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Was AD 70 the Parousia?

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#1
Bold Believer

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The key to understanding eschatology is primarily in how the timeline affects the Scriptures and moreover, what Jesus said would (and did) happen. First, we need to remember what the word eschatology means. Study of last things. Eschatos means last, specifically, last in order. If I list 1.2.3.4.5, the number 5 is eschatos.
So when a biblical figure speaks of last, he's not necessarily referring to the parousia. Likewise with the words 'end' and 'world'. For example the phrase in the KJV used in Matthew 24 'end of the world' is actually end of the age (aeon). Sometimes, it's difficult to gather whether the Parousia or simply the end of an age is being spoken of.

Parable of the Marriage Feast

1 Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying, 2 “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son. 3 “And he sent out his slaves to call those who had been invited to the wedding feast, and they were unwilling to come. 4 “Again he sent out other slaves saying, ‘Tell those who have been invited, “Behold, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and my fattened livestock are all butchered and everything is ready; come to the wedding feast.”’ 5 “But they paid no attention and went their way, one to his own farm, another to his business, 6 and the rest seized his slaves and mistreated them and killed them. 7 “But the king was enraged, and he sent his armies and destroyed those murderers and set their city on fire. 8 “Then he said to his slaves, ‘The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. 9 ‘Go therefore to the main highways, and as many as you find there, invite to the wedding feast.’ 10 “Those slaves went out into the streets and gathered together all they found, both evil and good; and the wedding hall was filled with dinner guests.

11 “But when the king came in to look over the dinner guests, he saw a man there who was not dressed in wedding clothes, 12 and he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you come in here without wedding clothes?’ And the man was speechless. 13 “Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.”

From the context we can derive:

Israel was the one invited to the wedding feast. Jesus tells us 'they were unwilling to come.'

The inviting king is God.

The servants are the prophets and apostles.

The prophets (and later the apostles and saints) were mistreated and killed.

God sent His armies, destroyed the murderers and set their city on fire.

God then sends out his servants to gather in all kinds of people.

Then finally God judges the dinner guests and casts out the unfit.

This is an eschatological parable and alludes to the coming destruction of Jerusalem, the subsequent gathering of the nations and then the last (judgment) day.

In Mt 23:27-39, Jesus castigates the Scribes and Pharisees

27"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness.

28 "So you, too, outwardly appear righteous to men, but inwardly you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.

29 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous,

30 and say, 'If we had been living in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.'

31 "So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets.

32 "Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers.

33 "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?

34 "Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city,

35 so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.

36 "Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

37 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.

38"Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!

39"For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, "BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD!'"

This prophecy refers strictly to the destruction of Jerusalem. (When Jesus uses the name of the city here, he seems to be using it much the same way as we do when we say "Washington did so and so," using the name of the city to refer to the government seated there, in this case, the Sanhedrin.) The destruction of Jerusalem signifies the end of the age of types and shadows and the beginning of the Messianic era with truths and realities realized in and through the Lord Jesus. Notice the stark stern statement in v 36: ALL THESE THINGS WILL COME UPON THIS GENERATION (the one to whom he was speaking).

Luke 21 is the Mt 24 parallel passage which is much plainer concerning Jerusalem and her fate. Both are eschatological to the end of the age and both give a timeline.

1. Persecution first (another parallel to this is Rev 13 the beast making war on the saints for 3.5 times [years]) which was the Neronic persecution 64-68 AD
2. False Christs saying that they are THE Christ.
3. Then wars and rumors of wars: Civil war in Rome after the death of Nero
4. Nation against nation and kingdom against kingdom; Unrest through the whole Empire
5. Earthquakes, plagues and famines and signs in the heavens (basically he hints at what he reveals totally to John in Revelation)
6. The siege of Jerusalem and the days of vengeance as the city is trampled by the Gentiles until the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled
7. The Son of Man coming on a cloud with great power and much glory

It's the last phrase which leads a lot of people to believe that this means the Parousia (Second Coming). It doesn't, and there are firm reasons why it doesn't.

Reason #1: Jesus uses a totally different word for coming...erchomai, which can mean either come OR go, and furthermore can mean to establish or make something known (in this case, that He is Messiah, a fact established by His actions).

Reason #2: There are survivors of the event. At the Second Coming, there are no survivors, the earth and all of its works are burned up (2 Peter 3:10, Rev 20:9)

Reason #3: There are things which occur after this shekinah-glory cloud appearing. The LORD is showing himself strong and mighty here, not destroying the former earth. He's about to make his enemies his footstool (Ps. 110)

Reason #4: It would be THAT GENERATION which would see all the things He spoke of come to pass. He spoke all of the dire warnings to those who would be affected by them in the time-span of that generation. A mere 40 years or so after He spoke those words, IT ALL CAME TO PASS.

A full preterist will try to make the argument that the AD 70 events constituted the Second Coming. The Greek words and the events which take place in 70 AD don't bear that out though. There IS a Second Coming, and it occurs after the Millennium, the Second Coming and Judgment Day are the same event. To Believers, it's gathering together to Jesus, a completion of the Body of Christ. To the Unbelievers, it's fire falling from the sky to burn up everything and a date with a God in whom they refused to believe upon, a look at the Devil they followed and a consignment to the Lake of Fire with that Devil and all the fallen angels.
To Believers, it's a judgment of reward or no reward followed by eternal life (I Cor 3), to Unbelievers it's a judgment of works followed by eternal death.

#2
Fraught

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so let me get this straight - 2nd coming occurs after the millenium ? and when does that occur ? after mostly understanding the other post 'no 7-year trib. . .' , i admit that now i am a little confused.

can you give a few more details, especially as regards my question above ?

#3
Matthitjah

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Grace to you,

Was AD 70 the Parousia?


Nope! :thumbsup:

2Th 2:1
¶ Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2Th 2:2
That you be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, that the day of the Lord is at hand.

2Th 2:3
¶ Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come the falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

2Th 2:4
Who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

2Th 2:5
Do you not remember, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

Peace,
dave

#4
Cobalt1959

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There is absolutely no reason to see "this generation" in verse 34 as speaking specifically to the disciples and their generation. This is a huge error and many people misunderstand this passage because they attempt to make it apply to the disciples, or a generation that begins with the re-establishment of Israel in 1948. It means the generation that sees what Jesus is talking about that will happen, beginning in verse 15.

#5
FresnoJoe

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Grace to you,

Was AD 70 the Parousia?


Nope! :thumbsup:

2Th 2:1
¶ Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2Th 2:2
That you be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, that the day of the Lord is at hand.

2Th 2:3
¶ Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come the falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

2Th 2:4
Who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

2Th 2:5
Do you not remember, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

Peace,
dave

:thumbsup:

>>>>>()<<<<<

Where's That World-Wide World-Class Chomper?

Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. Daniel 7:23

And Mankind's Last Gasp?

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Matthew 24:21-22

And The Morning Of All Israel?

And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.
Zechariah 12:10-14

And The Singing And The Joy Of The Daughters Of Zion?

For thus saith the LORD of hosts; After the glory hath he sent me unto the nations which spoiled you: for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye.
For, behold, I will shake mine hand upon them, and they shall be a spoil to their servants: and ye shall know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me.
Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the LORD.
And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto thee.
And the LORD shall inherit Judah his portion in the holy land, and shall choose Jerusalem again.
Zechariah 2:8-12

And The Thousand Year Reign Of The LORD?

And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Revelation 20:2-3

On Jerusalem's

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Revelation 20:4

Holy Hill?

Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. Psalms 2:6

And Then Gone! All Gone!

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. Revelation 20:11

And The New Earth

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. Revelation 21:1

And Saint's Haven Forever!

And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Revelation 21:2-5

Wow!

Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
John 14:1-3

#6
Bold Believer

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so let me get this straight - 2nd coming occurs after the millenium ? and when does that occur ? after mostly understanding the other post 'no 7-year trib. . .' , i admit that now i am a little confused.

can you give a few more details, especially as regards my question above ?


Here is a basic BIBLICAL timeline regarding eschatology.

1. Christ comes to die for our sins and be resurrected.

2. Jesus warns godless Israel that they are guilty of the blood of the saints and prophets and that their house (the temple) is left unto them desolate. (Mt 22) He furthermore tells them that the judgment will come before the end of the generation to which he was speaking.

3. Jesus tells the righteous portion of Israel that that there will be great tribulation and Jerusalem and the temple will be destroyed. (Mt 24 and corresponding passages in Mark and Luke)

4. Jesus dies, is resurrected, ascends into Heaven to be at the right hand of the Father. At the last supper, He confirms the covenant with many (Daniel 9) His death causes the daily sacrifice and the oblation to cease (also daniel 9) because His sacrifice is greater than that of bulls, goats and turledoves, being offered once for all (Hebrews 9).

5. The Church sets out from Jerusalem to give the Gospel in fulfillment of Isaiah 2.

6. The godless portion of Israel (the corrupt leadership and all those who follow it) persecutes the Church under Roman authority. Even Paul (as Saul of Tarsus) was in on it until Jesus appeared to Him.

7. Nero initiates a great persecution of the Church in fulfillment of Daniel 7's Little Horn prophecy.This lasts 3.5 years. It is also spoken of in Revelation 13 as the Beast making war with the saints and prevailing.

8. Summer of AD 66, the Jewish leadership defies Roman authority and Rome sends in the troops. The Church (having been forewarned) goes to Pella, high up in the hills, before the tribulation begins.

9. Nero kills himself (with assistance from a secretary) by plunging a sword through his throat. The Empire falls into chaos. There is question as to whether it will even survive. Galba becomes emperor, but his reign lasts only a short time (which John mentions in Revelation) Vespasian becomes emperor and sends his son (Daniel's prince of the people who will come) Titus at the head of the army to deal with rebellious Jerusalem as God prepares to have His Vengeance (Luke 21:22) and uses the Roman Army to do it. The lover (Rome) kills the woman (wicked Israel) and burns with fire (torches the city, destroys the temple)

10. Christ is the True Initiator of the Days of Vengeance, illustrated by John in Revelation 19 when he writes of Christ coming at the head of Heaven's armies in a figurative victory march written to resemble a Roman victory parade.

11. Satan is bound at the destruction of Jerusalem and cast into the bottomless pit. Per John, this is done so that the nations can no longer be deceived. The Church goes out and begins to convert the nations. Christianity becomes the predominant teaching influence world-wide. John describes this period of time as the thousand years.

12. Eventually Christianity loses its pre-eminence. Satan is released from the bottomless pit and immediately gathers up the godless from around the world to go forth and do battle against the teaching of Christ. John calls this Gog and Magog. He also states that when Gog and Magog nearly have the people of God surrounded (John calls the Christians 'the Holy City'), Christ comes and the righteous are resurrected or raptured alive and Gog and Magog are burned up, along with all the earth and its works. (Rev 20:9, II Peter 2:10) The godless are judged, cast into Gehenna along with the devil who deceived them and the Church comes down out of Heaven like a Bride adorned for her husband, without spot or wrinkle. (Eph 5, Rev 21)

12.

#7
nebula

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11. Satan is bound at the destruction of Jerusalem and cast into the bottomless pit.

This is the biggest part of all of what you said I don't get.

The past 2000 years have been full of Satan's activities. Even the "Church" became a stronghold for demons.

What kind of "reign of Christ" was that?



Per John, this is done so that the nations can no longer be deceived.


China, India, North Korea, Iran, Iraq, Indonesia, Saudi Arabia, . . . .


No longer deceived? :hmmm:



The Church goes out and begins to convert the nations.

Only a handful of the world's nations could have been considered "Christianized" as a nation. And even then, it didn't always last. The "Christian" Byzantine Empire fell to Islam over 1000 years ago.


Christianity becomes the predominant teaching influence world-wide.

That's debatable.


John describes this period of time as the thousand years.

And this makes no sense whatsoever.

#8
FresnoJoe

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.... Christ is the True Initiator of the Days of Vengeance, illustrated by John in Revelation 19 when he writes of Christ coming at the head of Heaven's armies in a figurative victory march written to resemble a Roman victory parade....

Figurative

Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Behold, I have told you before.
Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Matthew 24:23-37

Really?

And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
Revelation 19:17-21

And Except For The Few Unfortunate Souls Who Faced Rome's Legions
It Was Kinda A Non Event Considering The Bible's Account Of The Day Of The Wrath Of Messiah At His Second Coming, You Think

For thus saith the LORD of hosts; After the glory hath he sent me unto the nations which spoiled you: for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye.
For, behold, I will shake mine hand upon them, and they shall be a spoil to their servants: and ye shall know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me.
Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the LORD.
Zechariah 2:8-10

Pray For The Peace Of Jerusalem

<<<<<()>>>>>

Wonderful Thread Dear Brother

#9
lekh l'kha

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Hi BB.

1. Can you divorce the N.T fulfilment of prophecy from the Old Testament prophecy so that the N.T fulfilment of the prophecy does not occur as the prophecy stated it would occur?

Did God judge the armies that had gathered against Jerusalem in 70 A.D?

2. You ignore the word "UNTIL" in one of the verses you quote as though it's absolutely meaningless:

Do you even care that you do this?

From the context we can derive:

Israel was the one invited to the wedding feast. Jesus tells us 'they were unwilling to come.'

The inviting king is God.

The servants are the prophets and apostles.

The prophets (and later the apostles and saints) were mistreated and killed.

God sent His armies, destroyed the murderers and set their city on fire.

God then sends out his servants to gather in all kinds of people.

Then finally God judges the dinner guests and casts out the unfit.

This is an eschatological parable and alludes to the coming destruction of Jerusalem, the subsequent gathering of the nations and then the last (judgment) day.

36 "Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

37 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.

38"Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!

39"For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, "BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD!'"


"For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me UNTIL you say, "blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!'"

Did you know that the Jews sing this both at the time of the Feast of Passover AND again at the time of the Feast of Tabernacles, the first and the last feasts of the calender, each of which is a seven-day feast?

Did you know that at the time of the Feast of Passover, the Jews sing this while symbolically waving their hands to represent the waving of the sheaf (Lev.23:10-12) and the offering of the Passover Lamb?

Did you know that at the time of Feast of Tabernacles the Jews sing this waving palm-branches (Lev.23:39-40)?

Did you know that the first feast is linked to the Messiah coming as a sacrificial Lamb, and the last feast is linked to the Messiah coming as a conquering king to set up His Kingdom?

Did you know that the first feast is linked to the first coming of the Messiah, and the last feast to His second coming?

Do you even care?

Did you know that only once ever, while singing "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD", the Jews switched the symbolic waving of the hands at Passover time for the waving of Palm branches - when Jesus entered Jerusalem on a donkey (because they were praising him as the conquering king who had come to judge their enemies and set up His Kingdom, but not as the Lamb of God who would be sacrificed)?

Did you know that every time we celebrate "Palm Sunday" with Palm branches instead of the symbolic waving of the hands, we are repeating a mistake?

Can you divorce the N.T fulfilment of prophecy from the Old Testament prophecy so that the fulfilment of the prophecy does not occur as the prophecy stated it would occur?

Did God judge the armies that had gathered against Jerusalem in 70 A.D?

"For I will gather all nations to battle against Jerusalem; and the city shall be taken, and the houses plundered, and the women raped. And half of the city shall go into exile, and the rest of the people shall not be cut off from the city. And Jehovah shall go out and fight against those nations, like the day He fought in the day of battle." (Zec 14:2-3)

Did Jehovah fight against the armies of the Roman Empire in 70 A.D?

"For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me UNTIL you say, "blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!'"

Do you even care that you ignore the word "until" in the Word of God as though what God says is meaningless?

"And they shall fall by the sword's edge. And shall be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem shall be trodden down by the nations until the times of the nations is fulfilled." (Luk 21:24)

"Then, indeed, these coming together, they asked Him, saying, Lord, do You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel? And He said to them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father has put in His own authority. But you shall receive power, the Holy Spirit coming upon you. And you shall be witnesses to Me both in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and to the end of the earth." (Act 1:6-8)

"Therefore repent and convert so that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord. And He shall send Jesus Christ, who before was proclaimed to you, whom Heaven truly needs to receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of His holy prophets since the world began." (Act 3:19-21)

"For I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, lest you should be wise within yourselves; that blindness in part has happened to Israel, until the fullness of the nations has comes in." (Rom 11:25).

Do you care that you ignore the word "until" in the Word of God as though it is meaningless?

Do you care that you are taking God for a liar with regard to His everlasting promises to Abraham?

Do you think the Gentile believers in Messiah are so much better than the Jews that only the Jews deserved to be cut off because of their unbelief of, and twisting of the Word of God?

Do you really believe that God is so impotent against the power of Satan that the only way He is able to fulfil His promise to set His King on His holy hill of Zion (Ps.2:6) and reign all nations from His throne in Jerusalem, is to create a new heavens and new earth first?

Do you care that your theology negates God's everlasting promises to Abraham and king David and turns them into something completely different to what Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, the prophets and the apostles of Jesus understood them to mean?

"Blindness in part" (Rom.11: 25) has not happened to the unbelieving Jews, BB - because they are cut off from Israel. Blindness in part has happened to you - and it falls under the heading "spiritual kingdom of Christ".

The kingdom of Christ which God promised Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses and the prophets of Israel and king David is what God promised it would be - and it will come just at the right time in accordance with the jubilee cycles that God Himself established - 7 X 7 years competes the cycle and the Jubilee year is the 50th year and the beginning of a new cycle.

ALL key events in Israel's history took place at just the right time in accordance with the jubilee cycle - including the coming of Messiah - and the seventh millennium since the fall of Adam, the sabbath millennium. The cycles in the Bible shows us this. But do you even care about the fact that you flatly ignore it because it doesn't fit in with your own personal interpretation of God's Word and God's promises?

God is not impotent, BB. And He did not promise one thing and mean another. The Kingdom of Christ has come but it is still to come.

Sorry if I'm sounding harsh. But really, BB, you should stop ignoring the Word of God simply because the Word of God doesn't fit your theology.

#10
nebula

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Wow, that was good, Lekh!

#11
lekh l'kha

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Wow, that was good, Lekh!


I've mentioned those things to BB before, but he ignored it, wouldn't address it, and just continues on with the same arguments, as though the rest of the Bible doesn't exist, except the parts he uses for his theology. BB's a good brother, I like him very much. Sometimes the only way to debate is to debate in a harsh kind of way. Don't like doing that with Bold Believer. But.... hope he knows I'm actually still playing the ball and not the man, because I do have respect for the man.

#12
Bold Believer

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Hi BB.

1. Can you divorce the N.T fulfilment of prophecy from the Old Testament prophecy so that the N.T fulfilment of the prophecy does not occur as the prophecy stated it would occur?

Did God judge the armies that had gathered against Jerusalem in 70 A.D?

2. You ignore the word "UNTIL" in one of the verses you quote as though it's absolutely meaningless:

Do you even care that you do this?



From the context we can derive:

Israel was the one invited to the wedding feast. Jesus tells us 'they were unwilling to come.'

The inviting king is God.

The servants are the prophets and apostles.

The prophets (and later the apostles and saints) were mistreated and killed.

God sent His armies, destroyed the murderers and set their city on fire.

God then sends out his servants to gather in all kinds of people.

Then finally God judges the dinner guests and casts out the unfit.

This is an eschatological parable and alludes to the coming destruction of Jerusalem, the subsequent gathering of the nations and then the last (judgment) day.

36 "Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

37 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.

38"Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!

39"For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, "BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD!'"


"For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me UNTIL you say, "blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!'"

Did you know that the Jews sing this both at the time of the Feast of Passover AND again at the time of the Feast of Tabernacles, the first and the last feasts of the calender, each of which is a seven-day feast?

Did you know that at the time of the Feast of Passover, the Jews sing this while symbolically waving their hands to represent the waving of the sheaf (Lev.23:10-12) and the offering of the Passover Lamb?

Did you know that at the time of Feast of Tabernacles the Jews sing this waving palm-branches (Lev.23:39-40)?

Did you know that the first feast is linked to the Messiah coming as a sacrificial Lamb, and the last feast is linked to the Messiah coming as a conquering king to set up His Kingdom?

Did you know that the first feast is linked to the first coming of the Messiah, and the last feast to His second coming?

Do you even care?

Did you know that only once ever, while singing "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD", the Jews switched the symbolic waving of the hands at Passover time for the waving of Palm branches - when Jesus entered Jerusalem on a donkey (because they were praising him as the conquering king who had come to judge their enemies and set up His Kingdom, but not as the Lamb of God who would be sacrificed)?

Did you know that every time we celebrate "Palm Sunday" with Palm branches instead of the symbolic waving of the hands, we are repeating a mistake?

Can you divorce the N.T fulfilment of prophecy from the Old Testament prophecy so that the fulfilment of the prophecy does not occur as the prophecy stated it would occur?

Did God judge the armies that had gathered against Jerusalem in 70 A.D?

"For I will gather all nations to battle against Jerusalem; and the city shall be taken, and the houses plundered, and the women raped. And half of the city shall go into exile, and the rest of the people shall not be cut off from the city. And Jehovah shall go out and fight against those nations, like the day He fought in the day of battle." (Zec 14:2-3)

Did Jehovah fight against the armies of the Roman Empire in 70 A.D?

"For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me UNTIL you say, "blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!'"

Do you even care that you ignore the word "until" in the Word of God as though what God says is meaningless?

"And they shall fall by the sword's edge. And shall be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem shall be trodden down by the nations until the times of the nations is fulfilled." (Luk 21:24)

"Then, indeed, these coming together, they asked Him, saying, Lord, do You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel? And He said to them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father has put in His own authority. But you shall receive power, the Holy Spirit coming upon you. And you shall be witnesses to Me both in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and to the end of the earth." (Act 1:6-8)

"Therefore repent and convert so that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord. And He shall send Jesus Christ, who before was proclaimed to you, whom Heaven truly needs to receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of His holy prophets since the world began." (Act 3:19-21)

"For I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, lest you should be wise within yourselves; that blindness in part has happened to Israel, until the fullness of the nations has comes in." (Rom 11:25).

Do you care that you ignore the word "until" in the Word of God as though it is meaningless?

Do you care that you are taking God for a liar with regard to His everlasting promises to Abraham?

Do you think the Gentile believers in Messiah are so much better than the Jews that only the Jews deserved to be cut off because of their unbelief of, and twisting of the Word of God?

Do you really believe that God is so impotent against the power of Satan that the only way He is able to fulfil His promise to set His King on His holy hill of Zion (Ps.2:6) and reign all nations from His throne in Jerusalem, is to create a new heavens and new earth first?

Do you care that your theology negates God's everlasting promises to Abraham and king David and turns them into something completely different to what Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, the prophets and the apostles of Jesus understood them to mean?

"Blindness in part" (Rom.11: 25) has not happened to the unbelieving Jews, BB - because they are cut off from Israel. Blindness in part has happened to you - and it falls under the heading "spiritual kingdom of Christ".

The kingdom of Christ which God promised Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses and the prophets of Israel and king David is what God promised it would be - and it will come just at the right time in accordance with the jubilee cycles that God Himself established - 7 X 7 years competes the cycle and the Jubilee year is the 50th year and the beginning of a new cycle.

ALL key events in Israel's history took place at just the right time in accordance with the jubilee cycle - including the coming of Messiah - and the seventh millennium since the fall of Adam, the sabbath millennium. The cycles in the Bible shows us this. But do you even care about the fact that you flatly ignore it because it doesn't fit in with your own personal interpretation of God's Word and God's promises?

God is not impotent, BB. And He did not promise one thing and mean another. The Kingdom of Christ has come but it is still to come.

Sorry if I'm sounding harsh. But really, BB, you should stop ignoring the Word of God simply because the Word of God doesn't fit your theology.


Nothing wrong with a good sharp debate, Lekh. Doesn't offend me at all. In fact, if anything, it shows me hey, someone is listening.

The problem with pre-millennialism is that it OVER literalizes. All of the promises given to Israel are IN CHRIST, and cannot be given to ethnic Jews until repentance occurs. If a Jew doesn't believe in Messiah Yeshua, he or she doesn't get the promises. Plain and simple. There are not two types of salvation, one for Jews and another for Gentiles. It's all in Messiah.

Not only that, the Kingdom of God is not 'spiritual' in substance, but spiritual in NATURE. The command of Christ was to go to into the world and teach the nations whatever He commanded us, because all authority in heaven and Earth were Christ's. Satan was unable to stop the Gospel from going to those whom intended it for. There are not going to be any restored sacrifices, symbolic or otherwise. Believers, whether Jewish or Gentile are priests to our God offering spiritual sacrifices to our God.

Jesus DID judge the armies which laid waste to Jerusalem. He destroyed the entire Roman Beast civilization.

Christian teaching WAS the pre-eminent teaching for thousands of years. It's only recently that Christianity has fallen into disrepute. Isaiah 2 has been fulfilled. The knowledge of the LORD has gone out over the world as the waters cover the seas.

#13
FresnoJoe

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.... The problem with pre-millennialism is that it OVER literalizes. All of the promises given to Israel are IN CHRIST, and cannot be given to ethnic Jews until repentance occurs.


The Problem Lies Not Within The Literal Word Of God

And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.

And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;

The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;

All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.
Zechariah 12:9-14

But Within The Philosophy Of Man

And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. Romans 12:2

>>>>>()<<<<<

.... There are not two types of salvation, one for Jews and another for Gentiles. It's all in Messiah....

The Problem Lies Not Within The Literal Words Of God

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
Romans 11:25-29

But Within The Philosophy Of Man

For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counseller?

Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?

For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
Romans 11:30-38

See?

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Not of works, lest any man should boast.

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Ephesians 2:8-10

>>>>>()<<<<<

God

Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me? Jeremiah 32:27

Is So Able

And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?
And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.
Mark 10:26-27

Beloved Rejoice In Him

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:

If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever. Jeremiah 31:31-36

And Pray For The Salvation Of Israel With Great Joy Knowing He Is Faithful And True

Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.
Psalms 122:6

>>>>>()<<<<<

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:
The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:
The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them.
Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Your Brother Joe

>>>>>()<<<<<

The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.
Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.
And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
Zechariah 12:1-3

#14
Matthitjah

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Grace to you,

Paul was having the same problem with Full Pre-Terism. :thumbsup:

Here's how he handeled it;

2Ti 2:18
Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

There is only one ressurection of the Just. :thumbsup:

peace,
Dave

#15
Bold Believer

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Grace to you,

Paul was having the same problem with Full Pre-Terism. :thumbsup:

Here's how he handeled it;

2Ti 2:18
Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

There is only one ressurection of the Just. :thumbsup:

peace,
Dave


Amen. That resurrection occurs on the Last Day, which Scripture calls the Parousia. It can't occur before that Day, and pre-millennialism says it does, which is the PRINCIPLE reason I must reject it theologically and Biblically. The resurrection is NOT past. It has not yet occurred.

#16
wyguy

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I have never understood how anyone could accept Preterism. Seriously...


1. Was the Gospel preached to all the nations by 70 AD?

2. Was the Mark of the Beast implemented by 70 AD?

3. 200 million man army by 70 AD?

4. Did the Euphrates river dry up by 70 AD?

5. Did the bodily resurrection of all Christians occur in 70 AD?

Etc., etc., etc.

#17
FresnoJoe

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There is only one resurrection of the Just. :thumbsup:

Amen. That resurrection occurs on the Last Day, which Scripture calls the Parousia. It can't occur before that Day, and pre-millennialism says it does, which is the PRINCIPLE reason I must reject it theologically and Biblically. The resurrection is NOT past. It has not yet occurred.

Of Course We Know There Are Two Resurrections! The First Resurrection Is The Resurrection Of The Just

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
1 Thessalonians 4:14-18

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Revelation 20:4

And, A Thousand Years Latter The Second Resurrection, The Resurrection Of The Damned

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Revelation 20:5-7

It Would Help If One Fell In Love With The Jew

Is Ephraim my dear son? is he a pleasant child? for since I spake against him, I do earnestly remember him still: therefore my bowels are troubled for him; I will surely have mercy upon him, saith the LORD. Jeremiah 31:20

And With His Holy Book

Consider how I love thy precepts: quicken me, O LORD, according to thy lovingkindness.
Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.
Psalms 119:159-160

Simply Believing

For thus saith the LORD of hosts; After the glory hath he sent me unto the nations which spoiled you: for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye.
For, behold, I will shake mine hand upon them, and they shall be a spoil to their servants: and ye shall know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me.
Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the LORD.
Zackariah 2:8-10

Jesus Saves

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins
. Romans 11:26-27

#18
paulrichard

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The coming in judgment upon the City of First Century Jerusalem was a real "coming of the Lord". Jesus forewarned the City in the last section of Matthew 23 that the righteous wrath of God from the beginning of covenant history would take place within the generation listening to Him at that moment. This is interesting that it precedes the chapter dealing with our Lord's foretelling of the utter destruction of the City of First Century Jerusalem, in agreement with what the Ancient Hebrew Prophet Daniel had seen about the "Abomination that makes (Jerusalem) desolate (empty). Such a tragedy. Josephus claimed that more than 1 million people died in the City of First Century Jerusalem during the 3 and 1/2 year siege by the Romans, prior to the destruction of the City, the leading out of the survivors to be sold into slavery, the levelling of the beautiful Temple, and the burning of the City.
Since the Lord Jesus foretold this "coming", and since history documents this "coming", why should not all who love the Lord Jesus see this is as amazing fulfilled prophecy?
God bless, in the King of kings


Hi Paul...edited your e-mail and address. We try to encourage people not to give these sort of details publically for obvioius reasons. All the best. Botz

#19
nebula

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The coming in judgment upon the City of First Century Jerusalem was a real "coming of the Lord".

And Jesus coming down from Heaven on a white horse was actually the Roman army? :hmmm:

#20
Bold Believer

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The coming in judgment upon the City of First Century Jerusalem was a real "coming of the Lord".

And Jesus coming down from Heaven on a white horse was actually the Roman army? :hmmm:


NO Nebula. I have touched on this before, but in case you missed it, here is the understanding again.

First century believers would have been familiar with Roman victory parades, in which the Roman general would lead the procession of his army down the street while riding a white horse. All of the rest of his army would be behind him, and last but not least, all of the captives. You can see how Christ's victory over the Roman beast (Daniel's 4th kingdom) and its apostate Jewish lackey the false prophet (Sanhedrin) is portrayed in the very same manner.

Christ on the white horse leading the procession
The heavenly armies behind Him
Satan being laid hold of as a captive and thrown into prison

It's pretty simple.




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