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Should the Bride of Christ Return to its Hebrew Roots?

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#21
nebula

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Not sure what you mean by that?

#22
He giveth more grace

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Not sure what you mean by that?

I am protecting myself from getting in trouble with the staff. Right, it is better not to post if you fear you will write something inappropriate, I have to think things out, or move on.

#23
TrackerJack

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So, as Christians, we get to pick and choose parts of the old testament to follow.

The Ten Commandments .... oh, I don't like observing the Sabbath .... lets make it 9 Commandments ...

But my Pastor says we should Tithe.... I guess we're back up to 10 commandments ...

How do YOU rationalize your sin?

I'm pretty sure its laid out in black, white, and red. You don't have to add to it. And you shouldn't take away from it either.

#24
He giveth more grace

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So, as Christians, we get to pick and choose parts of the old testament to follow.

The Ten Commandments .... oh, I don't like observing the Sabbath .... lets make it 9 Commandments ...

But my Pastor says we should Tithe.... I guess we're back up to 10 commandments ...

How do YOU rationalize your sin?

I'm pretty sure its laid out in black, white, and red. You don't have to add to it. And you shouldn't take away from it either.

We have a fight-picker in our midst. Fight, Fight! :clap:

#25
He giveth more grace

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Tracker Jack, your a newbie here and you are already accusing us of sin, not a way to fit in, and make friends.

Have you heard of the Grace of God?

32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Roman 8

God doesn't condemn us of sin, yet you in your exalted cleanness and purity do. :-)

I am sorry Tracker Jack, for being so nasty and I am sorry, Golden Eagle, for bringing nasty to your thread.

This is one offense of mine that the Mod's should have caught, i called Jack a Newbie, I have been a member since 20006 and that doesn't make me anything, we are all accountable.

I tried my best to make amend's.

#26
GoldenEagle

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No, Gentiles are not required to become Jews. (Just as Jews should not be required to become Gentiles - I know that's another debate, but this is how 'the Church" has treated the Jews the past 1900 years.)

However, there is no indication the original congregations (where the Gentile-believers came from the group of "God-fearers" who sat in on the Synagogue meetings) did not honor such things as gathering on the Jewish Sabbath, celebrating the Feasts of the Lord, . . . basically worshiping God as the Jews did.


Right, early Christians were primarily Jews. Jews were leaders of the Church. So it is natural to follow to propose that the early church worshipped God by celebrating Jewish festivals. However…

There is a difference between the obligation to the Law and that of free-will celebration.


I agree the celebration of Jewish feasts is a freedom not an obligation for Gentiles.

I've participated in a few Passover Seders, and the parallels of the ceremony elements to the sacrifice/death of Jesus and hope for His resurrection and return are quite remarkable - even the traditions that had developed over the years (i.e. the Hidden Matza).

It was also an eye-opener to discover that "Pentecost" is the Greek word used for the Jewish Feast of Weeks, the feast celebrating the Giving of the Law. The parallel being that 50 days after Jesus rose, the New Law was given. file:///C:\Users\keyjw\AppData\Local\Temp\1\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.png(The prophecy of writing the Law on our hearts.)

Then it was pointed out to me how Jesus died at the same time the the Passover Lamb was sacrificed at the Temple.

And Jesus rose from the dead on the day the Jews were celebrating the Feast of First Fruits.


Can you see that these Feasts were designed by the Lord for His people to join into His Passion?


I agree that partaking in Jewish feasts can be eye openers. I’ve participated in several Jewish Passover Seders. They were quite a stretching, eye opening experience.

My concern is when people take things to the extreme and say that everyone to be a Christian must partake of these feasts.




The Hebrew roots we need to pursue is biblical understanding. Looking at the old testament the way the apostles read and taught the OT. We should have never left our Hebrew roots when it comes to biblical understanding. The scriptures are more than history and literature and for the most part that is the way we have been taught them. It isn't wrong to learn that way but we will never see the depth and flow of scripture thinking in those terms. We need to take things further.

So yes, the bride needs to return to her Hebrew roots.


There is so much sense and logic in your comment.


I agree with Zemke especially this sentence in bold. Once again my concern is for people not to become legalistic about it. And of course the other concern is for those who do this to not fall away from the faith in Christ.

#27
GoldenEagle

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a. So, as Christians, we get to pick and choose parts of the old testament to follow.

b. The Ten Commandments .... oh, I don't like observing the Sabbath .... lets make it 9 Commandments ...

c. But my Pastor says we should Tithe.... I guess we're back up to 10 commandments ...

d. How do YOU rationalize your sin?

e. I'm pretty sure its laid out in black, white, and red. You don't have to add to it. And you shouldn't take away from it either.


Hi TrackerJack. I’m not sure who this is directed towards. I wanted to remind us all of what I posted in the OP. “Let us remember humility, as Believers we are heirs of God with Christ. (Philippians 2:3; 1 Peter 5:5, Romans 8:17) Remember we are to seek restoration with a spirit of gentleness. (Galatians 6:1) We are to be kind and tenderhearted to one another. (Ephesians 5:32)

As to your comments/questions:

a. As Christians we are free from the bondage of the law (Gal. 5:1 and Rom. 8:2). We Gentile Christians are free from Jewish Ceremonial laws such as circumcision (Acts 15:1-29). Even though on a side note I think there are good reasons to get circumcised.

b. I agree the Sabbath in the OT is the day of rest dedicated to God. But ware not to live our lives and worship God on just one day of the week. As Christians our bodies are God’s temple (1 Cor. 6:19-20). We are free in Christ (Gal. 5:1 and Rom. 8:2). We are to commit our way to the Lord, trust Him, and our ways will be established (Psalm 37:5, Prov. 16:3) Today Christians celebrate God’s grace often on Sundays which is the day many believe Christ rose from the dead.

c. We are instructed to give what God lays on our hearts cheerfully. (2 Cor. 9:7) A tenth of our income (or tithe) is just a start I believe. However, is a thread on this topic if you would like to discuss tithing further: http://www.worthychr...157394-tithing/

d. Personally, I don’t try to rationalize my sin. When I do God reminds me of my shortcomings and His Holy Spirit convicts me.

e. I’m not sure what we’re talking about. What is being added to the Bible or taken away? Please clarify.


So, as Christians, we get to pick and choose parts of the old testament to follow.

The Ten Commandments .... oh, I don't like observing the Sabbath .... lets make it 9 Commandments ...

But my Pastor says we should Tithe.... I guess we're back up to 10 commandments ...

How do YOU rationalize your sin?

I'm pretty sure its laid out in black, white, and red. You don't have to add to it. And you shouldn't take away from it either.

We have a fight-picker in our midst. Fight, Fight! file:///C:UserskeyjwAppDataLocalTemp1msohtmlclip11clip_image001.gif


God doesn't condemn us of sin, yet you in your exalted cleanness and purity do. :-)


Monarchy, I appreciate your encouragement brother throughout this thread to me. However, see above comments in bold. This is not very helpful would you agree? Especially considering Tracker Jack as you mentioned is newer to the forum than you. ;) Please let’s try to discuss these things in a spirit of humility, kindness, tenderheartedness, gentleness, and in a spirit of restoration. Also let us remember how to confront brothers/sisters in love (Matthew 18:15-19).

To both of you I ask that you receive this with the spirit in which it was intended. God bless you!

Humbly In Christ,
Eagle

Edited by GoldenEagle, 15 October 2012 - 09:12 AM.


#28
He giveth more grace

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God doesn't condemn us of sin, yet you in your exalted cleanness and purity do. :-)


Monarchy, I appreciate your encouragement brother throughout this thread to me. However, see above comments in bold. This is not very helpful would you agree? Especially considering Tracker Jack as you mentioned is newer to the forum than you. ;) Please let’s try to discuss these things in a spirit of humility, kindness, tenderheartedness, gentleness, and in a spirit of restoration. Also let us remember how to confront brothers/sisters in love (Matthew 18:15-19).

To both of you I ask that you receive this with the spirit in which it was intended. God bless you!

I receive that way, Brother! His wrong doesn't justify my wrong. :1: Darn, I hate to admit this, but I just got though saying that God doesn't condemn and I turn around and condemned.

#29
nebula

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My concern is when people take things to the extreme and say that everyone to be a Christian must partake of these feasts.


Likewise, it grieves me when Christians treat the Feasts as bondage and respond in arms against Gentile-Christians celebrating them for any reason. :(




The Hebrew roots we need to pursue is biblical understanding. Looking at the old testament the way the apostles read and taught the OT. We should have never left our Hebrew roots when it comes to biblical understanding. The scriptures are more than history and literature and for the most part that is the way we have been taught them. It isn't wrong to learn that way but we will never see the depth and flow of scripture thinking in those terms. We need to take things further.

So yes, the bride needs to return to her Hebrew roots.

There is so much sense and logic in your comment.

I agree with Zemke especially this sentence in bold. Once again my concern is for people not to become legalistic about it. And of course the other concern is for those who do this to not fall away from the faith in Christ.


"...the Greeks desire knowledge."

The Christianity we grew up with is a Greek-based religion, built and established upon knowledge.

The Ancient Jewish faith (which is different from modern Judaism, in case you didn't know), was - believe it or not - established on experience. This is how Eastern thought works. If you notice the OT speaks more of man's experience with God than it does teaching. Even the Torah is rooted and grounded on experiences, if you look closely.

I believe this is more along the lines of what Selene meant. We need to read the Bible though Hebrew eyes rather than Greek eyes.

I hope you understand that of which I speak.

#30
He giveth more grace

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The Christianity we grew up with is a Greek-based religion, built and established upon knowledge.

The Ancient Jewish faith (which is different from modern Judaism, in case you didn't know), was - believe it or not - established on experience. This is how Eastern thought works. If you notice the OT speaks more of man's experience with God than it does teaching. Even the Torah is rooted and grounded on experiences, if you look closely.

I believe this is more along the lines of what Selene meant. We need to read the Bible though Hebrew eyes rather than Greek eyes.

I hope you understand that of which I speak.

On this (bolded) point, I agree with you, Neb, but to say, it is totally bad, I don't know, I've got to go away and think on it.

#31
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My concern is when people take things to the extreme and say that everyone to be a Christian must partake of these feasts.


Likewise, it grieves me when Christians treat the Feasts as bondage and respond in arms against Gentile-Christians celebrating them for any reason. :(




The Hebrew roots we need to pursue is biblical understanding. Looking at the old testament the way the apostles read and taught the OT. We should have never left our Hebrew roots when it comes to biblical understanding. The scriptures are more than history and literature and for the most part that is the way we have been taught them. It isn't wrong to learn that way but we will never see the depth and flow of scripture thinking in those terms. We need to take things further.

So yes, the bride needs to return to her Hebrew roots.

There is so much sense and logic in your comment.

I agree with Zemke especially this sentence in bold. Once again my concern is for people not to become legalistic about it. And of course the other concern is for those who do this to not fall away from the faith in Christ.


"...the Greeks desire knowledge."

The Christianity we grew up with is a Greek-based religion, built and established upon knowledge.

The Ancient Jewish faith (which is different from modern Judaism, in case you didn't know), was - believe it or not - established on experience. This is how Eastern thought works. If you notice the OT speaks more of man's experience with God than it does teaching. Even the Torah is rooted and grounded on experiences, if you look closely.

I believe this is more along the lines of what Selene meant. We need to read the Bible though Hebrew eyes rather than Greek eyes.

I hope you understand that of which I speak.

[/font]

I agree context is important. Yet God's Word is alive and meaningful today.

But what of people who take an extreme on this view? That everything is about experience? The Creator (through God's Word) no longer becomes the focus but rather what can be experienced through creation and the human being (possibly labelled mysticism or spiritualism?). There is a tendency to move away from God's Word when one relies more and more on one's experience. There is even the possiblity of turning away from the faith or rejecting God altogether.

#32
nebula

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The Christianity we grew up with is a Greek-based religion, built and established upon knowledge.

The Ancient Jewish faith (which is different from modern Judaism, in case you didn't know), was - believe it or not - established on experience. This is how Eastern thought works. If you notice the OT speaks more of man's experience with God than it does teaching. Even the Torah is rooted and grounded on experiences, if you look closely.

I believe this is more along the lines of what Selene meant. We need to read the Bible though Hebrew eyes rather than Greek eyes.

I hope you understand that of which I speak.

On this (bolded) point, I agree with you, Neb, but to say, it is totally bad, I don't know, I've got to go away and think on it.


I didn't say it was totally bad.

#33
nebula

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My concern is when people take things to the extreme and say that everyone to be a Christian must partake of these feasts.


Likewise, it grieves me when Christians treat the Feasts as bondage and respond in arms against Gentile-Christians celebrating them for any reason. :(




The Hebrew roots we need to pursue is biblical understanding. Looking at the old testament the way the apostles read and taught the OT. We should have never left our Hebrew roots when it comes to biblical understanding. The scriptures are more than history and literature and for the most part that is the way we have been taught them. It isn't wrong to learn that way but we will never see the depth and flow of scripture thinking in those terms. We need to take things further.

So yes, the bride needs to return to her Hebrew roots.

There is so much sense and logic in your comment.

I agree with Zemke especially this sentence in bold. Once again my concern is for people not to become legalistic about it. And of course the other concern is for those who do this to not fall away from the faith in Christ.


"...the Greeks desire knowledge."

The Christianity we grew up with is a Greek-based religion, built and established upon knowledge.

The Ancient Jewish faith (which is different from modern Judaism, in case you didn't know), was - believe it or not - established on experience. This is how Eastern thought works. If you notice the OT speaks more of man's experience with God than it does teaching. Even the Torah is rooted and grounded on experiences, if you look closely.

I believe this is more along the lines of what Selene meant. We need to read the Bible though Hebrew eyes rather than Greek eyes.

I hope you understand that of which I speak.

[/font]

I agree context is important. Yet God's Word is alive and meaningful today.

But what of people who take an extreme on this view? That everything is about experience? The Creator (through God's Word) no longer becomes the focus but rather what can be experienced through creation and the human being (possibly labelled mysticism or spiritualism?). There is a tendency to move away from God's Word when one relies more and more on one's experience. There is even the possiblity of turning away from the faith or rejecting God altogether.


I do not mean to advocate any extremes.

What I hear time and time again, though, is the devaluing and denouncing of experience.

#34
GoldenEagle

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I do not mean to advocate any extremes.

What I hear time and time again, though, is the devaluing and denouncing of experience.


I see. Okay gotcha.

Possible to explain a little further this part in bold?

#35
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Since the Bride of Messiah is New Jerusalem, then anyone who considers themselves to be part of the Bride needs to be found there. Even the "church""

#36
nebula

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I do not mean to advocate any extremes.

What I hear time and time again, though, is the devaluing and denouncing of experience.

I see. Okay gotcha.

Possible to explain a little further this part in bold?


Several times in theological discussions and debates, as soon as someone mentions what they learned through experience, some posters will devalue and denounce experiences as valid for learning.

Basically, when experience goes against someone's theology, they will denounce the validity of experience, claiming that experience should never trump "the Word" - when in reality the accuser is convinced that his theology is "the Word" and not a possible misinterpretation or misapplication of the Word.

A theology that doesn't hold up to experience, I think, needs to be re-evaluated.

But again, people can't separate what the Word actually says verses their theology of the Word.


Sorry if I sound like I'm rambling a bit.


But God is Someone to be experienced, not a concept to be theologized.

Yet churches don't teach us how to experience God.

#37
nebula

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There is nowhere in Scripture where we are to take Jewish traditions as a way to interpret Scriptures.


I present you with this:

The Feast of Tabernacles is an eight day festival* that begins at sundown on the first day of the feast (see the Jewish Calendar from Judaism 101).


The Gospels record that our Lord Jesus not only celebrated the festival, but He took traditional elements of the celebration and applied them to His own life and mission. We find this particularly in John 7 and 8 where Jesus uses two traditional symbols from the Feast of Tabernacles celebration, water and light, to help the people understand who He is and what He offers.


In order to understand Jesus' teaching here, we need a bit of background from Leviticus 23. There, Moses instructed the people that the first day and the eighth day of the festival were to be special days of rest, set apart from the others. But the seventh day became known as Hoshana Rabba, "the Great Day." My people developed special observances and traditions to mark this special day in Israel. The most spectacular of these was the water drawing ceremony.


Imagine a whole parade of worshipers and flutists led by the priest to the pool of Siloam (where Jesus told the blind man to bathe his eyes after He put clay over them). The priest has two golden pitchers. One is for wine. He fills the other with water from the pool. As the flutes continue to play, a choir of Israelites chants Psalm 118. The whole procession heads back to the Temple through the Water Gate. A trumpet sounds as the priest enters the Temple area. He approaches the altar where two silver basins are waiting. He pours wine into one of the basins as a drink offering to the Lord and water from the pool of Siloam into the other.


The whole ceremony, with the parade and the flutes and the singing, was such a joyful occasion that one of the ancient rabbis wrote: "Anyone who has not seen this water ceremony has never seen rejoicing in his life."


The ceremony was to thank God for His bounty and to ask Him to provide rain for the crops in the coming year. Today, many people take water for granted. We simply turn the tap and voilà—water! Not so in the Middle East during the first century. Water was often scarce. The people were very much aware of their dependence on God for the rains that were so vital for the preservation of life. No wonder the prophets came to see rain as a symbol of salvation and the work of God's Holy Spirit:

I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean… (Ezekiel 36:25).


No wonder then that Jesus stood in the Temple on this great day of the feast and cried out:


If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water (John 7:37-38).


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#38
Massorite

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Should the Bride of Christ (the Church) Return to its Hebrew Roots?

I'm also interested in Scripture that backs this line of thinking.

In Christ,
Jon

Ground Rules:

Let us remember humility, as Believers we are heirs of God with Christ. (Philippians 2:3; 1 Peter 5:5, Romans 8:17) Remember we are to seek restoration with a spirit of gentleness. (Galatians 6:1) We are to be kind and tenderhearted to one another. (Ephesians 5:32)

No we should not return to our Hebrew roots. However we should return to our Christian roots which are the doctrinal beliefs, love and the ministries of the early church.
Because God is calling us back to basics. The early church Christians had something within themselves that looked so wonderful to the pagans that pagans would convert even though they knew that they might be fed to lions or jailed or beaten, tortured, used as torches at Roman parties and afflicted by all manner of horrible things. The pagans wanted what the Christians had but today the pagans want nothing to do with what the Christians have because the body of Christ has lost its integrity in the eyes of the world.




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