to. They'll answer "Jehovah-God" to the first four...

Revelation 1:8 (KJV)
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Revelation 1:11 (KJV)
Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send [it] unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Revelation 21:6 (KJV)
And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Revelation 22:13 (KJV)
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Revelation 2:8 (KJV) 8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

 

Yes, I certainly have shown them this, and again they really have no way to account for it. They kind of try to point out that there is some debate as to whether or not each reference to Alpha and Omega in Revelation is in reference to Jesus. When I point out that any one of them demonstrates His divinity they don't reply - they just stand their with that smile that tells you they're not impressed anyways.

 

Have you found success in holding their feet to the fire with these references? I'd like to present them in a way they find more compelling, because some how when I show them this it doesn't seem to click.


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#9
Persuaded

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Success? -no. Coming to Christ is never an intellectual exercise, but is an attitude of the heart, in the same way the atheist "says in his heart, there is no God".

 

Which isn't to say we shouldn't do our best to be prepared to give everyman an answer, but we should recognize that logic doesn't win souls. It does give substance to our faith, though...


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#10
OldEnglishSheepdog

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Success? -no. Coming to Christ is never an intellectual exercise, but is an attitude of the heart, in the same way the atheist "says in his heart, there is no God".

 

Which isn't to say we shouldn't do our best to be prepared to give everyman an answer, but we should recognize that logic doesn't win souls. It does give substance to our faith, though...

 

I can't say I totally agree - Paul reasoned with people from the scripture, and people certainly construct intellectual barriers to hide behind.

 

Sometimes the stumpers really put a full stop to the debate - they just say "I... don't know", and then you can leave them to mull that over... or ignore it.

 

Just looking for more of that.


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#11
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I can definitely say I'm no Paul! That I haven't observed a conversion from a logical persuasion could be my own failing as a debater or orator, who knows. The JW's are trained to resist Christians, so their hearts are hardened- like the Pharisees of Paul's day, versus the "ordinary pagan". I'm not saying we shouldn't try, but that we should expect the HS' work on their hearts to be the stronger influence and not our logical efforts. Like Paul when he was Saul the Pharisee, it may take a Damascus road kind of event to change their direction...


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#12
OldEnglishSheepdog

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I can definitely say I'm no Paul! That I haven't observed a conversion from a logical persuasion could be my own failing as a debater or orator, who knows. The JW's are trained to resist Christians, so their hearts are hardened- like the Pharisees of Paul's day, versus the "ordinary pagan". I'm not saying we shouldn't try, but that we should expect the HS' work on their hearts to be the stronger influence and not our logical efforts. Like Paul when he was Saul the Pharisee, it may take a Damascus road kind of event to change their direction...

 

For sure - just trying to be the feet that bring the good news with all my heart, soul, mind and strength!

 

God bless!


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#13
FresnoJoe

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For sure - just trying to be the feet that bring the good news with all my heart, soul, mind and strength!

 

:thumbsup:

 

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:17

 

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Welcome Back Beloved~!


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#14
Defending the Name

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OldEnglishSheepdog you produced a lot of good points and your efforts are worthy.

I personally found that you can not contend with the JWs with the identity of The Lord because current Christian doctrine in itself has a contradiction that promotes this divergent belief that JWs have adopted. Please don't be shocked that I have said this, but it is true and I will elaborate on this, along the lines of the very important points that you presented.

But firstly I found effective measures to deal with JWs and that is, not on his identity but towards obedience to him as a follower. You see the point I am going to make will place the JWs in disobedience to The Lord and that cannot be resolved by them, therefore leaving them with a truth that eats away at them until they question their own ways. Self reflection and self appraisal is the most effective vehicle to the hearts of JWs.

I do it this way:

I ask them do they fast?

They say no.

I say why not?

They reply that in their belief they see no need to fast.

I follow it up by saying are you disciples of Jesus?

They say, yes.

Then if you are disciples of Jesus, then why do you not obey him?

This is the first complication I through at them and at this point they are stumped and I could see a gaze in their eyes, thinking what on earth does he mean that we the JWs are disobedient to Jesus?

I repeat this to anchor what I told them by saying you are disobeying The Lord because you do not follow his instructions, for it is written that after the bridegroom is gone, then it is certain that his disciples will need to fast and pray and by this they have the spiritual empowerment from Jesus to do wonderful things as he had promised.

At this point they are literally on the back foot and need an escape, they don't say anything further and they leave. But it is too late for I have already placed the seed of doubt to whether they truly are followers of Jesus based on the fact that they do not fast, thereby they are disobedient to The Lord and in that regard they can not label themselves as disciples of Jesus.

This is the effective means by which I contend with JWs and on every occasion they are literally stopped in their tracks and they immediately see it imperative to leave and not ever send anyone to my residence. If a lot of Christians did this, then sooner or later they have no one to heckle and so that would turn on their own organisation as their members start to doubt whether they truly follow Jesus.

Edited by Defending the Name, 11 September 2014 - 05:53 PM.

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#15
Defending the Name

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OldEnglishSheepdog you produced a lot of good points and your efforts are worthy.
I personally found that you can not contend with the JWs with the identity of The Lord because current Christian doctrine in itself has a contradiction that promotes this divergent belief that JWs have adopted. Please don't be shocked that I have said this, but it is true and I will elaborate on this, along the lines of the very important points that you presented.
But firstly I found effective measures to deal with JWs and that is, not on his identity but towards obedience to him as a follower. You see the point I am going to make will place the JWs in disobedience to The Lord and that cannot be resolved by them, therefore leaving them with a truth that eats away at them until they question their own ways. Self reflection and self appraisal is the most effective vehicle to the hearts of JWs.
I do it this way:
I ask them do they fast?
They say no.
I say why not?
They reply that in their belief they see no need to fast.
I follow it up by saying are you disciples of Jesus?
They say, yes.
Then if you are disciples of Jesus, then why do you not obey him?
This is the first complication I through at them and at this point they are stumped and I could see a gaze in their eyes, thinking what on earth does he mean that we the JWs are disobedient to Jesus?
I repeat this to anchor what I told them by saying you are disobeying The Lord because you do not follow his instructions, for it is written that after the bridegroom is gone, then it is certain that his disciples will need to fast and pray and by this they have the spiritual empowerment from Jesus to do wonderful things as he had promised.
At this point they are literally on the back foot and need an escape, they don't say anything further and they leave. But it is too late for I have already placed the seed of doubt to whether they truly are followers of Jesus based on the fact that they do not fast, thereby they are disobedient to The Lord and in that regard they can not label themselves as disciples of Jesus.
This is the effective means by which I contend with JWs and on every occasion they are literally stopped in their tracks and they immediately see it imperative to leave and not ever send anyone to my residence. If a lot of Christians did this, then sooner or later they have no one to heckle and so that would turn on their own organisation as their members start to doubt whether they truly follow Jesus.

To elaborate on what you stated below:

"They (Jehovah's witnesses)tell me that just as an architect can say that they have built a building even if they hire a contractor to actually do the construction, so too can Jehovah have created a god and created the heavens and the earth through that being.

If an architect said that they were alone when they built a building, that they did not use any contractors but did all of the construction with their own hands because they would not share the glory in building with any contractors, and then it turned out that in fact they hired a contractor for the construction then they would be lying."

Today's Christian doctrine also makes the same mistake that the Jehovah's witnesses make, in saying that Jehovah created the heavens and the earth through Jesus when quoting John 1:1-5, however on a more subtle note. The subtlety, is that today's Christian doctrine, unlike the Jehovah's witnesses will say that Jesus is Jehovah and that the Father created all things through the His Son.

Ok so JWs deny Jesus the status of Jehovah and Christians also deny the Living Word as the Father.

You made a very important point and I will sum it up as follows:

That Jehovah did all this by his own hands because he would not share the glory with another, because there was no other distinct and separate person/god beside him, therefore Jehovah himself as the I AM, is the one and only architect and builder of everything that ever was created.

Jesus claimed to be the light and life. This is the same light that was presented in Genesis account on the first day when the light/life entered the realm of the darkness/dead and brought forth light/life when it was declared, "LET THERE BE LIGHT". This declaration is God declaring his presence as the Holy Ghost who moved upon the face of the waters (Genesis 1:2).

Jesus claims to be that Light/Life who was present to kick start day one of Genesis.

Also something handy to note is, that in the Old Testament the Angel of Yahweh's presence who entered into Abraham's tent and dined with him, made an oath and what he said is something that is ignored by today's Christian doctrine. Read it as follows:

Genesis 22:15-16
The angel of the Lord called to Abraham from heaven a second time and said, “I swear by myself, declares the Lord, that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son,

Hebrews 6:13
When God made his promise to Abraham, since there was no one greater for him to swear by, he swore by himself,

In that regard Jesus told Philip the same thing when Philip asked to show him the Father, Jesus replied:

John 14:9-10
Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me?

Jesus is directing the worshippers to not look beyond his personhood for the Father of all creation. This means that we are to regard The Lord as our Heavenly Eternal Father.

Now going back to the JW argument, they deny him as Jehovah, yet today's Christian doctrine denies him as the Father. Isn't this the same thing?

It is the same thing, and JWs have picked up on this and no longer consider Christians as serious because of their own denial, they are laughing inside and saying to themselves that Christians say that Jesus is Jehovah but he is not the Father. This has great implications on the effectiveness of preaching the gospel because it becomes a stumbling block.

Jesus claims to be the Light/Life and he alone is said to have created all things that ever were created and he did this by himself and he told his followers to not look beyond his personhood for the Father. Is Jesus not by definition of the term , the Eternal Father and our Father who created us? (Isaiah 9:6)

Then why does Christian doctrine deny this?

Because this denial is on par with the JWs rejecting the Living Word as Jehovah God.

Either Jesus is your Father or he is not?

I can testify that I am a Christian and he is my Eternal Father and he is Jehovah and there are no other persons behind, beside or beyond him, and it was him all along as the Holy Angel of Yahweh's presence who made that oath to Abraham and said I make this by myself because there is no other person(s) greater beside me who can make it on my behalf.

Jesus stated I am in the Father and the Father is in me. In what context did he mention this?

In the context of the Holy Ghost that was to be given to the disciples on Pentecost as mentioned in John 14, for Jesus declared God is Holy Spirit (John 4:24). The same presence of The Lord who came on the first day of creation as the Light/Life and declared "LET THERE BE LIGHT".

If Christians identify the trinity through the personhood of the Living Word as the ultimate one and only supreme commander and creator of all, who is the everlasting Father (Isaiah 9:6), then we would be successful in preaching the gospel to the JWs and the Jews who have yet to accept Christ.

I believe in the trinity in Christ and the trinity through Christ and I regard the Christ as the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost for Jesus in John 14 said in a little while the world will never see me again, yet to his disciples he said, you will see me for I will manifest myself onto you and make my abode with you, so that you are in me and I in you in spiritual marriage (Romans 8:9-11). As The Lord said I will not leave you comfortless for I will send you the comforter who is the Holy Ghost. The Lord also says that he stands at the door of our hearts and knocks and if any man or women open their hearts to him, then he will enter into them and commune/SUP with them in Spirit, for it is written:

"Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness."

He who denies the Christ as the Father, denies him as the Holy Ghost and also denies as the Son and denies him as Jehovah Almighty God the creator of all.

Who out there denies the TRINITY OF CHRIST and the TRINITY THROUGH CHRIST?

Either you will consider Christ as your Heavenly Eternal Father and establish that close relationship as was told to Philip or you don't and therefore stand to be rejected by him for your denial in him as your Father. So when you call upon him Lord, Lord and Lord, he will respond by saying:

Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Do you know and also consider the Living Word of God, who is the Christ as your Father me the Holy Ghost who dwells in the hearts of the believers today?

I know and you also know, that if I told my earthly father, you are not my father but you are the son of your mother, how do you think an earthly father will respond?

Will he not say, you wicked child, I have laboured much to bring you up to where you are now and you have the tenacity to deny me as your father, by saying that I am not your father, but I am the son of my mother. Who do you think you are? For you have shown to be a child of lawlessness and have denied me my fatherhood.

This is exactly what the risen Lord will say to many who say on that day Lord, Lord and Lord. For those who reject Christ's fatherhood will surely be disappointed to know that the Living Word is the Eternal Heavenly Father of all. (Isaiah 9:6)

This is 101 apologetics of the 1st century apostolic.

Edited by Defending the Name, 11 September 2014 - 08:40 PM.

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#16
OldEnglishSheepdog

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OldEnglishSheepdog you produced a lot of good points and your efforts are worthy.
I personally found that you can not contend with the JWs with the identity of The Lord because current Christian doctrine in itself has a contradiction that promotes this divergent belief that JWs have adopted. Please don't be shocked that I have said this, but it is true and I will elaborate on this, along the lines of the very important points that you presented.
But firstly I found effective measures to deal with JWs and that is, not on his identity but towards obedience to him as a follower. You see the point I am going to make will place the JWs in disobedience to The Lord and that cannot be resolved by them, therefore leaving them with a truth that eats away at them until they question their own ways. Self reflection and self appraisal is the most effective vehicle to the hearts of JWs.
I do it this way:
I ask them do they fast?
They say no.
I say why not?
They reply that in their belief they see no need to fast.
I follow it up by saying are you disciples of Jesus?
They say, yes.
Then if you are disciples of Jesus, then why do you not obey him?
This is the first complication I through at them and at this point they are stumped and I could see a gaze in their eyes, thinking what on earth does he mean that we the JWs are disobedient to Jesus?
I repeat this to anchor what I told them by saying you are disobeying The Lord because you do not follow his instructions, for it is written that after the bridegroom is gone, then it is certain that his disciples will need to fast and pray and by this they have the spiritual empowerment from Jesus to do wonderful things as he had promised.
At this point they are literally on the back foot and need an escape, they don't say anything further and they leave. But it is too late for I have already placed the seed of doubt to whether they truly are followers of Jesus based on the fact that they do not fast, thereby they are disobedient to The Lord and in that regard they can not label themselves as disciples of Jesus.
This is the effective means by which I contend with JWs and on every occasion they are literally stopped in their tracks and they immediately see it imperative to leave and not ever send anyone to my residence. If a lot of Christians did this, then sooner or later they have no one to heckle and so that would turn on their own organisation as their members start to doubt whether they truly follow Jesus.

To elaborate on what you stated below:

"They (Jehovah's witnesses)tell me that just as an architect can say that they have built a building even if they hire a contractor to actually do the construction, so too can Jehovah have created a god and created the heavens and the earth through that being.

If an architect said that they were alone when they built a building, that they did not use any contractors but did all of the construction with their own hands because they would not share the glory in building with any contractors, and then it turned out that in fact they hired a contractor for the construction then they would be lying."

Today's Christian doctrine also makes the same mistake that the Jehovah's witnesses make, in saying that Jehovah created the heavens and the earth through Jesus when quoting John 1:1-5, however on a more subtle note. The subtlety, is that today's Christian doctrine, unlike the Jehovah's witnesses will say that Jesus is Jehovah and that the Father created all things through the His Son.

Ok so JWs deny Jesus the status of Jehovah and Christians also deny the Living Word as the Father.

You made a very important point and I will sum it up as follows:

That Jehovah did all this by his own hands because he would not share the glory with another, because there was no other distinct and separate person/god beside him, therefore Jehovah himself as the I AM, is the one and only architect and builder of everything that ever was created.

Jesus claimed to be the light and life. This is the same light that was presented in Genesis account on the first day when the light/life entered the realm of the darkness/dead and brought forth light/life when it was declared, "LET THERE BE LIGHT". This declaration is God declaring his presence as the Holy Ghost who moved upon the face of the waters (Genesis 1:2).

Jesus claims to be that Light/Life who was present to kick start day one of Genesis.

Also something handy to note is, that in the Old Testament the Angel of Yahweh's presence who entered into Abraham's tent and dined with him, made an oath and what he said is something that is ignored by today's Christian doctrine. Read it as follows:

Genesis 22:15-16
The angel of the Lord called to Abraham from heaven a second time and said, “I swear by myself, declares the Lord, that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son,

Hebrews 6:13
When God made his promise to Abraham, since there was no one greater for him to swear by, he swore by himself,

In that regard Jesus told Philip the same thing when Philip asked to show him the Father, Jesus replied:

John 14:9-10
Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me?

Jesus is directing the worshippers to not look beyond his personhood for the Father of all creation. This means that we are to regard The Lord as our Heavenly Eternal Father.

Now going back to the JW argument, they deny him as Jehovah, yet today's Christian doctrine denies him as the Father. Isn't this the same thing?

It is the same thing, and JWs have picked up on this and no longer consider Christians as serious because of their own denial, they are laughing inside and saying to themselves that Christians say that Jesus is Jehovah but he is not the Father. This has great implications on the effectiveness of preaching the gospel because it becomes a stumbling block.

Jesus claims to be the Light/Life and he alone is said to have created all things that ever were created and he did this by himself and he told his followers to not look beyond his personhood for the Father. Is Jesus not by definition of the term , the Eternal Father and our Father who created us? (Isaiah 9:6)

Then why does Christian doctrine deny this?

Because this denial is on par with the JWs rejecting the Living Word as Jehovah God.

Either Jesus is your Father or he is not?

I can testify that I am a Christian and he is my Eternal Father and he is Jehovah and there are no other persons behind, beside or beyond him, and it was him all along as the Holy Angel of Yahweh's presence who made that oath to Abraham and said I make this by myself because there is no other person(s) greater beside me who can make it on my behalf.

Jesus stated I am in the Father and the Father is in me. In what context did he mention this?

In the context of the Holy Ghost that was to be given to the disciples on Pentecost as mentioned in John 14, for Jesus declared God is Holy Spirit (John 4:24). The same presence of The Lord who came on the first day of creation as the Light/Life and declared "LET THERE BE LIGHT".

If Christians identify the trinity through the personhood of the Living Word as the ultimate one and only supreme commander and creator of all, who is the everlasting Father (Isaiah 9:6), then we would be successful in preaching the gospel to the JWs and the Jews who have yet to accept Christ.

I believe in the trinity in Christ and the trinity through Christ and I regard the Christ as the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost for Jesus in John 14 said in a little while the world will never see me again, yet to his disciples he said, you will see me for I will manifest myself onto you and make my abode with you, so that you are in me and I in you in spiritual marriage (Romans 8:9-11). As The Lord said I will not leave you comfortless for I will send you the comforter who is the Holy Ghost. The Lord also says that he stands at the door of our hearts and knocks and if any man or women open their hearts to him, then he will enter into them and commune/SUP with them in Spirit, for it is written:

"Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness."

He who denies the Christ as the Father, denies him as the Holy Ghost and also denies as the Son and denies him as Jehovah Almighty God the creator of all.

Who out there denies the TRINITY OF CHRIST and the TRINITY THROUGH CHRIST?

Either you will consider Christ as your Heavenly Eternal Father and establish that close relationship as was told to Philip or you don't and therefore stand to be rejected by him for your denial in him as your Father. So when you call upon him Lord, Lord and Lord, he will respond by saying:

Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Do you know and also consider the Living Word of God, who is the Christ as your Father me the Holy Ghost who dwells in the hearts of the believers today?

I know and you also know, that if I told my earthly father, you are not my father but you are the son of your mother, how do you think an earthly father will respond?

Will he not say, you wicked child, I have laboured much to bring you up to where you are now and you have the tenacity to deny me as your father, by saying that I am not your father, but I am the son of my mother. Who do you think you are? For you have shown to be a child of lawlessness and have denied me my fatherhood.

This is exactly what the risen Lord will say to many who say on that day Lord, Lord and Lord. For those who reject Christ's fatherhood will surely be disappointed to know that the Living Word is the Eternal Heavenly Father of all. (Isaiah 9:6)

This is 101 apologetics of the 1st century apostolic.

 

 

I'm not sure I'm following what you're saying here - can you clarify how your view is different from Modalism? It sounds like you're saying that you believe in the trinity, but that Christ is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, which is just modalism.

 

If you can clarify that for me I'll provide my response - thanks!


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#17
Rustyangel

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I just took my big red scary dog out one day to meet them.  Rusty was a massive Rhodesian Ridgeback ( I found him) tipping the scales at just over 100 pounds and it was all muscle.  I trained him.  He walked out with me and sat down right by my side. I had him on a loose lead.  He never moved a muscle until I took a step toward them them, he stood up and just stared at them with a very low but audible growl coming from him.  They made their way back to the gate two kids in tow to a gate with a lock on it that wasn't locked, with a sign on the other side of the gate saying "Guard Dog On Duty". That was 20 years ago.  They never came back until about two weeks ago.  My gate was locked this time, and they stood there shaking the gate.  Next time I will let my dogs out.  They are not as big as my Rusty was but they will rush the fence and make a very threatening  barks.  I think they will get my point.


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#18
Defending the Name

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OldEnglishSheepdog you produced a lot of good points and your efforts are worthy.
I personally found that you can not contend with the JWs with the identity of The Lord because current Christian doctrine in itself has a contradiction that promotes this divergent belief that JWs have adopted. Please don't be shocked that I have said this, but it is true and I will elaborate on this, along the lines of the very important points that you presented.
But firstly I found effective measures to deal with JWs and that is, not on his identity but towards obedience to him as a follower. You see the point I am going to make will place the JWs in disobedience to The Lord and that cannot be resolved by them, therefore leaving them with a truth that eats away at them until they question their own ways. Self reflection and self appraisal is the most effective vehicle to the hearts of JWs.
I do it this way:
I ask them do they fast?
They say no.
I say why not?
They reply that in their belief they see no need to fast.
I follow it up by saying are you disciples of Jesus?
They say, yes.
Then if you are disciples of Jesus, then why do you not obey him?
This is the first complication I through at them and at this point they are stumped and I could see a gaze in their eyes, thinking what on earth does he mean that we the JWs are disobedient to Jesus?
I repeat this to anchor what I told them by saying you are disobeying The Lord because you do not follow his instructions, for it is written that after the bridegroom is gone, then it is certain that his disciples will need to fast and pray and by this they have the spiritual empowerment from Jesus to do wonderful things as he had promised.
At this point they are literally on the back foot and need an escape, they don't say anything further and they leave. But it is too late for I have already placed the seed of doubt to whether they truly are followers of Jesus based on the fact that they do not fast, thereby they are disobedient to The Lord and in that regard they can not label themselves as disciples of Jesus.
This is the effective means by which I contend with JWs and on every occasion they are literally stopped in their tracks and they immediately see it imperative to leave and not ever send anyone to my residence. If a lot of Christians did this, then sooner or later they have no one to heckle and so that would turn on their own organisation as their members start to doubt whether they truly follow Jesus.

To elaborate on what you stated below:
"They (Jehovah's witnesses)tell me that just as an architect can say that they have built a building even if they hire a contractor to actually do the construction, so too can Jehovah have created a god and created the heavens and the earth through that being.
If an architect said that they were alone when they built a building, that they did not use any contractors but did all of the construction with their own hands because they would not share the glory in building with any contractors, and then it turned out that in fact they hired a contractor for the construction then they would be lying."
Today's Christian doctrine also makes the same mistake that the Jehovah's witnesses make, in saying that Jehovah created the heavens and the earth through Jesus when quoting John 1:1-5, however on a more subtle note. The subtlety, is that today's Christian doctrine, unlike the Jehovah's witnesses will say that Jesus is Jehovah and that the Father created all things through the His Son.
Ok so JWs deny Jesus the status of Jehovah and Christians also deny the Living Word as the Father.
You made a very important point and I will sum it up as follows:
That Jehovah did all this by his own hands because he would not share the glory with another, because there was no other distinct and separate person/god beside him, therefore Jehovah himself as the I AM, is the one and only architect and builder of everything that ever was created.
Jesus claimed to be the light and life. This is the same light that was presented in Genesis account on the first day when the light/life entered the realm of the darkness/dead and brought forth light/life when it was declared, "LET THERE BE LIGHT". This declaration is God declaring his presence as the Holy Ghost who moved upon the face of the waters (Genesis 1:2).
Jesus claims to be that Light/Life who was present to kick start day one of Genesis.
Also something handy to note is, that in the Old Testament the Angel of Yahweh's presence who entered into Abraham's tent and dined with him, made an oath and what he said is something that is ignored by today's Christian doctrine. Read it as follows:
Genesis 22:15-16
The angel of the Lord called to Abraham from heaven a second time and said, “I swear by myself, declares the Lord, that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son,
Hebrews 6:13
When God made his promise to Abraham, since there was no one greater for him to swear by, he swore by himself,
In that regard Jesus told Philip the same thing when Philip asked to show him the Father, Jesus replied:
John 14:9-10
Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me?
Jesus is directing the worshippers to not look beyond his personhood for the Father of all creation. This means that we are to regard The Lord as our Heavenly Eternal Father.
Now going back to the JW argument, they deny him as Jehovah, yet today's Christian doctrine denies him as the Father. Isn't this the same thing?
It is the same thing, and JWs have picked up on this and no longer consider Christians as serious because of their own denial, they are laughing inside and saying to themselves that Christians say that Jesus is Jehovah but he is not the Father. This has great implications on the effectiveness of preaching the gospel because it becomes a stumbling block.
Jesus claims to be the Light/Life and he alone is said to have created all things that ever were created and he did this by himself and he told his followers to not look beyond his personhood for the Father. Is Jesus not by definition of the term , the Eternal Father and our Father who created us? (Isaiah 9:6)
Then why does Christian doctrine deny this?
Because this denial is on par with the JWs rejecting the Living Word as Jehovah God.
Either Jesus is your Father or he is not?
I can testify that I am a Christian and he is my Eternal Father and he is Jehovah and there are no other persons behind, beside or beyond him, and it was him all along as the Holy Angel of Yahweh's presence who made that oath to Abraham and said I make this by myself because there is no other person(s) greater beside me who can make it on my behalf.
Jesus stated I am in the Father and the Father is in me. In what context did he mention this?
In the context of the Holy Ghost that was to be given to the disciples on Pentecost as mentioned in John 14, for Jesus declared God is Holy Spirit (John 4:24). The same presence of The Lord who came on the first day of creation as the Light/Life and declared "LET THERE BE LIGHT".
If Christians identify the trinity through the personhood of the Living Word as the ultimate one and only supreme commander and creator of all, who is the everlasting Father (Isaiah 9:6), then we would be successful in preaching the gospel to the JWs and the Jews who have yet to accept Christ.
I believe in the trinity in Christ and the trinity through Christ and I regard the Christ as the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost for Jesus in John 14 said in a little while the world will never see me again, yet to his disciples he said, you will see me for I will manifest myself onto you and make my abode with you, so that you are in me and I in you in spiritual marriage (Romans 8:9-11). As The Lord said I will not leave you comfortless for I will send you the comforter who is the Holy Ghost. The Lord also says that he stands at the door of our hearts and knocks and if any man or women open their hearts to him, then he will enter into them and commune/SUP with them in Spirit, for it is written:
"Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness."
He who denies the Christ as the Father, denies him as the Holy Ghost and also denies as the Son and denies him as Jehovah Almighty God the creator of all.
Who out there denies the TRINITY OF CHRIST and the TRINITY THROUGH CHRIST?
Either you will consider Christ as your Heavenly Eternal Father and establish that close relationship as was told to Philip or you don't and therefore stand to be rejected by him for your denial in him as your Father. So when you call upon him Lord, Lord and Lord, he will respond by saying:
Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
Do you know and also consider the Living Word of God, who is the Christ as your Father me the Holy Ghost who dwells in the hearts of the believers today?
I know and you also know, that if I told my earthly father, you are not my father but you are the son of your mother, how do you think an earthly father will respond?
Will he not say, you wicked child, I have laboured much to bring you up to where you are now and you have the tenacity to deny me as your father, by saying that I am not your father, but I am the son of my mother. Who do you think you are? For you have shown to be a child of lawlessness and have denied me my fatherhood.
This is exactly what the risen Lord will say to many who say on that day Lord, Lord and Lord. For those who reject Christ's fatherhood will surely be disappointed to know that the Living Word is the Eternal Heavenly Father of all. (Isaiah 9:6)
This is 101 apologetics of the 1st century apostolic.

I'm not sure I'm following what you're saying here - can you clarify how your view is different from Modalism? It sounds like you're saying that you believe in the trinity, but that Christ is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, which is just modalism.

If you can clarify that for me I'll provide my response - thanks!
◄ John 1 ►
King James Bible
The Beginning
(Genesis 1:1-2)

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2The same was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

The same light that came on day one of Genesis is testified by apostle John to be the Living Word. The Living Word before putting on the flesh of his servants as the Jesus of Nazareth is the one and only almighty God who started day one of Genesis and be declared his presence when saying, "LET THERE BE LIGHT". Jesus claimed to be that light and the word light means life, for in the versus above Jesus life who is the light of men. Jesus claimed to be the life and the light.

If you notice the language being used like "the light shinty in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not" is in perfect harmony with Genesis account:

Genesis 1:2-4
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

Notice the light which is actually God's presence is the life that divided the darkness which represents death from that which is life, in the same way John writes that darkness/death comprehended not. This statement confirms that wherever God is, there shall also be life and death will be removed from his presence, which is what the void and the darkness upon the face of the deep represented.

So we know that the light that came not he first day of Genesis when "LET THER BE LIGHT" was declared is the Holy Spirit of God who moved upon the face of the brought to life waters.

Jesus said God is Holy Spirit (John 4:24).

Since the Living word and the Holy Spirit are placed at that same point in humanities point of conception, then it is clear that the Holy Ghost is the Living Word himself. Jesus the man was the Holy Ghost who took on the form of his servants, for he out on flesh and conceived himself miraculously through the virgin birth.

At the moment the Living Word conceived the world and brought forth life, he became THE ETERNAL FATHER of all his creation, which is why John writes that the Living Word is the light which is the life of men, that is his creation, because all things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

So the Living Word who is the Holy Spirit of God became to Father at the point be conceived the world and the life that is in it.

Emmanuel which means God is with us became the Living Word living amongst his creation as the preeminent Son who was given to the world. That is why John writes in:

1 John 1:1
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched--this we proclaim concerning the Word of life.

So the Living Word became also the Preeminent Son to his creation when he entered into it and was seen and touched by his disciples.

The Living Word is the Christ in which all the old and New Testament testify of him.

Isaiah 9:6 gives two relationship titles to the Living Word as the Son and also the eternal Father.

The trinity is in the Living Word and through the Living Word. The Living a Word is a person and that person came as the Angel of Yahweh's presence when he entered into Abraham's tent and done with him.

The Living Word made an oath to Abraham by himself because there was no one besides him who can make the oath on his behalf.

Hebrews 6:13
When God made his promise to Abraham, since there was no one greater for him to swear by, he swore by himself,

Genesis 22:15
15And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time, 16And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son

Isaiah 63:9-10
In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the ANGEL OF HIS (Yahweh) PRESENCE saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old. But they rebelled, and vexed his HOLY SPIRIT: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them.

It is clear that the a Angel of Yahweh's presence and Jesus of Nazareth are the one in the same Living Word of God. Correlate the above scriptural versus from Hebrews, Genesis and Isaiah and you will find that this Angel is the preeminent Son because he is amongst his creation, whether he is with his created angels or with his created man.

Read John 14 and you will fully understand that it is both the Father and the Son who come on Pentecost to make their dwelling with man (John 14:23).

It is imperative to realise that the Living Word is the Holy Ghost who is the one personal being, who is both Father to his creation and also the Son to his creation. That is why it required the Living Word's absence as far as his post resurrection form is concerned, in order for him to come as the Holy Ghost.

Jesus told Philip when Philip asked to show him the Father, to not look to any other person beyond his personhood for he being the Living Word is the Father. Notice then he states that the Living Word is in the Father and the Father is in the Living Word, within the same context of the Holy Ghost that was to be given where he states that you will be in me and I in you. The Living Word is saying I and the Father are the same omnipresent Holy Ghost, the same Holy Ghost who is coming to be in the believers on Pentecost. Again Jesus said I am in the Father and the Father is in me, for I and the a Father are ONE, that is ONE Holy Spirit. (John 10:30)

Let us consider our finite being. I can be a father to my children and a son to my parents and yet I am the same person having two relationship attributes. However for the Living Word of God who has no beginning and no parents, he can be the Father to all his creation and also the preeminent Son that is given to this creation (Isaiah 9:6).

People don't realise and try to compare the Living Word to their finite being, when saying how can Jesus pray to himself, if he is also the Father?

Search throughout scripture and you will find the following:

1) the Living Word makes an oath by himself
2) the Living Word judges by himself
3) the Living Word glorifies himself
4) the Living Word speaks to himself by saying "LET US"
5) the Living Word prays to himself.
6) the Living Word testifies of himself
7) the Living Word speaks as the Father and also speaks as the Son throughout scripture.

The Living Word is the Holy Ghost.

Acts 20:28
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

The Living Word who is the Christ is the trinity and the trinity is through his personhood only and there is no one beside him.

The early Nestorian church believed in separating the Living Word from the servant form that he took upon himself. They also put an option at the Nicaea Council in 325 AD that the Christ is the Father when concerning the trinity of God.

They were called a heretical group and vanquished from the synod. This is the same church of Babylon that Peter writes to in:

1 Peter 5:13
The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.

Remembering that Peter at this time would not even consider preaching to the Gentiles and this was before Saint Paul's time. This church was a Semitic race (Men of Nineveh) who were considered by Saint Peter as his ancestors and therefore had absolutely no problem in preaching to them the gospel and associating with them.

Edited by Defending the Name, 15 September 2014 - 08:32 PM.

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#19
OldEnglishSheepdog

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OK, instead of amassing what you think is support for your position, can you first just plainly state what your position is? Are you a modalist? If not, what separates your view from modalism?


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Defending the Name

Defending the Name

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OK, instead of amassing what you think is support for your position, can you first just plainly state what your position is? Are you a modalist? If not, what separates your view from modalism?


No I am not a modalist. I am a descendant of the Men of Nineveh of the church of Babylon that was talked about in 1 Peter 5:13, in which the church elders attended the 325 AD Nicaea Council and who put forth the apostolic belief that the trinity of God is through one person who has been revealed throughout scriptures and this person is the Living Word of God, the Christ. One of the options that was presented before the council by the church of Babylon church fathers was that the Christ is Devine and existed before anything that was created and that he is the Father of all.

This was rejected because these church fathers separated the divinity of Christ who is Holy Spirit (John 4:24) from the flesh that he took upon himself as Jesus of Nazareth. In that respect they stated that the Devine has no father neither a mother and that Mary was only the mother of the flesh and not the Devine.

After this council this little church was ostracised and labelled as the Nestorian Church and later labeled as heretical. What did Jesus tell his disciple?

Matthew 12:41
The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.hew 12:42

What has been labeled for the wrong reasons the Nestorian Church is the little church of Babylon that Saint Peter held in high regard because of their solid faith in The Lord and faultless doctrine that they held.

It is inevitable that the truth has been silenced for thousands of years and recently it is emerging with the increase in spiritual awareness. The trinity cannot be any other person except the Devine, who is the Living Word, the Christ.

After all which peoples are said to be the handy work of God.

Isaiah 19:22-25New American Standard Bible (NASB)

22 The Lord will strike Egypt, striking but healing; so they will return to the Lord, and He will respond to them and will heal them.

23 In that day there will be a highway from Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrians will come into Egypt and the Egyptians into Assyria, and the Egyptians will worship with the Assyrians.

24 In that day Israel will be the third party with Egypt and Assyria, a blessing in the midst of the earth, 25 whom the Lord of hosts has blessed, saying, “Blessed is Egypt My people, and Assyria the work of My hands, and Israel My inheritance.”

The same Men of Nineveh whom God will use at the end to rally the unbelieving Jews of today as the 11th hour workmen to preach the gospel for the last an final time before satan tries to reign on the parade.

The same Holy hand that sent Jonah to the Men of Nineveh will send the Men of Nineveh to rebuke the unbelieving Jewish generation so that they return back to The Lord as the symbol of the prodigal young son who sold his inheritance. The red heifer (fatted cow) will be symbolically cut when God celebrates the return of his people Israel and the highway that God speaks of is the Assyrians and the Jews working side by side along side the third party the Egyptians that are symbolised by the gentile world at large who have come to accept Christ throughout the ages. The Egyptians who were once called NOT God's people, who have been called God's people are the gentile world.

So the unification of the Men of Nineveh with Israel will pave the way for Egypt to join them in force as one voice to rally the gospel to the ends of the earth for the last and final time before the beast of the bottomless Pitt aka satan emerges and tries to silence them for good.

Where does the term modalism come into play friend?

God works with the weak to rebuke the strong who have the numbers. Egypt has numbers but out of the small numbers that remain of the Men of Nineveh will God wield his Elijah to join Assyria and Israel together, in marriage with the Lord and begin a rally that can not be stopped by the flatteries that the devil's men have used throughout he ages, by deceiving many to reject the Christ as their Heavenly Eternal Father.

For a believer to reject Christ the Living Word as their Heavenly Eternal Father is at risk of being rejected by The Lord in the resurrection.

My previous post provides how and why the Christ is the Eternal Father and the risk of not establishing that relationship with him as it was instructed to Philip when he asked to see the Father, far out ways the risk of calling the Devine the Father and being wrong, although it is 100% not wrong to call him Father, he deserves it for all things were made by him and he is the life which is the light of men.

Edited by Defending the Name, 16 September 2014 - 07:38 PM.

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