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Was AD 70 the Parousia?

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Hi Roy,

Out of interest Roy, would you include yourself in the following quote?

This Philip Mauro character is just as mixed up as anyone on this forum! -Roy

I don't feel like I'm mixed up.

Peter

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You're right when you said, "Concerning the kingdom, Jesus said in Matthew 16:28 that some then alive would see Him coming in His kingdom," but what you neglected to see was that He was talking about a FORETASTE! A SAMPLING IN A VISION of how it will be when Yeshua` will be "coming in His Kingdom!" Look at it again:

Matthew 16:28-17:13

28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,

2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.

7 And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.

8 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.

9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?

11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.

12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.

13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

KJV

Mark 9:1-13

1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

2 And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.

3 And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them.

4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.

5 And Peter answered and said to Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

6 For he wist not what to say; for they were sore afraid.

7 And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

8 And suddenly, when they had looked round about, they saw no man any more, save Jesus only with themselves.

9 And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead.

10 And they kept that saying with themselves, questioning one with another what the rising from the dead should mean.

11 And they asked him, saying, Why say the scribes that Elias must first come?

12 And he answered and told them, Elias verily cometh first, and restoreth all things; and how it is written of the Son of man, that he must suffer many things, and be set at nought.

13 But I say unto you, That Elias is indeed come, and they have done unto him whatsoever they listed, as it is written of him.

KJV

Luke 9:27-36

27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

28 And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.

29 And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.

30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:

31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.

32 But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him.

33 And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said.

34 While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud.

35 And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

36 And when the voice was past, Jesus was found alone. And they kept it close, and told no man in those days any of those things which they had seen.

KJV

See how His statement in all three versions was immediately followed by the transfiguration? The transfiguration WAS the vision of His coming in His Kingdom, and some of them, namely Shim`own Kefa, Ya`aqov, and Yochanan (Simon Peter, James and John) SAW THE VISION, just as Yeshua` predicted! –Roy

Shalom Roy,

I’ve digested what you are saying more during this weekend. Yes, these disciples were eyewitnesses of His glory and tasted the coming of His kingdom, as Peter alludes to in 2 Peter 1:16-18. But that still does not identify when the kingdom would come, even if they did get a glimpse of it then. You are reading thousands of years into it. You have to ignore a lot of Scripture to have such a view for Scripture screams 1st century fulfillment.

Note also in Matthew 16:27 is the phrase ‘the Son of Man is going to come in His Father’s glory.’ I’ve mentioned this before. How did the Father come in the OT? Jesus was coming in like manner. He came with judgment but not physically. He used other nations and calamities in judgment.

Another question to consider in the Transfiguration is what is the significance of the appearance of Moses and Elijah? They were both from the Old Covenant order of things and they were insignificant compared to Jesus, on whom the Father was well pleased. Jesus was the one who was coming with the new and better covenant, and soon. Jesus was the one who was coming in judgment on this unbelieving generation who would not accept Him (with the better covenant) and avenge the blood of all the prophets as well as bringing salvation for those who were waiting for Him. The theme of avenging the blood is a common theme throughout Scripture, coming to fruition in the NT. The theme of a better covenant is also constant in the NT.

Matthew 23 is a case in point. Jesus is pronouncing woes/judgments on these old covenant teachers and believers. He says to THEM that all the righteous blood shed on earth will be judged in this generation and He even tells them that their house (the city and temple) will be left to them desolate.

Matthew 23:1-2

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

Seven Woes

23 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat.

Matthew 23:29-38

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

29 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. 30 And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31 So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers!

33 “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.

37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, YOU who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate.

This theme is prevalent in the old and new testaments concerning Jerusalem and judgment for slaughtering the prophets and all those sent to them.

Luke 21:20-23

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people.

Luke 19:39-44

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

39 Some of the Pharisees in the crowd said to Jesus, “Teacher, rebuke your disciples!”

40 “I tell you,” he replied, “if they keep quiet, the stones will cry out.”

41 As he approached Jerusalem and saw the city, he wept over it 42 and said, “If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace—but now it is hidden from your eyes. 43 The days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you and encircle you and hem you in on every side. 44 They will dash you to the ground, you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of God’s coming to you.”

1 Thessalonians 2:14-16

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

14 For you, brothers, became imitators of God’s churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own countrymen the same things those churches suffered from the Jews, 15 who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to all men 16 in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.

Notice the common theme – judgment on the Jews who are responsible for killing the Lord and all the prophets, both OT and NT prophets. Jesus makes this plain and the apostles make this plain. God is going to avenge these prophets so that all that is written may be fulfilled concerning His judgment.

Deuteronomy 32:16-43

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

16 They made him jealous with their foreign gods

and angered him with their detestable idols.

17 They sacrificed to demons, which are not God—

gods they had not known,

gods that recently appeared,

gods your fathers did not fear.

18 You deserted the Rock, who fathered you;

you forgot the God who gave you birth.

19 The Lord saw this and rejected them

because he was angered by his sons and daughters.

20 “I will hide my face from them,” he said,

“and see what their end will be;

for they are a perverse generation,

children who are unfaithful.

21 They made me jealous by what is no god

and angered me with their worthless idols.

I will make them envious by those who are not a people;

I will make them angry by a nation that has no understanding.

22 For a fire has been kindled by my wrath,

one that burns to the realm of death below.

It will devour the earth and its harvests

and set afire the foundations of the mountains.

23 “I will heap calamities upon them

and spend my arrows against them.

24 I will send wasting famine against them,

consuming pestilence and deadly plague;

I will send against them the fangs of wild beasts,

the venom of vipers that glide in the dust.

25 In the street the sword will make them childless;

in their homes terror will reign.

Young men and young women will perish,

infants and gray-haired men.

26 I said I would scatter them

and blot out their memory from mankind,

27 but I dreaded the taunt of the enemy,

lest the adversary misunderstand

and say, ‘Our hand has triumphed;

the Lord has not done all this.’”

28 They are a nation without sense,

there is no discernment in them.

29 If only they were wise and would understand this

and discern what their end will be!

30 How could one man chase a thousand,

or two put ten thousand to flight,

unless their Rock had sold them,

unless the Lord had given them up?

31 For their rock is not like our Rock,

as even our enemies concede.

32 Their vine comes from the vine of Sodom

and from the fields of Gomorrah.

Their grapes are filled with poison,

and their clusters with bitterness.

33 Their wine is the venom of serpents,

the deadly poison of cobras.

34 “Have I not kept this in reserve

and sealed it in my vaults?

35 It is mine to avenge; I will repay.

In due time their foot will slip;

their day of disaster is near

and their doom rushes upon them.”

36 The Lord will judge his people

and have compassion on his servants

when he sees their strength is gone

and no one is left, slave or free.

37 He will say: “Now where are their gods,

the rock they took refuge in,

38 the gods who ate the fat of their sacrifices

and drank the wine of their drink offerings?

Let them rise up to help you!

Let them give you shelter!

39 “See now that I myself am He!

There is no god besides me.

I put to death and I bring to life,

I have wounded and I will heal,

and no one can deliver out of my hand.

40 I lift my hand to heaven and declare:

As surely as I live forever,

41 when I sharpen my flashing sword

and my hand grasps it in judgment,

I will take vengeance on my adversaries

and repay those who hate me.

42 I will make my arrows drunk with blood,

while my sword devours flesh:

the blood of the slain and the captives,

the heads of the enemy leaders.”

43 Rejoice, O nations, with his people,

for he will avenge the blood of his servants;

he will take vengeance on his enemies

and make atonement for his land and people.

This judgment in Deuteronomy is the kind of judgment that Jesus is pronouncing on this stiff-necked people. They are heaping up their judgment to the limit. Nothing like the judgment that is coming upon them soon in that generation will ever be experienced by this nation again because their whole world of the Old Covenant they made with God is coming to an end. Throughout His three and a half year ministry Jesus keeps warning them to flee from the coming judgment.

This theme of judgment is also a common theme in the Revelation. In fact the city of Jerusalem is compared to a great prostitute (Jer. 3:1-3), Sodom (Isa. 1:21) and Babylon. The ‘great city’ of Revelation 11:8 is also the great prostitute of Revelation 17:1, a harlot (Isa. 1:9-10, 21), the ‘great city’ of Revelation 17:5-6; 17:16-18; 18:2,4-6, 8, 10, 16, 19, 20-24. A great deal could be made of these verses, but if you disagree that this is talking of Jerusalem, then ask yourself where the blood of the prophets and saints have been shed or where the Lord was slain? Ask yourself why Jesus concerned Himself so much about the avenging of this blood. How many times did the saints cry out for vengeance? Well it was fulfilled in A.D. 70.

Revelation 11:8

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

8 Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city, which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.

Revelation 18:19-24

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

19 They will throw dust on their heads, and with weeping and mourning cry out:

“‘Woe! Woe, O great city,

where all who had ships on the sea

became rich through her wealth!

In one hour she has been brought to ruin!

20 Rejoice over her, O heaven!

Rejoice, saints and apostles and prophets!

God has judged her for the way she treated you.’

21 Then a mighty angel picked up a boulder the size of a large millstone and threw it into the sea, and said:

“With such violence

the great city of Babylon will be thrown down,

never to be found again.

22 The music of harpists and musicians, flute players and trumpeters,

will never be heard in you again.

No workman of any trade

will ever be found in you again.

The sound of a millstone

will never be heard in you again.

23 The light of a lamp

will never shine in you again.

The voice of bridegroom and bride

will never be heard in you again.

Your merchants were the world’s great men.

By your magic spell all the nations were led astray.

24 In her was found the blood of prophets and of the saints,

and of all who have been killed on the earth.”

Do you notice any similarities between Revelation and Jesus’ warnings in Matthew 23? What other city ever treated the prophets and saints in this manner?

Jerusalem was meant to be the holy city, the city of the LORD, the center of God’s presence on earth, the city of the great King, the LORD God Almighty, as well as the capital and most influential city; a city in which the atonement of the people was made. Well this earth was soon to pass away, in Jesus’ generation; the heavens and the earth were going to be shaken, metaphorically speaking. God was going to abandon it once again, forsake it, this time never to return to the city. Where is God’s light and presence found in the old Jerusalem after the death of Christ except in His coming in judgment or in the body of believers that lived there? It was no longer the holy city. Jesus lamented for it. Where in the NT is the physical nation of Israel mentioned as God’s people after they reject their Messiah? Now the church is mentioned as God’s people, the true Israel of God, the remnant. The 144,000 come out of the 12 tribes of Israel during this period. If you want to be literal, how do you get 144,000 after the destruction of the city when there are no longer any genealogies? They were destroyed with the city and temple in A.D. 70, unless you know otherwise?

No, we see the New Jerusalem mentioned, the heavenly city, the new temple, the body of Christ, the new and better covenant, the Spirit of life, the seeds of promise, not the letter of death. And the transition between old and new was complete in A.D. 70. The old no longer existed after this point. No more city – destroyed and in ruins, no more nation – all dispersed, no more covenant for it could no longer be fulfilled to the letter, no more priesthood because our High Priest is after a different order, no more temple, no more genealogies, no more sacrifices of atonement for the sins of the people.

Acts 13:38-41

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

38 “Therefore, my brothers, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. 39 Through him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses. 40 Take care that what the prophets have said does not happen to you:

41 “‘Look, you scoffers,

wonder and perish,

for I am going to do something in your days

that you would never believe,

even if someone told you.’[a]

Footnotes:

  1. Acts 13:41 Hab. 1:5

As God once brought the Babylonians in judgment against His people and His holy city, so now He is going to bring the Romans in judgment of this stiff-necked people and this city. The blood of the saints was calling out, just as it was before Jerusalem fell to the Babylonians in 586 B.C. (Hab. 1:2), but now with the crucifixion and rejection of Christ they had heaped their sins to the limit. Everywhere we read that the apostles go in the Book of Acts there is Jewish opposition to the message.

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Shalom, Peter.

You're right when you said, "Concerning the kingdom, Jesus said in Matthew 16:28 that some then alive would see Him coming in His kingdom," but what you neglected to see was that He was talking about a FORETASTE! A SAMPLING IN A VISION of how it will be when Yeshua` will be "coming in His Kingdom!" Look at it again:

Matthew 16:28-17:13

28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,

2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.

7 And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.

8 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.

9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?

11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.

12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.

13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

KJV

Mark 9:1-13

1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

2 And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.

3 And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them.

4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.

5 And Peter answered and said to Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

6 For he wist not what to say; for they were sore afraid.

7 And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

8 And suddenly, when they had looked round about, they saw no man any more, save Jesus only with themselves.

9 And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead.

10 And they kept that saying with themselves, questioning one with another what the rising from the dead should mean.

11 And they asked him, saying, Why say the scribes that Elias must first come?

12 And he answered and told them, Elias verily cometh first, and restoreth all things; and how it is written of the Son of man, that he must suffer many things, and be set at nought.

13 But I say unto you, That Elias is indeed come, and they have done unto him whatsoever they listed, as it is written of him.

KJV

Luke 9:27-36

27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

28 And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.

29 And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.

30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:

31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.

32 But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him.

33 And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said.

34 While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud.

35 And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

36 And when the voice was past, Jesus was found alone. And they kept it close, and told no man in those days any of those things which they had seen.

KJV

See how His statement in all three versions was immediately followed by the transfiguration? The transfiguration WAS the vision of His coming in His Kingdom, and some of them, namely Shim`own Kefa, Ya`aqov, and Yochanan (Simon Peter, James and John) SAW THE VISION, just as Yeshua` predicted! –Roy

Shalom Roy,

I’ve digested what you are saying more during this weekend. Yes, these disciples were eyewitnesses of His glory and tasted the coming of His kingdom, as Peter alludes to in 2 Peter 1:16-18. But that still does not identify when the kingdom would come, even if they did get a glimpse of it then. You are reading thousands of years into it. You have to ignore a lot of Scripture to have such a view for Scripture screams 1st century fulfillment.

Note also in Matthew 16:27 is the phrase ‘the Son of Man is going to come in His Father’s glory.’ I’ve mentioned this before. How did the Father come in the OT? Jesus was coming in like manner. He came with judgment but not physically. He used other nations and calamities in judgment.

Another question to consider in the Transfiguration is what is the significance of the appearance of Moses and Elijah? They were both from the Old Covenant order of things and they were insignificant compared to Jesus, on whom the Father was well pleased. Jesus was the one who was coming with the new and better covenant, and soon. Jesus was the one who was coming in judgment on this unbelieving generation who would not accept Him (with the better covenant) and avenge the blood of all the prophets as well as bringing salvation for those who were waiting for Him. The theme of avenging the blood is a common theme throughout Scripture, coming to fruition in the NT. The theme of a better covenant is also constant in the NT.

Matthew 23 is a case in point. Jesus is pronouncing woes/judgments on these old covenant teachers and believers. He says to THEM that all the righteous blood shed on earth will be judged in this generation and He even tells them that their house (the city and temple) will be left to them desolate.

Matthew 23:1-2

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

Seven Woes

23 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat.

Matthew 23:29-38

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

29 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. 30 And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31 So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers!

33 “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.

37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, YOU who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate.

This theme is prevalent in the old and new testaments concerning Jerusalem and judgment for slaughtering the prophets and all those sent to them.

Luke 21:20-23

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people.

Luke 19:39-44

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

39 Some of the Pharisees in the crowd said to Jesus, “Teacher, rebuke your disciples!”

40 “I tell you,” he replied, “if they keep quiet, the stones will cry out.”

41 As he approached Jerusalem and saw the city, he wept over it 42 and said, “If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace—but now it is hidden from your eyes. 43 The days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you and encircle you and hem you in on every side. 44 They will dash you to the ground, you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of God’s coming to you.”

1 Thessalonians 2:14-16

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

14 For you, brothers, became imitators of God’s churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own countrymen the same things those churches suffered from the Jews, 15 who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to all men 16 in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.

Notice the common theme – judgment on the Jews who are responsible for killing the Lord and all the prophets, both OT and NT prophets. Jesus makes this plain and the apostles make this plain. God is going to avenge these prophets so that all that is written may be fulfilled concerning His judgment.

Deuteronomy 32:16-43

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

16 They made him jealous with their foreign gods

and angered him with their detestable idols.

17 They sacrificed to demons, which are not God—

gods they had not known,

gods that recently appeared,

gods your fathers did not fear.

18 You deserted the Rock, who fathered you;

you forgot the God who gave you birth.

19 The Lord saw this and rejected them

because he was angered by his sons and daughters.

20 “I will hide my face from them,” he said,

“and see what their end will be;

for they are a perverse generation,

children who are unfaithful.

21 They made me jealous by what is no god

and angered me with their worthless idols.

I will make them envious by those who are not a people;

I will make them angry by a nation that has no understanding.

22 For a fire has been kindled by my wrath,

one that burns to the realm of death below.

It will devour the earth and its harvests

and set afire the foundations of the mountains.

23 “I will heap calamities upon them

and spend my arrows against them.

24 I will send wasting famine against them,

consuming pestilence and deadly plague;

I will send against them the fangs of wild beasts,

the venom of vipers that glide in the dust.

25 In the street the sword will make them childless;

in their homes terror will reign.

Young men and young women will perish,

infants and gray-haired men.

26 I said I would scatter them

and blot out their memory from mankind,

27 but I dreaded the taunt of the enemy,

lest the adversary misunderstand

and say, ‘Our hand has triumphed;

the Lord has not done all this.’”

28 They are a nation without sense,

there is no discernment in them.

29 If only they were wise and would understand this

and discern what their end will be!

30 How could one man chase a thousand,

or two put ten thousand to flight,

unless their Rock had sold them,

unless the Lord had given them up?

31 For their rock is not like our Rock,

as even our enemies concede.

32 Their vine comes from the vine of Sodom

and from the fields of Gomorrah.

Their grapes are filled with poison,

and their clusters with bitterness.

33 Their wine is the venom of serpents,

the deadly poison of cobras.

34 “Have I not kept this in reserve

and sealed it in my vaults?

35 It is mine to avenge; I will repay.

In due time their foot will slip;

their day of disaster is near

and their doom rushes upon them.”

36 The Lord will judge his people

and have compassion on his servants

when he sees their strength is gone

and no one is left, slave or free.

37 He will say: “Now where are their gods,

the rock they took refuge in,

38 the gods who ate the fat of their sacrifices

and drank the wine of their drink offerings?

Let them rise up to help you!

Let them give you shelter!

39 “See now that I myself am He!

There is no god besides me.

I put to death and I bring to life,

I have wounded and I will heal,

and no one can deliver out of my hand.

40 I lift my hand to heaven and declare:

As surely as I live forever,

41 when I sharpen my flashing sword

and my hand grasps it in judgment,

I will take vengeance on my adversaries

and repay those who hate me.

42 I will make my arrows drunk with blood,

while my sword devours flesh:

the blood of the slain and the captives,

the heads of the enemy leaders.”

43 Rejoice, O nations, with his people,

for he will avenge the blood of his servants;

he will take vengeance on his enemies

and make atonement for his land and people.

This judgment in Deuteronomy is the kind of judgment that Jesus is pronouncing on this stiff-necked people. They are heaping up their judgment to the limit. Nothing like the judgment that is coming upon them soon in that generation will ever be experienced by this nation again because their whole world of the Old Covenant they made with God is coming to an end. Throughout His three and a half year ministry Jesus keeps warning them to flee from the coming judgment.

This theme of judgment is also a common theme in the Revelation. In fact the city of Jerusalem is compared to a great prostitute (Jer. 3:1-3), Sodom (Isa. 1:21) and Babylon. The ‘great city’ of Revelation 11:8 is also the great prostitute of Revelation 17:1, a harlot (Isa. 1:9-10, 21), the ‘great city’ of Revelation 17:5-6; 17:16-18; 18:2,4-6, 8, 10, 16, 19, 20-24. A great deal could be made of these verses, but if you disagree that this is talking of Jerusalem, then ask yourself where the blood of the prophets and saints have been shed or where the Lord was slain? Ask yourself why Jesus concerned Himself so much about the avenging of this blood. How many times did the saints cry out for vengeance? Well it was fulfilled in A.D. 70.

Revelation 11:8

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

8 Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city, which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.

Revelation 18:19-24

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

19 They will throw dust on their heads, and with weeping and mourning cry out:

“‘Woe! Woe, O great city,

where all who had ships on the sea

became rich through her wealth!

In one hour she has been brought to ruin!

20 Rejoice over her, O heaven!

Rejoice, saints and apostles and prophets!

God has judged her for the way she treated you.’

21 Then a mighty angel picked up a boulder the size of a large millstone and threw it into the sea, and said:

“With such violence

the great city of Babylon will be thrown down,

never to be found again.

22 The music of harpists and musicians, flute players and trumpeters,

will never be heard in you again.

No workman of any trade

will ever be found in you again.

The sound of a millstone

will never be heard in you again.

23 The light of a lamp

will never shine in you again.

The voice of bridegroom and bride

will never be heard in you again.

Your merchants were the world’s great men.

By your magic spell all the nations were led astray.

24 In her was found the blood of prophets and of the saints,

and of all who have been killed on the earth.”

Do you notice any similarities between Revelation and Jesus’ warnings in Matthew 23? What other city ever treated the prophets and saints in this manner?

Jerusalem was meant to be the holy city, the city of the LORD, the center of God’s presence on earth, the city of the great King, the LORD God Almighty, as well as the capital and most influential city; a city in which the atonement of the people was made. Well this earth was soon to pass away, in Jesus’ generation; the heavens and the earth were going to be shaken, metaphorically speaking. God was going to abandon it once again, forsake it, this time never to return to the city. Where is God’s light and presence found in the old Jerusalem after the death of Christ except in His coming in judgment or in the body of believers that lived there? It was no longer the holy city. Jesus lamented for it. Where in the NT is the physical nation of Israel mentioned as God’s people after they reject their Messiah? Now the church is mentioned as God’s people, the true Israel of God, the remnant. The 144,000 come out of the 12 tribes of Israel during this period. If you want to be literal, how do you get 144,000 after the destruction of the city when there are no longer any genealogies? They were destroyed with the city and temple in A.D. 70, unless you know otherwise?

No, we see the New Jerusalem mentioned, the heavenly city, the new temple, the body of Christ, the new and better covenant, the Spirit of life, the seeds of promise, not the letter of death. And the transition between old and new was complete in A.D. 70. The old no longer existed after this point. No more city – destroyed and in ruins, no more nation – all dispersed, no more covenant for it could no longer be fulfilled to the letter, no more priesthood because our High Priest is after a different order, no more temple, no more genealogies, no more sacrifices of atonement for the sins of the people.

Acts 13:38-41

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

38 “Therefore, my brothers, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. 39 Through him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses. 40 Take care that what the prophets have said does not happen to you:

41 “‘Look, you scoffers,

wonder and perish,

for I am going to do something in your days

that you would never believe,

even if someone told you.’[a]

Footnotes:

  1. Acts 13:41 Hab. 1:5

As God once brought the Babylonians in judgment against His people and His holy city, so now He is going to bring the Romans in judgment of this stiff-necked people and this city. The blood of the saints was calling out, just as it was before Jerusalem fell to the Babylonians in 586 B.C. (Hab. 1:2), but now with the crucifixion and rejection of Christ they had heaped their sins to the limit. Everywhere we read that the apostles go in the Book of Acts there is Jewish opposition to the message.

There's a fundamental flaw in your whole way of looking at these verses: The coming of God in the Tanakh and the coming of Christ are not based on judgment, but on RESCUE! The focus is not on how God came to the Isra'elites for judgment, but rather, such as in the Exodus, for rescuing them from the oppression of the Egyptians. God did get angry against His people Isra'el for a short time, but the emphasis was in His dealing through Koresh (Cyrus II the Great) king of Persia to set His children free and re-gather them back to the Land of Isra'el.

I don't have a bit of problem with the beginning of the Tribulation, the beginning of the pressure put upon His people for their rejection of His Son, being in the first century. HOWEVER, the RESCUE - the SALVATION - of His people was NOT during the first century, but may be during the twenty-first century. THAT'S the emphasis of the Second Coming, and THAT'S why it was not fulfilled in the first century and to this day has not yet been fulfilled.

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Hi Gary,

How do you read coming quickly to be 20 plus centuries removed

This can be done. If we consider what Peter revealed to us about the prophets of old.

1Pe 1:11-12 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

I am assuming that since Peter understood this principle that he would have done likewise and searched the spirit that was in him for revelation of who he was writing too. I try to keep this in mind when I read the New Testament, knowing that these things may have been written for our day.

Gary

I certainly believe that all Scripture is God breathed and useful for teaching, correcting, rebuking and training in righteousness, but I believe the timeline was specifically for them in the first century concerning the last days, the end of the age, the Day of Wrath, the final hour, etc., etc. I never knew the church age had an end. Where in Scripture does it say that it does?

Peter

Hi Peter, It is actually seen in Gods overall plan. The period of the gentiles is the time that Jerusalem was trodden underfoot beginning in AD 70 and ending in 1967. Then there is the finality which can be seen in the full number of the gentiles being come in. Jesus has been staffing his kingdom with rulers over the last two thousand years. He is taking away the authority from the angels and giving it to the sons of God who are yet to be manifested. This will be the final 1000 years of the perfecting of the creation of God. The first 6000 are up sometime before April 26th 2013 when the last gentile who will be given power to rule in the millennium will have been chosen. These things are written all over scripture and it wasn't until I became strictly obedient to that which was revealed unto me that I started to receive the revelation that exposes these truths. I understand if you do not believe and accept what I say as truth but only encourage you as Hebrews 10 tells us to do, to submit unto the works of God and live in them while watching what it is that he is about to do.

Peace in Christ,

Gary

I'm just curious as to what you think will happen on April 26th, 2013, exactly?

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Hi Gary,

How do you read coming quickly to be 20 plus centuries removed

This can be done. If we consider what Peter revealed to us about the prophets of old.

1Pe 1:11-12 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

I am assuming that since Peter understood this principle that he would have done likewise and searched the spirit that was in him for revelation of who he was writing too. I try to keep this in mind when I read the New Testament, knowing that these things may have been written for our day.

Gary

I certainly believe that all Scripture is God breathed and useful for teaching, correcting, rebuking and training in righteousness, but I believe the timeline was specifically for them in the first century concerning the last days, the end of the age, the Day of Wrath, the final hour, etc., etc. I never knew the church age had an end. Where in Scripture does it say that it does?

Peter

Hi Peter, It is actually seen in Gods overall plan. The period of the gentiles is the time that Jerusalem was trodden underfoot beginning in AD 70 and ending in 1967. Then there is the finality which can be seen in the full number of the gentiles being come in. Jesus has been staffing his kingdom with rulers over the last two thousand years. He is taking away the authority from the angels and giving it to the sons of God who are yet to be manifested. This will be the final 1000 years of the perfecting of the creation of God. The first 6000 are up sometime before April 26th 2013 when the last gentile who will be given power to rule in the millennium will have been chosen. These things are written all over scripture and it wasn't until I became strictly obedient to that which was revealed unto me that I started to receive the revelation that exposes these truths. I understand if you do not believe and accept what I say as truth but only encourage you as Hebrews 10 tells us to do, to submit unto the works of God and live in them while watching what it is that he is about to do.

Peace in Christ,

Gary

I'm just curious as to what you think will happen on April 26th, 2013, exactly?

Steve, not on but before and it seems my understanding of the date may be slightly off as I later learned that Israel became a nation on May 14th, but my first source spoke of April 26th which was last years anniversary according to the gregorian calendar. The difference in calendars makes it difficult to understand exact dates for me. To make it simple, I expect God to have exhausted his patience with the gentle church and begin the process of cleansing the temple for the final time, the fullness of the gentiles having come in before the nation of Israel turns 65 years old. I have come to this conclusion as I was led through the scriptures and providentially to information about the events of the past century. I have tried to discuss it in detail here at worthy but there is too much opposition to the discussion and threads get locked quickly. While I don't look forward to going through what is coming, I will be glad when it all begins or the dates come and pass without incident and I find that I have just been misled. Either way I will be relieved.

Gary

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Hi Gary,

How do you read coming quickly to be 20 plus centuries removed

This can be done. If we consider what Peter revealed to us about the prophets of old.

1Pe 1:11-12 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

I am assuming that since Peter understood this principle that he would have done likewise and searched the spirit that was in him for revelation of who he was writing too. I try to keep this in mind when I read the New Testament, knowing that these things may have been written for our day.

Gary

I certainly believe that all Scripture is God breathed and useful for teaching, correcting, rebuking and training in righteousness, but I believe the timeline was specifically for them in the first century concerning the last days, the end of the age, the Day of Wrath, the final hour, etc., etc. I never knew the church age had an end. Where in Scripture does it say that it does?

Peter

Hi Peter, It is actually seen in Gods overall plan. The period of the gentiles is the time that Jerusalem was trodden underfoot beginning in AD 70 and ending in 1967. Then there is the finality which can be seen in the full number of the gentiles being come in. Jesus has been staffing his kingdom with rulers over the last two thousand years. He is taking away the authority from the angels and giving it to the sons of God who are yet to be manifested. This will be the final 1000 years of the perfecting of the creation of God. The first 6000 are up sometime before April 26th 2013 when the last gentile who will be given power to rule in the millennium will have been chosen. These things are written all over scripture and it wasn't until I became strictly obedient to that which was revealed unto me that I started to receive the revelation that exposes these truths. I understand if you do not believe and accept what I say as truth but only encourage you as Hebrews 10 tells us to do, to submit unto the works of God and live in them while watching what it is that he is about to do.

Peace in Christ,

Gary

I'm just curious as to what you think will happen on April 26th, 2013, exactly?

Steve, not on but before and it seems my understanding of the date may be slightly off as I later learned that Israel became a nation on May 14th, but my first source spoke of April 26th which was last years anniversary according to the gregorian calendar. The difference in calendars makes it difficult to understand exact dates for me. To make it simple, I expect God to have exhausted his patience with the gentle church and begin the process of cleansing the temple for the final time, the fullness of the gentiles having come in before the nation of Israel turns 65 years old. I have come to this conclusion as I was led through the scriptures and providentially to information about the events of the past century. I have tried to discuss it in detail here at worthy but there is too much opposition to the discussion and threads get locked quickly. While I don't look forward to going through what is coming, I will be glad when it all begins or the dates come and pass without incident and I find that I have just been misled. Either way I will be relieved.

Gary

Are you speaking of feeling that you've been led by the Spirit on this or are you speaking of study with other people?

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Hi Gary,

How do you read coming quickly to be 20 plus centuries removed

This can be done. If we consider what Peter revealed to us about the prophets of old.

1Pe 1:11-12 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

I am assuming that since Peter understood this principle that he would have done likewise and searched the spirit that was in him for revelation of who he was writing too. I try to keep this in mind when I read the New Testament, knowing that these things may have been written for our day.

Gary

I certainly believe that all Scripture is God breathed and useful for teaching, correcting, rebuking and training in righteousness, but I believe the timeline was specifically for them in the first century concerning the last days, the end of the age, the Day of Wrath, the final hour, etc., etc. I never knew the church age had an end. Where in Scripture does it say that it does?

Peter

Hi Peter, It is actually seen in Gods overall plan. The period of the gentiles is the time that Jerusalem was trodden underfoot beginning in AD 70 and ending in 1967. Then there is the finality which can be seen in the full number of the gentiles being come in. Jesus has been staffing his kingdom with rulers over the last two thousand years. He is taking away the authority from the angels and giving it to the sons of God who are yet to be manifested. This will be the final 1000 years of the perfecting of the creation of God. The first 6000 are up sometime before April 26th 2013 when the last gentile who will be given power to rule in the millennium will have been chosen. These things are written all over scripture and it wasn't until I became strictly obedient to that which was revealed unto me that I started to receive the revelation that exposes these truths. I understand if you do not believe and accept what I say as truth but only encourage you as Hebrews 10 tells us to do, to submit unto the works of God and live in them while watching what it is that he is about to do.

Peace in Christ,

Gary

I'm just curious as to what you think will happen on April 26th, 2013, exactly?

Steve, not on but before and it seems my understanding of the date may be slightly off as I later learned that Israel became a nation on May 14th, but my first source spoke of April 26th which was last years anniversary according to the gregorian calendar. The difference in calendars makes it difficult to understand exact dates for me. To make it simple, I expect God to have exhausted his patience with the gentle church and begin the process of cleansing the temple for the final time, the fullness of the gentiles having come in before the nation of Israel turns 65 years old. I have come to this conclusion as I was led through the scriptures and providentially to information about the events of the past century. I have tried to discuss it in detail here at worthy but there is too much opposition to the discussion and threads get locked quickly. While I don't look forward to going through what is coming, I will be glad when it all begins or the dates come and pass without incident and I find that I have just been misled. Either way I will be relieved.

Gary

Are you speaking of feeling that you've been led by the Spirit on this or are you speaking of study with other people?

It is spirit led Steve, and ultimately though I believe it to be the Holy Spirit, only time will tell.

Gary

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Hi Gary,

How do you read coming quickly to be 20 plus centuries removed

This can be done. If we consider what Peter revealed to us about the prophets of old.

1Pe 1:11-12 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

I am assuming that since Peter understood this principle that he would have done likewise and searched the spirit that was in him for revelation of who he was writing too. I try to keep this in mind when I read the New Testament, knowing that these things may have been written for our day.

Gary

I certainly believe that all Scripture is God breathed and useful for teaching, correcting, rebuking and training in righteousness, but I believe the timeline was specifically for them in the first century concerning the last days, the end of the age, the Day of Wrath, the final hour, etc., etc. I never knew the church age had an end. Where in Scripture does it say that it does?

Peter

Hi Peter, It is actually seen in Gods overall plan. The period of the gentiles is the time that Jerusalem was trodden underfoot beginning in AD 70 and ending in 1967. Then there is the finality which can be seen in the full number of the gentiles being come in. Jesus has been staffing his kingdom with rulers over the last two thousand years. He is taking away the authority from the angels and giving it to the sons of God who are yet to be manifested. This will be the final 1000 years of the perfecting of the creation of God. The first 6000 are up sometime before April 26th 2013 when the last gentile who will be given power to rule in the millennium will have been chosen. These things are written all over scripture and it wasn't until I became strictly obedient to that which was revealed unto me that I started to receive the revelation that exposes these truths. I understand if you do not believe and accept what I say as truth but only encourage you as Hebrews 10 tells us to do, to submit unto the works of God and live in them while watching what it is that he is about to do.

Peace in Christ,

Gary

I'm just curious as to what you think will happen on April 26th, 2013, exactly?

Steve, not on but before and it seems my understanding of the date may be slightly off as I later learned that Israel became a nation on May 14th, but my first source spoke of April 26th which was last years anniversary according to the gregorian calendar. The difference in calendars makes it difficult to understand exact dates for me. To make it simple, I expect God to have exhausted his patience with the gentle church and begin the process of cleansing the temple for the final time, the fullness of the gentiles having come in before the nation of Israel turns 65 years old. I have come to this conclusion as I was led through the scriptures and providentially to information about the events of the past century. I have tried to discuss it in detail here at worthy but there is too much opposition to the discussion and threads get locked quickly. While I don't look forward to going through what is coming, I will be glad when it all begins or the dates come and pass without incident and I find that I have just been misled. Either way I will be relieved.

Gary

Are you speaking of feeling that you've been led by the Spirit on this or are you speaking of study with other people?

It is spirit led Steve, and ultimately though I believe it to be the Holy Spirit, only time will tell.

Gary

Ah, well. It was just a latent curiosity after I came across it, not seeking an argument or debate.

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Ah, well. It was just a latent curiosity after I came across it, not seeking an argument or debate.

Thanks Steve, it does bring about much problems when discussed. There's that little issue of 'if we all have the Holy Spirit, then why isn't he showing this to everyone?'. And that I completely understand. While I have spoken to others who have understood these things to be true, they are far and few in between.

Gary

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Hi Roy,

There's a fundamental flaw in your whole way of looking at these verses: The coming of God in the Tanakh and the coming of Christ are not based on judgment, but on RESCUE! The focus is not on how God came to the Isra'elites for judgment, but rather, such as in the Exodus, for rescuing them from the oppression of the Egyptians. God did get angry against His people Isra'el for a short time, but the emphasis was in His dealing through Koresh (Cyrus II the Great) king of Persia to set His children free and re-gather them back to the Land of Isra'el. -Roy

So you say. The covenant that was entered into promised both blessings and curses (Deut. 4, 6, 8, 28,29,32, etc). Throughout the OT we see this 'stiff-necked' people, we see God sending prophets to them in warning. Finally God sends His Son in the fullness of time and they reject their Messiah. He brings salvation or rescue to those who are waiting, to the elect, the remnant, to those who have ears to hear, eyes to see and a heart to understand, but judgment on the rest - the great and terrible day of the Lord for breaking the covenant. Constantly the warning goes out to 'this generation' that Jesus came to, the warning to flee from the coming wrath. As Jesus goes through the cities and towns He not only brings the good news of salvation and a better covenant, but the warning of judgment (Matt. 10:15 for instance). Yes, Jesus came to save His people, but the Father also appointed all judgment to the Son (John 5:22).

I don't have a bit of problem with the beginning of the Tribulation, the beginning of the pressure put upon His people for their rejection of His Son, being in the first century. HOWEVER, the RESCUE - the SALVATION - of His people was NOT during the first century, but may be during the twenty-first century. THAT'S the emphasis of the Second Coming, and THAT'S why it was not fulfilled in the first century and to this day has not yet been fulfilled. -Roy

When you use the word 'His people' what do you mean? He came to His own but His own did not receive Him yet to all who received Him

He gave the right to become children of God - children not born of the flesh but born of the Spirit, children who worship in spirit and in truth.

The Book of revelation is about the judgment of Israel of the Old Covenant. That 'great city' spoken of is Jerusalem. How can it be any other? What other city is guilty of persecuting and killing the prophets and apostles? Does Jesus not make this plain enough in the gospels?

Luke 13:33-35

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

33 In any case, I must keep going today and tomorrow and the next day—for surely no prophet can die outside Jerusalem!

34 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 35 Look, your house is left to you desolate. I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”

Matthew 23:34-38

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.

37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate.

How does this not speak to you of judgment upon this generation, the great and terrible day of the Lord? If you read Revelation 17-19 the great city in it is guilty of killing these same prophets and apostles. So are you suggesting Babylon the Great, the great city is not Jerusalem, it is Jerusalem but it is not in the generation that Jesus said judgment would come upon them or something completely different that you would be responsible for justifying from Scripture?

Peter

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Hi Gary,

It is spirit led Steve, and ultimately though I believe it to be the Holy Spirit, only time will tell. -Gary

I'm not familiar with this prophecy of April 26th, but Gary, what happens if this does not take place next year, or even five years from now? Would you still believe that it was Spirit led? I say this because of all the times I have been led and led others to think that we were living in the last days and Jesus was coming soon. I think of all the times in the past thirty years or so in which prophecy experts have predicted the 2nd Coming or the end times in their date setting and they have been wrong - JVI, Harold Camping, Grant, Jeffereys, Hal Lindsey, John Haggie, and a slew of others. They keep changing their dates once the date expires so as not to lose face. Their credibility has been undermined and it makes many seekers question whether Christianity is true, which of course it is, but it gives the church a bad name. On an Inner Court debate it is not critical; we learn from each other and we can consider the biblical support for our positions, but to an unbeliever it gives them fuel in which to doubt further.

Blessings in Christ Jesus!

Peter

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Hi Gary,

It is spirit led Steve, and ultimately though I believe it to be the Holy Spirit, only time will tell. -Gary

I'm not familiar with this prophecy of April 26th, but Gary, what happens if this does not take place next year, or even five years from now? Would you still believe that it was Spirit led? I say this because of all the times I have been led and led others to think that we were living in the last days and Jesus was coming soon. I think of all the times in the past thirty years or so in which prophecy experts have predicted the 2nd Coming or the end times in their date setting and they have been wrong - JVI, Harold Camping, Grant, Jeffereys, Hal Lindsey, John Haggie, and a slew of others. They keep changing their dates once the date expires so as not to lose face. Their credibility has been undermined and it makes many seekers question whether Christianity is true, which of course it is, but it gives the church a bad name. On an Inner Court debate it is not critical; we learn from each other and we can consider the biblical support for our positions, but to an unbeliever it gives them fuel in which to doubt further.

Blessings in Christ Jesus!

Peter

It's very simple. We aren't supposed to try to predict it. God didn't give it to John and Jesus said no man will know the day or the hour. Anytime someone comes out with a date I become very, very skeptical for that reason. The list of names you posted also contains a lot of televangelists. The end of the world is happening soon, give me money! should send up red flags for anyone. As far as whether or not they give the church a bad name, there's not a thing you or I can do about that.

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Hi Gary,

It is spirit led Steve, and ultimately though I believe it to be the Holy Spirit, only time will tell. -Gary

I'm not familiar with this prophecy of April 26th, but Gary, what happens if this does not take place next year, or even five years from now? Would you still believe that it was Spirit led? I say this because of all the times I have been led and led others to think that we were living in the last days and Jesus was coming soon. I think of all the times in the past thirty years or so in which prophecy experts have predicted the 2nd Coming or the end times in their date setting and they have been wrong - JVI, Harold Camping, Grant, Jeffereys, Hal Lindsey, John Haggie, and a slew of others. They keep changing their dates once the date expires so as not to lose face. Their credibility has been undermined and it makes many seekers question whether Christianity is true, which of course it is, but it gives the church a bad name. On an Inner Court debate it is not critical; we learn from each other and we can consider the biblical support for our positions, but to an unbeliever it gives them fuel in which to doubt further.

Blessings in Christ Jesus!

Peter

It's very simple. We aren't supposed to try to predict it. God didn't give it to John and Jesus said no man will know the day or the hour. Anytime someone comes out with a date I become very, very skeptical for that reason. The list of names you posted also contains a lot of televangelists. The end of the world is happening soon, give me money! should send up red flags for anyone. As far as whether or not they give the church a bad name, there's not a thing you or I can do about that.

OK, thanks, but what is significant about April 26th?

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Hi Gary,

It is spirit led Steve, and ultimately though I believe it to be the Holy Spirit, only time will tell. -Gary

I'm not familiar with this prophecy of April 26th, but Gary, what happens if this does not take place next year, or even five years from now? Would you still believe that it was Spirit led? I say this because of all the times I have been led and led others to think that we were living in the last days and Jesus was coming soon. I think of all the times in the past thirty years or so in which prophecy experts have predicted the 2nd Coming or the end times in their date setting and they have been wrong - JVI, Harold Camping, Grant, Jeffereys, Hal Lindsey, John Haggie, and a slew of others. They keep changing their dates once the date expires so as not to lose face. Their credibility has been undermined and it makes many seekers question whether Christianity is true, which of course it is, but it gives the church a bad name. On an Inner Court debate it is not critical; we learn from each other and we can consider the biblical support for our positions, but to an unbeliever it gives them fuel in which to doubt further.

Blessings in Christ Jesus!

Peter

It's very simple. We aren't supposed to try to predict it. God didn't give it to John and Jesus said no man will know the day or the hour. Anytime someone comes out with a date I become very, very skeptical for that reason. The list of names you posted also contains a lot of televangelists. The end of the world is happening soon, give me money! should send up red flags for anyone. As far as whether or not they give the church a bad name, there's not a thing you or I can do about that.

OK, thanks, but what is significant about April 26th?

I don't know, it's not my prophecy lol, it's GDE's. I don't think we can or will know.

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Hi Gary,

It is spirit led Steve, and ultimately though I believe it to be the Holy Spirit, only time will tell. -Gary

I'm not familiar with this prophecy of April 26th, but Gary, what happens if this does not take place next year, or even five years from now? Would you still believe that it was Spirit led? I say this because of all the times I have been led and led others to think that we were living in the last days and Jesus was coming soon. I think of all the times in the past thirty years or so in which prophecy experts have predicted the 2nd Coming or the end times in their date setting and they have been wrong - JVI, Harold Camping, Grant, Jeffereys, Hal Lindsey, John Haggie, and a slew of others. They keep changing their dates once the date expires so as not to lose face. Their credibility has been undermined and it makes many seekers question whether Christianity is true, which of course it is, but it gives the church a bad name. On an Inner Court debate it is not critical; we learn from each other and we can consider the biblical support for our positions, but to an unbeliever it gives them fuel in which to doubt further.

Blessings in Christ Jesus!

Peter

Peter, thanks for the inquiry. I have already stated that if what I am being led to believe does not come to pass I will still believe that it was spirit led but just not the right spirit. The significance of the date is the 65th birthday of the nation of Israel post AD 70 destruction. It is the last possible date for the removal of Gods protective hand upon the gentile church. I am making claim that it is a major fulfillment of the Isaiah 7 prophecy concerning the one who would try to destroy Judah and fail. This is what I have been led to believe. It looks as if April 12-13, 2003 is actually the 65th birthday.

Gary

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Hi Gary,

It is spirit led Steve, and ultimately though I believe it to be the Holy Spirit, only time will tell. -Gary

I'm not familiar with this prophecy of April 26th, but Gary, what happens if this does not take place next year, or even five years from now? Would you still believe that it was Spirit led? I say this because of all the times I have been led and led others to think that we were living in the last days and Jesus was coming soon. I think of all the times in the past thirty years or so in which prophecy experts have predicted the 2nd Coming or the end times in their date setting and they have been wrong - JVI, Harold Camping, Grant, Jeffereys, Hal Lindsey, John Haggie, and a slew of others. They keep changing their dates once the date expires so as not to lose face. Their credibility has been undermined and it makes many seekers question whether Christianity is true, which of course it is, but it gives the church a bad name. On an Inner Court debate it is not critical; we learn from each other and we can consider the biblical support for our positions, but to an unbeliever it gives them fuel in which to doubt further.

Blessings in Christ Jesus!

Peter

Peter, thanks for the inquiry. I have already stated that if what I am being led to believe does not come to pass I will still believe that it was spirit led but just not the right spirit. The significance of the date is the 65th birthday of the nation of Israel post AD 70 destruction. It is the last possible date for the removal of Gods protective hand upon the gentile church. I am making claim that it is a major fulfillment of the Isaiah 7 prophecy concerning the one who would try to destroy Judah and fail. This is what I have been led to believe. It looks as if April 12-13, 2003 is actually the 65th birthday.

Gary

Thanks, I'm going to think about it and get back to you later once I check out Isaiah 7.

Peter

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Hi Gary,

It is spirit led Steve, and ultimately though I believe it to be the Holy Spirit, only time will tell. -Gary

I'm not familiar with this prophecy of April 26th, but Gary, what happens if this does not take place next year, or even five years from now? Would you still believe that it was Spirit led? I say this because of all the times I have been led and led others to think that we were living in the last days and Jesus was coming soon. I think of all the times in the past thirty years or so in which prophecy experts have predicted the 2nd Coming or the end times in their date setting and they have been wrong - JVI, Harold Camping, Grant, Jeffereys, Hal Lindsey, John Haggie, and a slew of others. They keep changing their dates once the date expires so as not to lose face. Their credibility has been undermined and it makes many seekers question whether Christianity is true, which of course it is, but it gives the church a bad name. On an Inner Court debate it is not critical; we learn from each other and we can consider the biblical support for our positions, but to an unbeliever it gives them fuel in which to doubt further.

Blessings in Christ Jesus!

Peter

Peter, thanks for the inquiry. I have already stated that if what I am being led to believe does not come to pass I will still believe that it was spirit led but just not the right spirit. The significance of the date is the 65th birthday of the nation of Israel post AD 70 destruction. It is the last possible date for the removal of Gods protective hand upon the gentile church. I am making claim that it is a major fulfillment of the Isaiah 7 prophecy concerning the one who would try to destroy Judah and fail. This is what I have been led to believe. It looks as if April 12-13, 2003 is actually the 65th birthday.

Gary

Thanks, I'm going to think about it and get back to you later once I check out Isaiah 7.

Peter

Peter, I would suggest you also consider 2 Kings 17, with an understanding of the foreshadowing of a people who were not a people that were given one priest so that they might know the one true God that inhabited the land of Samaria in the stead of the Northern kingdom of Israel. Consider that which is said of their end and compare to the modern gentile church as a whole, and knowing that God never changes, what is the logical conclusion for them that fear God but also serve idols?

2Ki 17:41 So these nations feared the LORD, and served their graven images, both their children, and their children's children: as did their fathers, so do they unto this day.

I can put the pieces of the puzzle together as they are given unto me for anyone but there is one basic problem that I am faced with.

Hsa 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

Not to mention Gods people, when disobedient, love to stone the prophets.

Mat 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and [some] of them ye shall kill and crucify; and [some] of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute [them] from city to city:

A man who God chooses to send may not have a bright future, in this world anyway.

I would be happy to explain anything that you would like to know as God only give unto us that which we are to use to benefit others with. My only goal is to help others fear God and seek to obey every precept of scripture in hope of the salvation which is to be revealed in the end. I offer myself available by telephone or in person meetings to any and all who truly seek to understand that which God has freely given unto me. I am your servant.

In Jesus Name,

Gary

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Hi Gary,

Consider that which is said of their end and compare to the modern gentile church as a whole, and knowing that God never changes, what is the logical conclusion for them that fear God but also serve idols? -Gary[

I am unfamiliar with an end of the church age? Jesus said that He would build His church and the gates of Hades would not prevail against it. The kingdom age is an eternal age. The kingdom of God is also the kingdom of heaven. The two are used interchangeably. Again I would point you to Acts 2:29-36. One of David's descendants is on the throne. He is both Lord and Christ!

Acts 2:29-36

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

29 “Brothers, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31 Seeing what was ahead, he spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to the grave, nor did his body see decay. 32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact. 33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said,

“‘The Lord said to my Lord:

“Sit at my right hand

35 until I make your enemies

a footstool for your feet.”’[b]

36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.

What God promised to David He delivered in Christ. When Christ rose He was put on David's throne, thus He received a kingdom and He is Lord and Christ. He waited until A.D. 70 for His enemies to be made His footstool. In the OT and NT the Jews are called enemies of God. God exalted Him to the highest place and gave Him a name that is above every name. It is past tense; it has happened - He is Lord, He has received what He had before He became man and subjected Himself to the Father, that God may be all in all.

There is no mention of a fifth kingdom in Daniel. That is something that is read into the text. At the end of the fourth kingdom the Lord would set up His eternal kingdom.

Daniel 2:40

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

40 Finally, there will be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron—for iron breaks and smashes everything—and as iron breaks things to pieces, so it will crush and break all the others.

It is during this fourth kingdom that the God of heaven sets up His kingdom that will never be destroyed.

Daniel 9:24-27

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

24 Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.

25 “Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One,the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.

Jesus was the one who would destroy the city by the use of the Roman armies (Luke 13:35; Acts 6:14). This happened in A.D. 70.

Peter

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I am unfamiliar with an end of the church age?

Peter

End of the Age , end of the church age is what Jesus said in reference to his return to earth to set up his kingdom on earth

We are now in the church Age , Jesus will be ruler of the earth when he sets up His Kingdom

Matthew

As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

Jesus returns to the same place as where he ascended into heaven , in a manner like he went up he will come back , he ascended up into the clouds and he will return coming down from the clouds ,but when he returns it will be seen by everyone as lighting is seen from the east to the west , everyone on earth will know that Jesus has come ,

Acts

9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Hi Danielzk,

I find some problems with your interpretation. The problem is that when Jesus discussed His coming with the disciples and the end of the age He was speaking of the end of the Jewish age, the old covenant, not the church age. Daniel 2, 9, 12 speak of of Daniels people and the end of their covenant age. Did Jesus put an end to sin and atone for wickedness with His atonement? (Daniel 9:24) Did He bring in an everlasting righteousness with His sacrifice? If not then what is the righteousness that you as a Christian are clothed with? Did He save His people from their sins, all those appointed and had their names written in the book? Was the power of the holy people broken in A.D. 70? (Daniel 12:7) If it was not then how is the old covenant still practiced today without a temple, priesthood or animal sacrifices? Where did Jesus ever say that He would bring an end to the church - His body of believers?

Jesus also said that the gospel would be preached in all the world and then the end would come. This is what Scripture teaches, that it was preached to all the known world of that time. (Colossians 1:6, 23; Acts 2:5; Romans 10:18) Paul confirms that the end of the ages has come. (1 Corinthians 10:11) Throughout the NT there is a comparison between the new and old covenants. You find it in every epistle and book. These people were expecting something to happen in their generation. Jesus made it plain throughout His ministry that judgment was coming upon their generation. That judgment was issued and it brought in a better covenant. The old had to disappear so that people were not trying to live under the old. From A.D. 30 or so until A.D. 70 the two existed side by side. (Hebrews 8:13; 7:11-12, 18, 23-28; 8:6-12 - please read)

Also, please keep in mind Daniel 9:24 when you read the following:

Hebrews 9:11-28

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

The Blood of Christ

11 When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made, that is to say, not a part of this creation. 12 He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. 14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!

15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

16 In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, 17 because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living. 18This is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood. 19 When Moses had proclaimed every commandment of the law to all the people, he took the blood of calves, together with water, scarlet wool and branches of hyssop, and sprinkled the scroll and all the people. 20 He said, “This is the blood of the covenant, which God has commanded you to keep.” 21 In the same way, he sprinkled with the blood both the tabernacle and everything used in its ceremonies. 22 In fact,the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

23 It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ did not enter a man-made sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence. 25 Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26 Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Jesus said before He gave up His Spirit that 'It is finished.' It is a past act. He has appeared, in heaven, at the end of the ages to do away with sin. In A.D. 70 He came to put an end to the Jewish age, the old covenant, the animal sacrifice, the Levitical priesthood. If you think not then where are the sacrifices for sin offered by the Jews? (Matthew 5:17-18) These are tremendous hurdles that you have to explain away. Can you do it without turning a blind eye to what Scripture says?

The problem during the first century was that Christ was the end of the law and yet the old and new were both together during the transition and many wanted to incorporate the two.

Romans 10:4

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

4 Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

Galatians 3:23-25

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

23 Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

Romans 7:1-6

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

An Illustration From Marriage

7 Do you not know, brothers—for I am speaking to men who know the law—that the law has authority over a man only as long as he lives? 2 For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage. 3 So then, if she marries another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress, even though she marries another man.

4 So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were controlled by the sinful nature,[a] the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

Romans 8:1-5

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

Life Through the Spirit

8 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, 4 in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.

5 Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires.

I think that when the curtain was torn it signified not only that the way was opened for man to be reconciled with God but also that God had left that earthly temple, never to return. After this we see that the church, the called out body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, a temple not built by human hands in which God now resides, the new temple in which God resides with man. We as the body of believer are His temple on earth where His presence abides. The problem with the early church was that it was persecuted by the old covenant Jews and was so against these new covenant believers that God really got their attention when He no longer made it possible for them to continue with the old covenant - He bought it to an end; the world, the heavens and earth that they knew was no longer, their dispensation, their covenant was gone.

Acts 1:9-11 is still a puzzle to me. I don't know how to explain it except to say that if this is the 'second coming' then other portions of Scripture that speak of this coming do not match this coming. For instance, Jesus does not come in like manner. There is no mention of Jesus' coming with thousands upon thousands of His angels or on a white horse and this going was before the disciples and a small body of believers, totaling about 120 (Acts 1:15), not a worldview event. These were men of Galilee, the apostles and believers who were instructed that He would come in like manner as they had seen Him go. His appearance at the ascension is not like the appearance of His coming in glory where people fall at His feet in fear and awe. Then there are the time statements in the passage that speaks to the first century believers. They were also looking for Him to 'restore the kingdom of Israel.' But Paul makes it plain that not all who are Israel are the true Israel.

Peter

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Hi Danielzk,

Where do I begin? Sorry, this is going to be long. I will break it into different posts over the next few days.

I am not sure how to break this to you but the preterits view is simply invalid , it simply has so many flaws and that is why these scriptures are hard for you to understand , because the teaching you follow is not in alignment with scripture

The statements you place along with the scriptures are not even a match -Danielzk

That is not something you have demonstrated with Scripture. Jesus came to His own - Israel of the old covenant - the people God made a covenant with and what the OT primarily concerns itself with. Yet His own did not receive Him. Why did Jesus come? He came to fulfill all Scripture written about Him and to bring in the everlasting covenant and save His people - the remnant, those who are true Israel, both Jews and Gentiles. Scripture demonstrates this. Now there is neither Jew nor Gentile, believers are all one in Christ. All who receive Him He gave the right to become children of God, not just the Jews!

the Daniel 24 is not at all about Jesus ,, -Danielzk

How can you say this. It is so concerned with Jesus. Try reading a commentary or two or even a dozen or just reason it out with the words given by God.

Daniel 9:24

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

24 “Seventy ‘sevens’[a] are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish[b] transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.[c]

Footnotes:

  1. Daniel 9:24 Or ‘weeks’; also in verses 25 and 26
  2. Daniel 9:24 Or restrain
  3. Daniel 9:24 Or Most Holy Place; or most holy One

Who else can put an end to sin, atone for wickedness, bring in an everlasting righteousness and anoint the Most Holy or be anointed the Holy One?

this refers to Daniels 70th Week prophecy where a man comes on the world scene as a man of peace and confirms a covenant with Israel and all of her enemies and declares a peace treaty that assures Israel to have peace & security for a period of 7 years(1week) and in the middle of that week 3.5 years he goes into the temple that has been built (which is pending now) and puts an end to the animal sacrifices and sits upon the throne that was meant for Christ and declares that he is god , then he demands that every one worship him and he starts killing Jews in Judea , this is the event that is known as "the abomination that makes desolate"(Daniel 9:27)(Matthew 24:15 )( it has not yet happened ), at this time he and the false prophet are a team and call fire down from heaven to convince the people that he is god ,,this is the man called ,"the man of sin" or the "son of perdition" or the antichrist -Danielzk

Daniels 70 weeks of years begins with the decree to rebuild the city/temple and ends with the cutting off of the Righteous One [i.e., Jesus' crucifixion] and the judgment that comes on the city, temple and these people. Ezra left Babylon in 457 B.C. to return to Jerusalem and restore God's house. Jesus was cut of or crucified in A.D. 30 or there about. You are trying to stretch that prophecy way into the future beyond what Scripture teaches. The 'Anointed One' refers to the Lord Jesus Christ, not the anti-Christ/man of sin. The city and the temple were rebuilt in troubled times when Herod finished restoring the temple and city. The Jews were in a period of war with the Romans when the city and temple were destroyed in A.D. 70. Josephus writes about the Jewish Wars and about the siege of Jerusalem that resulted in its destruction (He uses terminology that is found in the Bible). In Luke 21:20 desolation comes through the hands of the Romans as decreed by God. (Daniel 9:26) These are the desolation's that have been decreed by God. Those in Judea are told to flee by Jesus when they see these things coming (The Christians fled to Pelle before this destruction). Brothers fight against brothers (talk about tribulation - Matthew 10:21-23 with Matthew 24:9-14) in that there were three factions of Jews that Josephus mentions that divide the city into three sections and fought among themselves as well as against the Romans.

I think that a distinction can be made between two rulers, the Anointed One and the ruler whose people destroy the city. One refers to our Lord and the other to the Romans and their ruler. I have heard some Peterist's who argue that both references or rulers are in reference to God, but I don't necessarily see it that way. Jesus confirmed His new covenant with many in the shedding of His blood on the cross during His three and a half years of ministry, but in my mind it is something I'm still trying to sort out in how it all relates. The Roman ruler did desecrate the temple area. and the city. Great tribulation came upon the city, such as they had never known as a nation and will never know again as a nation for the Old Covenant peoples were dispersed and the old covenant ceased with this fall.

But to look upon this prophecy as both rulers refering to God's messengers - the Lord Jesus and the Roman armies and their ruler - requires that the covenant maker is God who is making the New Covenant in Christ and in the middle of that covenant (3 1/2 years) Jesus is cut off, making an end to sacrifice and offering by His one sacrifice and then God brings the Roman armies against the city which in turn sets up the abomination of desolation (the last 3 1/2 years) that results in/causes the end of the old covenant completely with the final destruction of the physical temple and destruction of the city and dispersion of the old covenant people. In the mean time, one generation lives to see the completion.

But concerning Matthew 24:15-22/Luke 21:20-24 and the term 'desolations' it can be considered that the whole area of Jerusalem, the holy city, the city that housed God's name (that the Romans surrounded), had been desecrated, and desolation happened by the Romans, especially when they entered the temple area as recorded by Josephus on more that one occasion during the period after Jesus ascended to heaven (Before 66, in A.D. 66 and 70). In A.D. 70 Titus actually desecrated the temple.

Daniel 9:25-27

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

25 “Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree[a] to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One,[b] the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing.[c]The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.[d] In the middle of the ‘seven’[e]he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.[f][g]

Footnotes:

  1. Daniel 9:25 Or word
  2. Daniel 9:25 Or an anointed one; also in verse 26
  3. Daniel 9:26 Or off and will have no one; or off, but not for himself
  4. Daniel 9:27 Or ‘week’
  5. Daniel 9:27 Or ‘week’
  6. Daniel 9:27 Or it
  7. Daniel 9:27 Or And one who causes desolation will come upon the pinnacle of the abominable temple, until the end that is decreed is poured out on the desolated city

The similarities between Daniel 9 and Matthew 24 are many. There are also many similarities between Revelation and Daniel/Matthew that can be pointed out at another time.

I have heard all the preterist views of saying that Nero was the antichist and all that but it is not true -Danielzk

I believe he was one of the anti-Christ's/ one of the beasts mentioned in Revelation 13 and certainly fits the title of 'the Beast' as he was known by some in the first century. His name also fits the number of the beast - 666. Persecution/tribulation of Christian's by the Roman's started during the reign of Nero. Before this the Jews were their main source of persecution, as noted in so many of the epistles. Nero, as emperor being the first beast and Vespitan or Titus as the second beast who is given authority by the first and who is sent by Nero, the first beast, to this region of the world to quell the Jewish uprisings. All these comments can be expanded on not only from the Bible but also from history to give more reason to believe that Nero is referenced.

But I still find it hard to understand how you can say that Daniel 9:24 does not refer to the Messiah.

More later.

Peter

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Hi Danielzk,

I'm not going to catch up at this rate but I'm going to answer your two posts anyway, whether or not you wish to continue. How much do you know of the Preterist position? You see, I have been where you are. I have considered the futurist positions. What have you read on the subject from the Preterist position? Which authors have you read? The question is what does Scripture really say and how much of what you/I believe is tradition and how much of is Scriptural?

The similarities between Daniel 9 and Matthew 24 are many. -Me

Yes because they are exactly the very same thing , there is only one "abomination that makes desolate" that is referred to in this matter Notice that Jesus is speaking directly about the the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of by Prophet Daniel

Matthew 24

15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniellet the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 1For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. Danielzk

You did not include the whole context. Yes, He is speaking of the abomination of desolation in Matthew 24:15, but He also refers to other desolation. There are two 'desolations' spoken of - the abomination of desolation in which the ruler enters the temple and the desolation of the city and temple.

Daniel 9:26-27

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

26 After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven'[he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.

The point I was making is that even the armies surrounding the city and coming into the temple area was considered a desolation of the sacred to the Jews. Besides the abomination of desolation Jesus makes mention of God's house being desolate. His 'house' can be a reference to the city or the temple, or both.

Matthew 23:37-38

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate.

Jesus also makes mention of Jerusalem being made desolate, just as Daniel did, and by armies that surround the city.

Luke 21:20

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near.

Both happen in the last days. The question is when were/are they? So your argument does not work. As Daniel said, 'desolations' - plural, as well as the abomination of desolation - singular.

Peter

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1 Corinthians 10:11

7 Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written: “The people sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in revelry.” 8 We should not commit sexual immorality, as some of them did—and in one day twenty-three thousand of them died. 9 We should not test Christ, as some of them did—and were killed by snakes. 10And do not grumble, as some of them did—and were killed by the destroying angel.

11 These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the culmination of the ages has come. 12 So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall! 13 No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.

and it simply does not even speak of the end times , least alone that it had already come -Danielzk

Not in your way of looking at Scripture, but it is concerned with the Old Covenant. Their forefathers were baptize into Moses, we into Christ. They tested the Lord and they perished. The warning is for these brothers also, on whom the fulfillment of the ages had come. The nation was about to get its final judgment. These NT believers were also under temptation not only from the Jews to turn back to Judaism, but from idolatry and soon to come also from the Romans. Paul is warning them not to be idolators for they were baptized with Christ into the New Covenant.

I say this to show you how you are going off track to what the scriptures are teaching ./ hoping that you'd see that you need to rethink what you think is correct

what you are trying to do is like a Muslim trying to apply end time bible scripture to the Koran ,, it does not fit , it won't won't work -Danielzk

I've never been compared to a Muslim before. I am looking at Scripture and comparing Scripture with Scripture because I believe that Scripture interprets itself. You take a passage like Matthew 24 where Jesus is specifically speaking to His disciples and you apply it to your own times, but what is God actually saying in the Scripture. Jesus said to His disciples after they asked Him a three pronged question:

'Watch out that no one deceives YOU.' It carries on and on as Jesus answers His disciples questions and He keeps using the second person singular - you, you, you. And He says to them that all this will come upon this generation. You turn 'you' into us, twenty centuries removed, and you turn 'this' generation into 'that' generation all in the name of interpreting the Scriptures 'literally'. I don't buy it. You have to understand the context and the figures of speech as they understood them. How are the terms like 'coming in the clouds' or 'heaven and earth' used in the OT, because these people who He was talking to were steeped into the Old Covenant.

the preterist view proclaims that the end times prophecies have already happened back in 70AD,, but no they have not happened yet , learn about what specific prophecies have come true in this generation ,, , -Danielzk

What prophecies have come true in this generation???

this is why I really don't want to go much further as you won't even acknowledge what is correct proven by scripture , -Danielzk

That is fine. It is not like I'm forcing you. I debate because I'm interested in eschatology and I like to think my position through. When someone challenges what I believe I like to test it with Scripture and try to reason it out. I'm not new to this. I've been testing Scripture since the early 1980's when I made a profession of faith. I've been misled before and I'm sure I will be again, but during that time I have also seen God confirm His word in areas I struggled with, such as whether a believer could lose their faith or the creation/evolution issue.

I only try to help you with pieces of the puzzle as I have no intention of walking you through it all ,,preterist view is inaccurate on many levels and scripture does indeed prove it , just because I don't want to spend months pointing it out in all the ways that it is inaccurate does not mean that the scripture does not prove it false

the best way to get an understanding is to do a few month long study of prophecies , Ezekiel prophesied that Israel would be reborn as a nation May 14 1948 ,,it has exactly that day , further the 6 day war , and many other prophecies that have come true exactly as foretold in this modern generation ,, -Danielzk

Which ones are they? I find it amazing how people interpret language that speaks of swords and horses and make it fit our times, all in the name of a literal interpretation. The same thing happens in Matthew 24 where the people are told to flee, not even going back for their cloaks. They pick and choose what is to be taken literally and what is not to be taken literally.

Peter

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Hi Roy,

Did I answer your post on the fifth kingdom that you speak of in Daniel 2?

Peter

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Hi Danielzk,

If you are going to apply prophecy always so literally, then who does Jesus address when He says 'you' in Matthew 24? Are we going to be in a period of time where the sword is in uses again?

Just as when Jesus says "when you see the abomination that makes desolate spoken by Daniel the Prophet " do not go back to get your coat or possessions ,,,simply because the antichrist has declared to kill Jews ,, so Jesus is telling the future time Jews in Judea that they need to run to the hills for safety ,, immediately after hearing about the abomination the antichrist commits by desecrating the throne ,,run for their lives because there will not be time enough to go back to the house to gather belongings ,, if someone tries that , they will be killed before they get away ,, -Danielzk

Luke 21:20-24

New International Version (NIV)

20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

If you are going to take everything literally then when Jesus said over and over again in the NT 'this generation' applying to those He was bodily among, then why are you changing it to 'that' generation in Matthew 24?

When He says the same things in Matthew 24 as He does in Matthew 10 and it applies to the disciples, then why in Matthew 24 are you trying to make it apply to a future generation. You see my friend, it confuses the whole of Scripture and makes it say other than what it actually says.

Matthew 10:5-7

New International Version (NIV)

5 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. 6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. 7 As you go, proclaim this message: ‘The kingdom of heaven has come near.’

Matthew 10:11-23

New International Version (NIV)

11 Whatever town or village you enter, search there for some worthy person and stay at their house until you leave. 12 As you enter the home, give it your greeting. 13 If the home is deserving, let your peace rest on it; if it is not, let your peace return to you. 14 If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet. 15 Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.

16 “I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves. 17 Be on your guard; you will be handed over to the local councils and be flogged in the synagogues. 18 On my account you will be brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them and to the Gentiles. 19 But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, 20 for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

21 Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 22 You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 23 When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

Now make a comparison between Matthew 10 and Matthew 24 and tell me that Jesus is speaking primarily to another generation of people. You have to twist the Scriptures into a pretzel to ignore these similarities.

There are many more passages that we could do this exercise with concerning Matthew 24, all speaking of the 1st century. What does this tell you Danielzk?

I'm out of time, but I hope to continue with your post later this week. I'll cover some of the specific Scriptural references you provide in Revelation.

Peter

Matthew 24:3-35

New International Version (NIV)

3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.

9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.

26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

29 “Immediately after the distress of those days

“‘the sun will be darkened,

and the moon will not give its light;

the stars will fall from the sky,

and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’[b]

30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth[c] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.[d]31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

32 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[e] is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

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Hi Danielzk,

If you are going to apply prophecy always so literally, then who does Jesus address when He says 'you' in Matthew 24? Are we going to be in a period of time where the sword is in uses again?

Just as when Jesus says "when you see the abomination that makes desolate spoken by Daniel the Prophet " do not go back to get your coat or possessions ,,,simply because the antichrist has declared to kill Jews ,, so Jesus is telling the future time Jews in Judea that they need to run to the hills for safety ,, immediately after hearing about the abomination the antichrist commits by desecrating the throne ,,run for their lives because there will not be time enough to go back to the house to gather belongings ,, if someone tries that , they will be killed before they get away ,, -Danielzk

Luke 21:20-24

New International Version (NIV)

20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

If you are going to take everything literally then when Jesus said over and over again in the NT 'this generation' applying to those He was bodily among, then why are you changing it to 'that' generation in Matthew 24?

When He says the same things in Matthew 24 as He does in Matthew 10 and it applies to the disciples, then why in Matthew 24 are you trying to make it apply to a future generation. You see my friend, it confuses the whole of Scripture and makes it say other than what it actually says.

Matthew 10:5-7

New International Version (NIV)

5 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. 6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. 7 As you go, proclaim this message: ‘The kingdom of heaven has come near.’

Matthew 10:11-23

New International Version (NIV)

11 Whatever town or village you enter, search there for some worthy person and stay at their house until you leave. 12 As you enter the home, give it your greeting. 13 If the home is deserving, let your peace rest on it; if it is not, let your peace return to you. 14 If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet. 15 Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.

16 “I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves. 17 Be on your guard; you will be handed over to the local councils and be flogged in the synagogues. 18 On my account you will be brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them and to the Gentiles. 19 But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, 20 for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

21 Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 22 You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 23 When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

Now make a comparison between Matthew 10 and Matthew 24 and tell me that Jesus is speaking primarily to another generation of people. You have to twist the Scriptures into a pretzel to ignore these similarities.

There are many more passages that we could do this exercise with concerning Matthew 24, all speaking of the 1st century. What does this tell you Danielzk?

I'm out of time, but I hope to continue with your post later this week. I'll cover some of the specific Scriptural references you provide in Revelation.

Peter

Matthew 24:3-35

New International Version (NIV)

3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.

9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.

26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

29 “Immediately after the distress of those days

“‘the sun will be darkened,

and the moon will not give its light;

the stars will fall from the sky,

and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’[b]

30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth[c] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.[d]31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

32 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[e] is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

PGA

First of all, What will be, or can be the weapons of war be say 7 years or 15 years from now? Are you positive that they will be the weapons we use now? Who saw and who wrote down the Prophecy as given by God?

There was no Second Coming of the King of King's and the Lord of Lord's in 70 AD, or anytime. Nothing changed, Rome still ruled and continued to do so until about 350 AD. They were not defeated by another kingdom. All do not believe in Christ, so all do not follow HIm. It seams odd that you advocate a Second Coming when nothing has changed.

You hang on to the past, which has not come to pass. A key is to look at the fig tree. When it begins to bud we know that summer is near. The same with the signs, when they begin to unfold we know that the end is near. It is this generation who sees these things happening that will see the end. Matt 24::7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom (again Rome was still in control until about 350 AD) so this never happened at the time of 70 AD. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of birth pains.

Matt 24 - Immediately after the distress of those days; The sun will be darkened, the moon will not give off its light, the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.v 30 - At that time, the sing of the Son of Man will appear in the sky (the Second Coming) and all the nations of the earth will mourn.. They will seen the Son of Man coming in the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. Compare to Zech 14:6 - On that day, there will be no light, no cold or frost, It will be a unique day without daytime or nighttime, a day known to the Lord, when evening comes there will be light. v. 9 - On that day, there will be one Lord and His name the only name.

But in 70 AD Ceasar was Lord and Master. v 20 - On that day, "Holy to the Lord" will be inscribed on the bells of the horses.

There has been no Record of the Second Coming in or around 70 AD or any other time. If so, "This Generation" is a future generation. When you see these things happening, Nation against Nation and Kingdom against KIngdom. The bud is out, the birth pains are beginning. This is just now beginning in our generation.

In Christ

Montana Marv

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