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Does your view on Salvation affect your ideas on End times?

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#1
Joshua David

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     When I was young, my mom carried me to different churches, looking for one that felt 'right' to her.  She took me to different kinds of denominations, and I sat and listened to what all these preachers had to say.  The one thing I understood for sure was that all these churches taught something different and they all thought it was correct.  The reason that they all thought it was correct, was because they all 'proved' their position by scripture.  They would  use this scripture and that scripture, and they all seemed to make really good points.  

 

     Needless to say, I was confused.  How could the same bible be used to 'prove' different things.  So I stopped accepting what other people taught about the bible, and started studying it for myself.  I would still listen to what people were saying, I started reading the entire chapter of the scriptures so that I could get the context of what was being said.  I started doing word studies on the scriptures, so that I understood what the scripture meant in the original language that it was spoken or written. But most of all, I started to form my own opinions, that were based on my own study, and stopped relying on other people's interpretation.  Because what I discovered, was that EVERYONE had their own interpretation, EVERYONE believed that the Holy Spirit led them to 'their' conclusion, and very few were actually honest enough to admit even the possibility that what they believed could be wrong.  They believed what they believed, and everyone else was wrong.  I will fully admit that I could be wrong.  I don't think I am, but I could be.

 

 

     One of the topics that came up most often was the subject of salvation.  Some churches believed that you could lose your salvation, ( and had scriptures to 'prove' it ) and other churches were equally convinced that you could not lose your salvation ( and had scriptures to 'prove' it. )  What I found was that the churches that believed you could lose your salvation NEVER talked about the scriptures that seemed to indicate otherwise.  They never addressed them, they never explained them, they never quoted them, and most of the Christians that went to the church never even knew that those scriptures were in the bible.  The exact same thing could be said for the churches that believed that you could not lose your salvation.  And what end up happening is that most Christians could 'parrot' what their church believed, and could quote scripture supporting their position, but very few could actually defend what they believed.  They couldn't explain how those 'troubling' verses ( the ones used to support a different position ) fit into what they believed.

 

     So I am going to start a series of topics that have led me to my conclusions on the end times.  I am going to try not only show how I arrived at my conclusions, but will try to show how those 'troubling" verses fit into what I believe.  The reason that I put this topic here is because all of these subjects led me to the conclusion that the pretrib rapture is true, and that is the central point to this series.

 

So now that the intro is complete lets' get started....

 

      Salvation.  There is probably not another topic that has been more divisive than this one.  This topic has been debated throughout the entire church history.  If you have never taken the time to really study the history of the doctrine of Salvation I highly encourage you, because it is a fascinating study.  It would surprise some people to learn that what is believed about salvation today is not what the church had always taught.  But that is outside the scope of this thread.  I want to talk about how my understanding of salvation affects my understanding of the timing of the rapture.

 

         Let's start with the big question.  Once you become saved, can you lose your salvation?  The one question has divided more Christians than any other topic in history.  Why?  Well let me ask you a question?  Does the bible contain verses that seem to indicate that you can lose your salvation?  What do you think?  Does the bible contain verses that seem to indicate that you can not lose your salvation?  I  personally believe that the answer to both questions is that it does. And we are going to look at both groups.

 

Let's look at the verses that defend OSAS first.  

 

1 Cor 1:21-22 21 Now he which establisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;

22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

 

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

 

Eph 4:30  And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

 

John 10:27-29  27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

 

       And first verses really clinched it for me when I was studying this topic.  Consider this question.  Who is the responsible party in us standing firm in Christ?   If you can lose your salvation, then the question is obviously We are the responsible party.  If you can't lose your salvation, then the answer is God is the responsible party.  And the scripture clearly says that God is the responsible party.  Not only that but consider verse 22 in Eph 1.  God seals us with his Spirit.  And the Spirit is the "earnest".  What is the earnest?  The original word that Paul used was the Greek word arrabon.  Arrabon means money which is purchases is given as a pledge or downpayment that the full amount will subsequently be paid.  Now I ask you, who makes the pledge?  Us or God?  So let me paraphrase just a little.  It is God that annoints us, it is God that seals us, it is God that makes us stand fast in Christ, it is God that pledges to complete the purchase.  When is it completed?  Eph 4:30 tells us, the day of redemption.   When is that?  At the rapture.  So what is the security of our salvation based on?  Us or God?  It is God.  He is the one that made the pledge.  He is the one that sealed us, He is the one that promises to complete our redemption.  

 

So what do you think?  Do you agree so far?  Why or why not...

 

 

As Iron sharpens Iron, 

 

Joshua David



#2
other one

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No it does not.



#3
dscapp

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So what do you think?  Do you agree so far?  Why or why not...

 

I think that people who believe OSAS is false take scriptures out of context on a daily basis.



#4
Joshua David

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So what do you think?  Do you agree so far?  Why or why not...

 

I think that people who believe OSAS is false take scriptures out of context on a daily basis.

 

One of the interesting things is that the bible does not talk about being saved in the Old Testament in the same sense as it does in the New Testament.  Whenever the bible uses the word saved in the Old Testament it is talking about their physical life being saved.  But as we often find, what is external and physical in the Old Testament becomes internal and spiritual in the New.   
 
While the Old Testament doesn't really talk about salvation, it does talk about God expectation of obedience to the Law for the Children of Israel.  If you did not obey the Law, or failed to bring a suitable sacrifice when you did sin, then you were cut off from the Children of Israel, and were forbidden to partake of the blessings of Israel.
 
So are there scriptures in the New Testament that seem to indicate that you can lose your salvation?  Yes there are, and ironically enough, Jesus talked more about losing your salvation than any other person in the New Testament.
 
Let's look a just a few examples....     Matt 24:13  But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.
 
Also let's consider the parable of the 10 virgins.  Because of space, I won't type the entire parable, but just the highlights....  All 10 virgins start with oil in their lamps.  All ten virgins fall sleep.  When the call came in that the Bridegroom was coming, the five wise virgins, who maintained their supply of oil were allowed to enter the wedding feast.  The five foolish, who let their supply of oil run out was not allowed to enter the wedding feast.  
 
There are some others but these two are the two strongest arguments that is always used to support the idea that you can lose your salvation.  So let's take a closer look at both of these.
 
Matt 24 is often referred to as the little apocalypse, since it gives such a good summary of the Book of Revelations.  Almost the entire chapter is Jesus' reply to his disciples questions concerning the endtime, his second coming, and the end of the age.  We start in verse 4-8 with the birth pains, then increase in lawlessness, and starting at verse 15 it talks about the abomination of desolation.  When happens in the middle of the tribulation.  Then we get to the Second Coming of Christ.  Right in the middle of all this we have that little verse that states he who endures until the end shall be saved.  
 
Based on my first post, I think everyone knows that I believe that during this current age, once a person is saved, their salvation is secure, and I believe that the evidence of this is very very strong.  But Jesus says here that only he who endures until the end will be saved.  This shows a great fundamental shift.  As great a fundamental shift as when we moved from the Age of Law to the Age of Grace.  The entire context of Matt 24 is the Tribulation period up until the Second coming.  Therefore it shows that during the Tribulation period, the Age of Grace, and the promise of eternal security is not in effect.  Therefore, since we are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption, ( rapture) then the only way that all these verses can be true is that the day of redemption ( the rapture ) happens before the Tribulation period, and this is why the Saints must endure until the end to be saved.
 
The very next chapter Matt 25 starts out with the parable of the 10 virgins.  There are a lot of commentaries out there that suggest that this parable is about the church.  I disagree.  Again for the same reasons as above.  Matt 24 and 25 are about the time of the tribulation.  The virgins are not the bride, we would call them bridesmaids today.  These are the tribulation saints.  In fact the one thing that no one should question is the timing of this parable, it is the second coming.  Yes, I agree that all 10 virgins had oil to start with, they were all 'saved' but the wise maintained their oil, while the foolish did not.  This parable is about the fundamental shift in the conditions of salvation during the tribulation period vs the conditions of salvation during the church age.  Therefore the church age must come to a close ( day of redemption ) before this parable takes place ( the Tribulation preceeding the second coming of Jesus ) 
 
Does anyone have any other point to raise??
 
As Iron sharpens Iron, 
 
Joshua David


#5
Persuaded

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So are there scriptures in the New Testament that seem to indicate that you can lose your salvation?
....
There are some others but these two are the two strongest arguments that is always used to support the idea that you can lose your salvation. 

 

The way to get a church out of only reading verses that support a particular view is to attend one where the whole Bible is taught, cover to cover, continually. How many pastors can say:

 

"Therefore I testify to you this day that I [am] innocent of the blood of all [men].
"For I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God.
 
-I'd suggest, that unless your pastor is Paul himself, or somebody with similar apostolic authority, the only way to teach the "whole counsel of God" today is to teach the whole Bible.
 

 

I generally agree that many of the prophecies and promises made to Israel do not apply to the church the way that we are so often taught today. So I won't argue that point, but the OSAS point you raised. (where better than an eschatology thread to discuss security!) I've probably never considered security in the rapture context, so maybe this will lead somewhere.

 

On the security versus responsibility scale, I probably fall pretty close to the security side: OSAS, except there seems to be scripture to support the idea that God won't violate my free will if I deliberately reject Him. But with OSAS comes a high bar for the "S". The concept of belief has a strong component of obedience. It doesn't just mean acknowledge or give assent to or profess Jesus's completed work, but to fully reckon, rely upon, and give yourself over to. That can be accomplished with a simple profession, but unless that simple profession is my dying words there ought to be evidence afterward of that belief/obedience.

 

The passage that pushes me hardest away from full OSAS is the "today's" at the end of Hebrews 3:

 

Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;
but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,
while it is said: "Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion."
For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, [was it] not all who came out of Egypt, [led] by Moses?
Now with whom was He angry forty years? [Was it] not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness?
And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey?
So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
 
He's referring to Num 14 and Deut 1, where Moses describes the rebellion of the people based on the negative report of the ten spies. They refuse to go against the Amorites when God tells them to, God gets mad and gives them the 40 year punishment, then the next day the people repent and go to fight the Amorites and are unsuccessful. It appears God's offer was good for one day only, "today", as Hebrews puts it. I can construct some arguments why this applies to reward versus salvation, but it seems best to just do everything I can to never tell God "I'll obey tomorrow".


#6
19Duggarfan

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Don't agree with the Pre-Trib, but do agree with the OSAS. 

 

But Joshua David what would you said to those who believe they can lose their salvation according to such passages as Hebrews 6:1-8; 10:26-29; and II Peter 2:22?



#7
Salty

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Don't agree with the Pre-Trib, but do agree with the OSAS. 

 

But Joshua David what would you said to those who believe they can lose their salvation according to such passages as Hebrews 6:1-8; 10:26-29; and II Peter 2:22?

 

One of the main problems with the OSAS doctrine of men, is that it does not account for the many Scripture warnings for brethren to not be deceived by the coming Pseudo-Christ our Lord Jesus and His Apostles warned about, with the result of a believer falling away to "walk in shame" (Rev.16:15), or Christ closing the door upon them (five foolish virgins of Matt.25) when our Lord Jesus appears.

 

It instead assumes that all one must do is believe and confess Jesus as The Christ, and then nothing else, when He instead strongly commanded us to 'watch' in these final days so as to not be deceived by the coming Antichrist. Thus it does not account for brethren that fall away from Him to worship the coming Pseudo-Christ in ignorance, which is how those who fall away will walk naked and in shame when our Lord Jesus does return, and will be assigned their place among the unbelievers...

 

Luke 12

45 But and if that servant say in his heart, "My lord delayeth his coming"; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;

46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.



#8
Last Daze

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So what do you think?  Do you agree so far?  Why or why not...

 

 

I've always wondered why this is an issue.  Is it an effort to establish a "baseline" of sin that we can "get away with" and still be saved?  Or a means to control people through fear?

 

Why not teach people to learn and do the will of God?  Then it becomes much less of an issue, if any issue at all.



#9
19Duggarfan

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Don't agree with the Pre-Trib, but do agree with the OSAS. 

 

But Joshua David what would you said to those who believe they can lose their salvation according to such passages as Hebrews 6:1-8; 10:26-29; and II Peter 2:22?

 

One of the main problems with the OSAS doctrine of men, is that it does not account for the many Scripture warnings for brethren to not be deceived by the coming Pseudo-Christ our Lord Jesus and His Apostles warned about, with the result of a believer falling away to "walk in shame" (Rev.16:15), or Christ closing the door upon them (five foolish virgins of Matt.25) when our Lord Jesus appears.

 

It instead assumes that all one must do is believe and confess Jesus as The Christ, and then nothing else, when He instead strongly commanded us to 'watch' in these final days so as to not be deceived by the coming Antichrist. Thus it does not account for brethren that fall away from Him to worship the coming Pseudo-Christ in ignorance, which is how those who fall away will walk naked and in shame when our Lord Jesus does return, and will be assigned their place among the unbelievers...

 

Luke 12

45 But and if that servant say in his heart, "My lord delayeth his coming"; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;

46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

 

 

OSAS believe that if one is truly save their heart, is as Luke's Gospel states:

But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

Luke 8:15

In this parable of the Sower and the Seed in Luke 8:4-15; we see one type of seed, yet four kinds of ground which our people's hearts.  Only one is obviously bad, while two appear to be good but are actually bad.  Yet the seed that fell on the good ground brought forth fruit, Luke 8:8.

 

I also see John telling of these two types of ground which are apparently good but actually bad.

They when out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

I John 2:19

I really like the fact that when many of the disciples left Jesus we see what number but 666.

From that time many of His disciples went back, and walked no more with Him.

John 6:66



#10
other one

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So what do you think?  Do you agree so far?  Why or why not...

 

 

I've always wondered why this is an issue.  Is it an effort to establish a "baseline" of sin that we can "get away with" and still be saved?  Or a means to control people through fear?

 

Why not teach people to learn and do the will of God?  Then it becomes much less of an issue, if any issue at all.

 

Well, there you go already.....   been here for only a month and already spreading good sense around....



#11
Salty

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Don't agree with the Pre-Trib, but do agree with the OSAS. 

 

But Joshua David what would you said to those who believe they can lose their salvation according to such passages as Hebrews 6:1-8; 10:26-29; and II Peter 2:22?

 

One of the main problems with the OSAS doctrine of men, is that it does not account for the many Scripture warnings for brethren to not be deceived by the coming Pseudo-Christ our Lord Jesus and His Apostles warned about, with the result of a believer falling away to "walk in shame" (Rev.16:15), or Christ closing the door upon them (five foolish virgins of Matt.25) when our Lord Jesus appears.

 

It instead assumes that all one must do is believe and confess Jesus as The Christ, and then nothing else, when He instead strongly commanded us to 'watch' in these final days so as to not be deceived by the coming Antichrist. Thus it does not account for brethren that fall away from Him to worship the coming Pseudo-Christ in ignorance, which is how those who fall away will walk naked and in shame when our Lord Jesus does return, and will be assigned their place among the unbelievers...

 

Luke 12

45 But and if that servant say in his heart, "My lord delayeth his coming"; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;

46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

 

 

OSAS believe that if one is truly save their heart, is as Luke's Gospel states:

But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

Luke 8:15

In this parable of the Sower and the Seed in Luke 8:4-15; we see one type of seed, yet four kinds of ground which our people's hearts.  Only one is obviously bad, while two appear to be good but are actually bad.  Yet the seed that fell on the good ground brought forth fruit, Luke 8:8.

 

I also see John telling of these two types of ground which are apparently good but actually bad.

They when out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

I John 2:19

I really like the fact that when many of the disciples left Jesus we see what number but 666.

From that time many of His disciples went back, and walked no more with Him.

John 6:66

 

 

So then, don't bother keeping His Word if that's what you want, and remember, His commanding us to 'watch' for the end to not be deceived, is a command, not a choice. Doctrine's of men like OSAS aren't going to get you out of that responsibility Jesus gave His.






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