Jump to content

christian forums

Worthy Christian Forums - Christian Forums

Welcome to Worthy Christian Forums
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Photo

Dear rapture believers

* * * * * 1 votes

  • Please log in to reply
59 replies to this topic

#1
inchrist

inchrist

    Veteran Member

  • Soapbox - Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 811 posts
  • Gender:Male

How is a person who believes in the rapture reconcile with the lords prayer?

 

Our Father, who art in heaven,
    hallowed be thy Name,
    thy kingdom come,
    thy will be done,
        on earth as it is in heaven.

 

I dont see rapture anywhere in the lords prayer

 

The Kingdom come...Isnt that exactly what is proclaimed in Revelation?

They will be done.....God's laws and governance proclaimed in Revelations when we live in the new Kingdom

on earth.... ON EARTH


  • 1

#2
shiloh357

shiloh357

    Royal Member

  • Platinum Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 36,924 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Israel Advocacy Bible Study, Apologetics, Theology, Camping, Hiking, Fishing, Birdwatching, BBQing

How is a person who believes in the rapture reconcile with the lords prayer?

 

Our Father, who art in heaven,
    hallowed be thy Name,
    thy kingdom come,
    thy will be done,
        on earth as it is in heaven.

 

I dont see rapture anywhere in the lords prayer

 

The Kingdom come...Isnt that exactly what is proclaimed in Revelation?

They will be done.....God's laws and governance proclaimed in Revelations when we live in the new Kingdom

on earth.... ON EARTH

Why would we expect to see anything about the rapture in the Lord's prayer?  It is a prayer not a prophecy.  We also see no mention of the Church age prior to the coming of the Kingdom the Lord's prayer.


  • 1

#3
inchrist

inchrist

    Veteran Member

  • Soapbox - Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 811 posts
  • Gender:Male

Why would we expect to see anything about the rapture in the Lord's prayer?  It is a prayer not a prophecy.  We also see no mention of the Church age prior to the coming of the Kingdom the Lord's prayer.

 

 

 

 

The lords prayer is a summary of the whole gospel this INCLUDES prophecy.

 

Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven.....

Is a pray as well as prophetic and finds its fulfillment  in Rev 11:15

 

The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah, and he will reign for ever and ever."

 

This is what we praying and prophecying over for the fulfillment of this prophecy for God to bring his kingdom to earth which will be done by the commencement of the 7th Trumpet.....There is no rapture because we are praying for this to happen and will see it happen.


Edited by inchrist, 09 June 2014 - 05:38 AM.

  • 1

#4
ezekiel

ezekiel
  • Seeker
  • 55 posts
  • Gender:Male

Now you read Revelation it starts out about the Churches and then Bam everything brakes loose tell me are these judgements against the Churches or them that dont fear God or both, tell me When the temple is built in heaven in Revelations and the word is to send the angels out and not return til the job is done who are the sacrifice for the temple. Tell me this if you say you follow Christ and he died and rise on the third day are you better then him that you fly away now do you follow him, these words from ezekiels post speaks of the new heavens comming and we will see it.

Isaiah 33

The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;

16 He shall dwell on high: his place of defence shall be the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters shall be sure.

17 Thine eyes shall see the king in his beauty: they shall behold the land that is very far off.

 

 

 


  • 1

#5
Helen Back

Helen Back
  • Banned
  • 47 posts
  • Gender:Female

At an hour you LEAST EXPECT my brother. If you expected it, he would be a liar.

 

With so many Christians, it seems at least one person is expecting the rapture at all times, so it will never happen.  Just kidding.

 

Much Love


Edited by Helen Back, 17 June 2014 - 12:57 PM.

  • 2

#6
Spock

Spock

    Senior Member

  • Senior Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,326 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Buffalo, NY
  • Interests:Prophecy, tennis, golf, us presidents, astronomy, children, fantasy football, good tv/film

At an hour you LEAST EXPECT my brother. If you expected it, he would be a liar.

 
With so many Christians, it seems at least one person is expecting the rapture at all times, so it will never happen.  Just kidding.
 
Much Love

Ha ha, nice one. You got me. :)

More love back at you
  • 1

#7
Johnlove

Johnlove

    Junior Member

  • Members *
  • PipPip
  • 127 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:NC
  • Interests:God
    Family
    wood carving
    Bowling

I agree this world is getting way too hard to live in and still follow Jesus.  What most people don't realize is that we are in the tribulation.  There is no pre-trib. 


  • 1

#8
Montana Marv

Montana Marv

    Senior Member

  • Senior Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,063 posts
  • Gender:Male

I agree this world is getting way too hard to live in and still follow Jesus.  What most people don't realize is that we are in the tribulation.  There is no pre-trib. 

Yet we are not in the 70th week of Daniel, still future.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv


  • 1

#9
Johnlove

Johnlove

    Junior Member

  • Members *
  • PipPip
  • 127 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:NC
  • Interests:God
    Family
    wood carving
    Bowling

No I believe we are only in the first stages of the tribulations.  Also I personally believe we don't understand about how long it will last.

 

Jesus told me thirty-six years ago that a time was coming soon when man would suffer more then he has ever suffered.  He told me I was to give a word and leave, that out of the word I would give, a community would grow.  He said that he wanted a place of safety for his people.

 

When he told me I thought soon meant a few weeks or so? 

 

Soon to God may be thousands of years.    


  • 1

#10

  • Guests

You know something doesn't make sense to me. lots of ppl are saying how close the rapture is and believe it too but as much as i hope it is i cannot get myself to believe it because God has not given me any indication that the time is truly near. ppl say it could happen any day but i for some reason cannot believe it, i try to force myself to but i just cant. i remember before i even knew what the rapture was something happened to me i had this sense of knowing inside me that Jesus was comimng for me, i didnt know what it meant or why he was coming for me but i just knew. in one of my rapture dreams there was also that sense of knowing. so if he was really that close to coming for us wouldnt he let us know somehow? lots of ppl go to youtube to watch videos of rapture dreams or a word from the Lord that he is coming soon but i dont want to go to youtube or other ppl to know he is coming i think we should just know somehow. Why can i not seem to believe any more? i want to believe i want to have faith that its nearly time to go home but i guess i am just tired of hoping and then being let down because nothing happens. I simply don't belong here i dont fit in with this world, everyone in this world wants different things than me and i seek things that only God has but as long as i am bound by the flesh i can never truly have them because the flesh is strong.

Don't worry too much about whether His coming is around the corner or not, it is around the corner, but we do not know how big the corner is. Is it possible for him to come at any moment? I suppose with God, anything is possible, but those who say that the bible teaches that it "could be at any moment", have taken liberties with the scripture, so you are correct to have reservations about this interpretation.

There are passages which can be understood to teach a delay in His coming, and there are those which are understood that certain things must first happen. This was even more true in apostolic times than it is now. We can however, feel safe in assuming that His coming to catch up His people, is 2000 years closer, than it was when Jesus ascended to heaven.

Be careful not to fall prey to ear tickling doctrines that we know will come in the last days, and examine the scriptures daily, to see if these things are so.


  • 1

#11
RustyAngeL

RustyAngeL

    Royal Member

  • Worthy Chat Servant
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,042 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Interests:Praising my Savior and Lord in song. Training dogs basic manners. Fellowshipping with my Worthy family. I love sharing Jesus and all He has done for me and what He can do for others. Giving them hope when people feel there is none. Thriving to live as if He is coming tomorrow.

My friend and I were just talking today about how close we believe the coming of  the Lord is.  Everyday things get worse and I too believe His return is very near.

 

Because He Lives!  Rustyangel


  • 1

#12
Spock

Spock

    Senior Member

  • Senior Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,326 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Buffalo, NY
  • Interests:Prophecy, tennis, golf, us presidents, astronomy, children, fantasy football, good tv/film

Well, I see there's a lot of folks here on the Pre-Tribulational Rapture theory.
 
That doctrine from men never was a doctrine in the Church until the 1800's. The early Church fathers certainly never held to the idea of Christ's coming to gather His Church prior to, nor during the "great tribulation" He taught.
 
Nor does God's Word anywhere in Scripture even use the word 'rapture'. That word was derived from the Latin translation of the Greek NT word harpazo (to sieze), translated as "caught up" in the KJV Bible.
 
I'm sorry if some are offended at me saying this, but God's Word teaches that Christ's second coming and gathering of His Church, both from Heaven of the asleep saints, and His Church yet alive on earth, is at the end of the coming tribulation. The Scripture proof of that is clear from our Lord Jesus Himself in the Matt.24 and Mark 13 chapters, and by Apostle Paul in the 2 Thess.2 chapter. There also are other Scripture examples as proof also, like Christ's warning on the 6th Vial of Rev.16 where He is speaking to His Church still on earth at that point, just prior to the 7th Vial being poured out.
 
Moreover, in 1 Thess.5 Apostle Paul said that day (Christ's coming as a thief in the night) is NOT... to take us believers by surprise! Read it brethren and tell me I'm wrong with a good conscience.
 
The ones that Christ's coming will take by surprise are those who are not 'watching' like He commanded us. That does not mean an imminent rapture either, it means to be watching the signs of the end time events He gave us so as to not be deceived. That's why He gave us His Revelation through His Apostle John, so we'd 'know' the events to occur leading up to the time of His return. Did I say the day or hour? No. It's true none know when that will be, but when the events come to pass like He said to be watching, and He showed us in Rev.10 & 11 that when the 7th trumpet sounds the prophecies for this present world are finished, then what time do you think that means?!?


I'm not offended at all, so no apology necessary. But......you are wrong. Hehe

Spock running out the back door
  • 2

#13
Salty

Salty

    Senior Member

  • Senior Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,280 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:I love God's Word The Holy Bible. My primary Bible is the good 'ole 1611 King James Version. I prefer the Majority Text of The New Testament used for the KJV above later translations from the Alexandrian texts like the NIV.

    I've played guitar for many years. I enjoy mixing music in Pro Tools, and doing instrumental writing. If you have a Christian song you'd like mixed PM me, I do a lot of free work.

Folks, I wish... the pre-trib rapture was true, but not enough to try and force that idea into Scripture when it does not exist.

 

I well know a certain number of brethren are going to be deceived by men that push that idea. I'd rather they listened to our Heavenly Father and His Son directly in His Word though. I've discovered too many of them don't realize that He will show them His Word directly IF they quit listening to those men and instead ask Him for it, and then get disciplined in His Word for theirselves.

 

Jesus told us all things. He already revealed the times and the seasons leading up to His return. But it's spread out through the whole Bible, not just in one sole chapter or Book. Did you not know He showed us His coming within three and one half days after a specific event comes to pass in Jerusalem? Here it is...

 

 

God's two witnesses are killed with their dead bodies left laying in the street of Jerusalem for three and one half days. That's towards the end of the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period:

 

Rev 11:7-9
7    And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8    And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9    And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
(KJV)

 

Rev 11:11-12
11    And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12    And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, "Come up hither." And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
(KJV)


Rev 11:13-15
13    And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14    The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15    And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."
(KJV)

 

 

In the "same hour" God's two wittnesses arise, those events of the "third woe" come quickly. The 7th Trumpet sounds and notice the power transfer on earth from Satan's hand into The Heavenly Father and His Son's hand. Common sense tells you the tribulation has to be over at that point of transfer on the 7th trumpet - 3rd Woe period. It happens three days and an half AFTER God's two witnesses are killed in Jerusalem.

 

 

Will the world 'know' when God's two witnesses in Jerusalem are killed? Yes...

 

Rev 11:9-10
9    And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10    And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
(KJV)

 

How will the world see their dead bodies in Jerusalem? Apparently it's going to be televised over the whole world, because... of the next verse. The world (the deceived) will be throwing parties once the two witnesses are killed, giving each other presents and such. Sounds like a 'two witnesses are dead' party doesn't it?

 

But those listening to the Pre-Trib Rapture preachers will say something like, "That doesn't apply to Christ's Church, because the Church is already raptured at that point!", and other such denial type statements. Those don't know about these signs our Lord Jesus gave His because they don't want... to know them! And that's a type of rebellion against Him the way I see it, disregarding the signs He gave us to be watching as these things unfold.


Edited by Salty, 21 June 2014 - 06:51 PM.

  • 1

#14
Montana Marv

Montana Marv

    Senior Member

  • Senior Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,063 posts
  • Gender:Male

Salty

 

Sorry but the transfer of power does not happen until after Armageddon and after Satan has been locked up.  Where do you come up with television broadcasting the coming back to life of the two witnesses.  These people of all nations and tongues are already in Jerusalem, they view this event there.

 

Some of the Thessalonians thought they had missed the Rapture (saying that the day of the Lord has already come).  This is why Paul had to write some of 2 Thes, to correct this timing issue.  There are only two great events that the believers are looking forward to, 1. The Rapture,  2. The Second Coming.  They would have known if the Second Coming had happened, what they thought they had missed was the harpozo (Rapture).  This harpozo or Rapture doctrine was taught in the early Church.  It is not new, it did not come about from England.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv


  • 1

#15
rollinTHUNDER

rollinTHUNDER

    Royal Member

  • Royal Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,223 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Between Daytona Beach & St. Augustine, Florida

Salty
 
Sorry but the transfer of power does not happen until after Armageddon and after Satan has been locked up.  Where do you come up with television broadcasting the coming back to life of the two witnesses.  These people of all nations and tongues are already in Jerusalem, they view this event there.
 
Some of the Thessalonians thought they had missed the Rapture (saying that the day of the Lord has already come).  This is why Paul had to write some of 2 Thes, to correct this timing issue.  There are only two great events that the believers are looking forward to, 1. The Rapture,  2. The Second Coming.  They would have known if the Second Coming had happened, what they thought they had missed was the harpozo (Rapture).  This harpozo or Rapture doctrine was taught in the early Church.  It is not new, it did not come about from England.
 
In Christ
Montana Marv

The Thessalonians did think that they had missed the rapture, but only because false teachers had slipped in when Paul was away, which is why Paul told them not to let anyone deceive them, neither by word or letter as from them, in verse 2.  He then told them that that day would not come until after a falling away had come first, and then the son of perdition is revealed during the abomination of desolation.  This passage is a stumbling block to the pre-trib rapture theory, but it amazes me how people keep refusing to see it. 

 

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

 

 

Cheers


  • 1

#16
Montana Marv

Montana Marv

    Senior Member

  • Senior Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,063 posts
  • Gender:Male

RT

 

That is part of my point.  The Rapture Doctrine was taught in the early Church.  It did not come out of England in the 1820's.  Paul clarifies what to look for.  He did not say that this doctrine was false as some portray.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv


  • 1

#17
rollinTHUNDER

rollinTHUNDER

    Royal Member

  • Royal Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,223 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Between Daytona Beach & St. Augustine, Florida

RT
 
That is part of my point.  The Rapture Doctrine was taught in the early Church.  It did not come out of England in the 1820's.  Paul clarifies what to look for.  He did not say that this doctrine was false as some portray.
 
In Christ
Montana Marv

Not in so many words, but he warned them to not let anyone deceive them. We don't know that it was actually the rapture per se that was so concerning to them. I believe the Thessalonians were concerned because some were teaching that the resurrection was already past.

2 Timothy 2:16-18
But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. 17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; 18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

Hymenaeus and Philetus may have been telling them about many of the saints that slept arose after Christ' resurrection in Matt.27:52-53. But regardless, Paul made sure to tell the Thessalonians that our gathering unto the Lord will not happen until after the falling away and the abomination of desolation.  He made it plain as day.

 

 

Cheers


  • 1

#18
Salty

Salty

    Senior Member

  • Senior Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,280 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:I love God's Word The Holy Bible. My primary Bible is the good 'ole 1611 King James Version. I prefer the Majority Text of The New Testament used for the KJV above later translations from the Alexandrian texts like the NIV.

    I've played guitar for many years. I enjoy mixing music in Pro Tools, and doing instrumental writing. If you have a Christian song you'd like mixed PM me, I do a lot of free work.

RT

 

That is part of my point.  The Rapture Doctrine was taught in the early Church.  It did not come out of England in the 1820's.  Paul clarifies what to look for.  He did not say that this doctrine was false as some portray.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

The gathering to Christ was taught by the early Church, but not the doctrine called the Pre-Trib Rapture which did begin in 1830's Britain with the Irvingite and Brethren movements, and John Darby.


  • 1

#19
Salty

Salty

    Senior Member

  • Senior Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,280 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:I love God's Word The Holy Bible. My primary Bible is the good 'ole 1611 King James Version. I prefer the Majority Text of The New Testament used for the KJV above later translations from the Alexandrian texts like the NIV.

    I've played guitar for many years. I enjoy mixing music in Pro Tools, and doing instrumental writing. If you have a Christian song you'd like mixed PM me, I do a lot of free work.

 

RT
 
That is part of my point.  The Rapture Doctrine was taught in the early Church.  It did not come out of England in the 1820's.  Paul clarifies what to look for.  He did not say that this doctrine was false as some portray.
 
In Christ
Montana Marv

Not in so many words, but he warned them to not let anyone deceive them. We don't know that it was actually the rapture per se that was so concerning to them. I believe the Thessalonians were concerned because some were teaching that the resurrection was already past.

2 Timothy 2:16-18
But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. 17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; 18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

Hymenaeus and Philetus may have been telling them about many of the saints that slept arose after Christ' resurrection in Matt.27:52-53. But regardless, Paul made sure to tell the Thessalonians that our gathering unto the Lord will not happen until after the falling away and the abomination of desolation.  He made it plain as day.

 

 

Cheers

 

 

The subject of 2 Thessalonians 2 was not about debate of whether the resurrection had happened yet or not. It was about this:

 

II Th 2:1-2
1    Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,
2    That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
(KJV)

 

The subject was about events associated with the timing of our Lord Jesus' return and our gathering to Him. We all do not read Scripture as carefully as we should at times, which is why that phrase "nor by letter as from us" is often passed over. By that phrase Paul was pointing to a faction that had crept in among the Thessalonian Church which were pushing propaganda among them, even letters claimed to be written by the Apostles regarding the subject of verse 1.

 

So in Paul's second Epistle there to the Thessalonians, he was trying to correct their understanding and quell the propaganda that had started among them about the timing of Christ's coming and gathering of His saints. If Apostle Paul were still alive today, no doubt he'd be very busy writing a whole lot more letters to the Churches on this matter, because the enemy's propaganda machine against this timing of Christ's return has gone into overdrive.


Edited by Salty, 22 June 2014 - 11:16 AM.

  • 1

#20
inchrist

inchrist

    Veteran Member

  • Soapbox - Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 811 posts
  • Gender:Male

I concur with  rollinTHUNDER

 

By the time Paul wrote his second epistle to the Thessalonians, it was most apparent, that they did not "know all about the day of the Lord" and other such events. In his second epistle Paul makes it clear that the man of sin must first come

 

The Thessalonians thought were concerned because they thought the resurrection was already past. It has nothing to do with a so called rapture.


  • 1




0 user(s) are browsing this forum

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

Worthy Christian Forums - Christian Message Boards - 1999-2015 part of the Worthy Network